Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Paddywiggum

Godge wrote: »

No it is on the whole 67k. He does raise an interesting point though.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/circulars/circular2009/circ282009.pdf

ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL

€65,185 €67,541 €69,884 €72,235 €74,581 €75,934 €78,302¹ €80,678

ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL

€61,966 €64,257 €66,519 €68,748 €70,978 €72,268 €74,514¹ €76,768


Look at the two grades above. Because it is a promotion grade there are likely to be both pre- and post-1995 people on the grade depending on how long it has taken them to reach this grade. The first one is 20/19 the value of the second one because it is post-1995 while the other is pre-1995.

Applying the agreement would mean that the second point of the post-1995 grade would be cut by €2,541 while the second point of the pre-1995 grade would not be cut at all. In order to maintain the parity between the grades, they would both need to be cut by the same percentage amount or both left alone - that is the type of detail and anomaly for which clarification may not come until a circular is issued in a few weeks.

can you point to a report clarifying this please? i was under impression it is only on earnings above 65000

donalg1

Rightwing wrote: »

Is it not the amount over €65K that is taxed? i.e. 5% * 2,000 in your case?

I think that depends on which report you read, there seems to be some conflicting info being released by the different Unions. Those Unions that agreed to this cant even decipher what they have agreed to so how they are going to get their members to pass it is a mystery, surely the fact they were in the meetings would mean they can clarify what actually happened in said meetings.

Seems the Govt ground them down over night and waited til they were so tired and confused that they would agree to something while not knowing what they were agreeing to. Much like what the banks did to the previous government at the time of the bank guarantee. At least this Govt is learning from the mistakes of the last!!

Seems to me that the Unions have dropped the ball here and the government have decided the best way forward is divide and conquer, only this time its not public v private its public v public.

Godge

Paddywiggum wrote: »

can you point to a report clarifying this please? i was under impression it is only on earnings above 65000

donalg1 wrote: »

I think that depends on which report you read, there seems to be some conflicting info being released by the different Unions. Those Unions that agreed to this cant even decipher what they have agreed to so how they are going to get their members to pass it is a mystery, surely the fact they were in the meetings would mean they can clarify what actually happened in said meetings.

Seems the Govt ground them down over night and waited til they were so tired and confused that they would agree to something while not knowing what they were agreeing to. Much like what the banks did to the previous government at the time of the bank guarantee. At least this Govt is learning from the mistakes of the last!!

Seems to me that the Unions have dropped the ball here and the government have decided the best way forward is divide and conquer, only this time its not public v private its public v public.

IMPACT website last night confused the situation. However, every website today is reporting that the cut is on the total amount once you are over 65k. For example, see here on IMPACT website where the section of the document under the headline "Higher Pay" is listed as "Updated: Tuesday 26th February - 10:51 am"


http://www.impact.ie/Croke-Park-Agreement/Labour-Relations-Commission-proposals-on-an-extension-to-the-Croke-Park-agreement-.htm


It then goes on to state:

"For those with salaries of €65k and greater(including allowances in the nature of pay), their total remuneration is reduced by 5.5% subject to not falling below €65k.

• Earnings (including allowances in the nature of pay) between €80,000 and €150,000 will be reduced by 8%
• Earnings (including allowances in the nature of pay) between €150,000 and €185,000 will be reduced by 9%
• Earnings (including allowances in the nature of pay) over €185,000 will be reduced by 10% "

donalg1

Godge wrote: »

IMPACT website last night confused the situation. However, every website today is reporting that the cut is on the total amount once you are over 65k. For example, see here on IMPACT website where the section of the document under the headline "Higher Pay" is listed as "Updated: Tuesday 26th February - 10:51 am"


http://www.impact.ie/Croke-Park-Agreement/Labour-Relations-Commission-proposals-on-an-extension-to-the-Croke-Park-agreement-.htm


It then goes on to state:


"For those with salaries of €65k and greater(including allowances in the nature of pay), their total remuneration is reduced by 5.5% subject to not falling below €65k.

• Earnings (including allowances in the nature of pay) between €80,000 and €150,000 will be reduced by 8%
• Earnings (including allowances in the nature of pay) between €150,000 and €185,000 will be reduced by 9%
• Earnings (including allowances in the nature of pay) over €185,000 will be reduced by 10% "

So if for example I earn €75,000, am I reduced 5.5% on €75 or on €10k?

And as for the hours to work if I work 35 hours now, do I work 39 or 37 in future, this is something else I have seen conflicted.

VirtualWorker

Godge wrote: »

IMPACT website last night confused the situation. However, every website today is reporting that the cut is on the total amount once you are over 65k. For example, see here on IMPACT website where the section of the document under the headline "Higher Pay" is listed as "Updated: Tuesday 26th February - 10:51 am"


http://www.impact.ie/Croke-Park-Agreement/Labour-Relations-Commission-proposals-on-an-extension-to-the-Croke-Park-agreement-.htm


It then goes on to state:

"For those with salaries of €65k and greater(including allowances in the nature of pay), their total remuneration is reduced by 5.5% subject to not falling below €65k.

• Earnings (including allowances in the nature of pay) between €80,000 and €150,000 will be reduced by 8%
• Earnings (including allowances in the nature of pay) between €150,000 and €185,000 will be reduced by 9%
• Earnings (including allowances in the nature of pay) over €185,000 will be reduced by 10% "

It's on gross but with a floor of €65k. So someone on €67k will be reduced by 5.5% to €63,315, except then the floor kicks in and they are *only* reduced to €65k. You need to be above €68,783 before you get the full 5.5% applied to ALL you salary. See my post here:

VirtualWorker wrote: »

The IT is reporting the Taoiseach's €200k will reduce by €14.65k so I figure it works like this: his first 80k is reduced by 5.5% (4.4k), next 70k (up to 150k) by 8% (5.6k), next 35 (to 185) by 9% (3.15k) and final 15 (to 200) by 10% (1.5k) giving 14.65k reduction. So it is marginally applied.

VirtualWorker

donalg1 wrote: »

So if for example I earn €75,000, am I reduced 5.5% on €75 or on €10k?

And as for the hours to work if I work 35 hours now, do I work 39 or 37 in future, this is something else I have seen conflicted.

You new salary is €70,875 and you have to work more.

iba

donalg1 wrote: »

So if for example I earn €75,000, am I reduced 5.5% on €75 or on €10k?

And as for the hours to work if I work 35 hours now, do I work 39 or 37 in future, this is something else I have seen conflicted.

You will work 37

People on 35 go to 37

people on 37 go to 39

majimbo

So my gilt edged pension of €129 per week after 32 yrs in a local authority grade will remain gilt edged????
I hope ISME dont mind


Yippeee!

SB2013

Riskymove wrote: »

but only one increment is delayed for people <35k and 2 for those between 35k-65k

so there is not any ongoing saving just the inital (or 2) 3 months delay

so at best a 3 month saving on an increment for the next 2 years

a couple of hundred euro per person affected

I'm not sure if you have it right there. The increment will be delayed by 3-6 months, so will the following years, and the year after, and the year after etc...

I know it's "only a couple of hundred to you" but losing hundreds is quite a big deal for a lot of people.

Godge

SB2013 wrote: »

I'm not sure if you have it right there. The increment will be delayed by 3-6 months, so will the following years, and the year after, and the year after etc...

I know it's "only a couple of hundred to you" but losing hundreds is quite a big deal for a lot of people.

And that couple of hundred is saved every year until the person reaches the top of their scale. Not a lot but when you multiply it by every public servant....

UrbanFret

Rightwing wrote: »

Well I think it's good news for the country as a whole. I can't see what good strikes etc will do for anyone.

Obviously not in the public sector then!:rolleyes:

tayto lover

donalg1 wrote: »

So if for example I earn €75,000, am I reduced 5.5% on €75 or on €10k?

And as for the hours to work if I work 35 hours now, do I work 39 or 37 in future, this is something else I have seen conflicted.

And they want Property Tax and Water Tax from you on top of that Donal.;)

UrbanFret

Approx 250,000 one-way plane tickets would have solved the hole in the public finances in double quick time!;)

tayto lover

UrbanFret wrote: »

Approx 250,000 one-way plane tickets would have solved the hole in the public finances in double quick time!;)

There's not that many politicians.

UrbanFret

tayto lover wrote: »

There's not that many politicians.

:D:D:D:D

Have I got this wrong? ..If you are a clerical worker in the public services and earn 35k you will lose x amount in the new agrement, however if you are a nurse on 35k you will loose x amount plus your double time on Sunday will be down and you will lose twilight payments so even though both of the above work in the public services on the same salaries one will lose considerable more just because they work unsociable hours while.

RGS

mariaalice wrote: »

Have I got this wrong? ..If you are a clerical worker in the public services and earn 35k you will lose x amount in the new agrement, however if you are a nurse on 35k you will loose x amount plus your double time on Sunday will be down and you will lose twilight payments so even though both of the above work in the public services on the same salaries one will lose considerable more just because they work unsociable hours while

Not correct the clerical worker does not suffer any pay cut, they have to work 2 hrs longer per week as will the nurse but the nurse loses on twilight pay, overtime and sunday premium pay.

No clerical staff earning under €65K will suffer a pay cut.

Riskymove

SB2013 wrote: »

I'm not sure if you have it right there. The increment will be delayed by 3-6 months, so will the following years, and the year after, and the year after etc...

I know it's "only a couple of hundred to you" but losing hundreds is quite a big deal for a lot of people.

no its just one increment for those under 35k

and 2 for 35-65

Increments
IMPACT successfully moved management from its opening position, which was that all increments should be frozen until the end of 2016. Instead:

Public servants who earn less than €35,000 a year will receive their next increment when it falls due and then wait 15 months (rather than 12) before any following increment is paid.

Public servants who earn between €35,000 and €65,000 will receive their next increment when it falls due, then wait 15 months (rather than 12) before any following increment is paid, and then 15 months (rather than 12) before any further increment is paid.

Public servants who are now at the top of their scale will forfeit six days leave, or the pay equivalent over the lifetime of the agreement (ie, before the end of 2016).

my point about a couple of hundred euro is about how little it will save overall rather than what it means to an individual

queensinead

VirtualWorker wrote: »

You new salary is €70,875 and you have to work more.

Having cut-off points or thresholds is inherently unfair, because it penalises people who are ambitious or who take on extra responsibility or go for promotion.

You should not be singled out for punishment just because you earn 65k, while someone on 55k is left untouched. Better to cut a little bit from every salary, increasing as you reach the top

I bet any Deputy_Principal of a school who is on 72K and who gave up his long holidays and is dealing with hassle from students, parents and teachers, is now wishing he just took life a bit easier and stayed on in the classroom.

There is often a reason why people earn more. They may have won promotion because they showed willingness to work hard and carry responsibility beyond what their colleagues were willing to do.

iba

UrbanFret wrote: »

Approx 250,000 one-way plane tickets would have solved the hole in the public finances in double quick time!;)

Ah so you dont want any teachers, doctors, nurses, guards, firemen, visa officers, immigration officers, health offials, passport officers, forensic science officers!!!!!!!!

I think it will be you who will be buying the one way ticket

iba

RGS wrote: »

mariaalice wrote: »

Have I got this wrong? ..If you are a clerical worker in the public services and earn 35k you will lose x amount in the new agrement, however if you are a nurse on 35k you will loose x amount plus your double time on Sunday will be down and you will lose twilight payments so even though both of the above work in the public services on the same salaries one will lose considerable more just because they work unsociable hours while

Not correct the clerical worker does not suffer any pay cut, they have to work 2 hrs longer per week as will the nurse but the nurse loses on twilight pay, overtime and sunday premium pay.

No clerical staff earning under €65K will suffer a pay cut.

Actually there are some people under 65K who will take a pay cut and that is anybody who is at the top of their pay scale - they have to give back half of their last increment. Roughly about €500 to €700 But its another very strange thing because a person who is on the 2nd last step of their pay scale dosent have a cut but just has their next increment deffered by 3 months.

So if I understand this correctly, the person on the 2nd last rung of the ladder now will be getting paid more than the person who is on the top of their pay-scale now after their next increment. Very very strange.

And there are a lot of people on the top of their pay-scales now because in most Departments there has been no promotions for 5/6 years.

Some Departments like Taoiseach and Finance have had promotions though. It is not an even playing field.

Farmer Pudsey

creedp wrote: »

I don't think anyone is arguing about this. I haven't seen any PS on here arguing that senior admin staff should get OT/allowances for extra hours. The same doesn't go for front line staff, e.g. Consultants on €200k plus get OT/allowances.



This has been done to death in my opinion - it is my understanding that the 35 hour week does not include a lunchtime - as the std lunchtime in the private sector is an hour so the std PS wk week is 35 + 5 = 40 hours. Nothing really to see here...

Riskymove wrote: »

correct 35 hours net of breaks

now 37/39 net of breaks

I have seen very few workplaces in the private sector that count the lunch break as part of the workinh week. There are a few where staff may be required to remain on site at nursing time for safty reasons and in that situtation yes.

The standard PS service Working week is not 35+5 nurses work 37 as do other and that is not including lunch breaks.

This is a situtation in the PS that has not been rectified until a start was made now.

Paddywiggum

wasnt the full agreement supposed to be published today? any sign of it??

murphaph

I don't see the €1bn savings tbh but if they can achieve them then great.

I am happy to see more realistic working hours becoming (slowly) the norm in the public service, but IMO people on full time contracts of 35 hours (and less) should have been moved onto 39 hours with this set of changes, but it's going the right way at least.

I do hope the detail reveals that things like job sharing will be severely restricted because unless you are doing a very specific type of work, then 2 people sharing the job will not be as productive as one person doing it alone.

barneystinson

iba wrote: »

Ah so you dont want any teachers, doctors, nurses, guards, firemen, visa officers, immigration officers, health offials, passport officers, forensic science officers!!!!!!!!

I think it will be you who will be buying the one way ticket

Think you may have missed the irony in his post there iba...

murphaph

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I have seen very few workplaces in the private sector that count the lunch break as part of the workinh week. There are a few where staff may be required to remain on site at nursing time for safty reasons and in that situtation yes.

The standard PS service Working week is not 35+5 nurses work 37 as do other and that is not including lunch breaks.

This is a situtation in the PS that has not been rectified until a start was made now.

Can someone clarify, a 39 hour week in the PS (in a mon-fri, non-shift job) is 39 hours of WORK and the breaks are you're own time, right?

iba

murphaph wrote: »

Can someone clarify, a 39 hour week in the PS (in a mon-fri, non-shift job) is 39 hours of WORK and the breaks are you're own time, right?

Most Civil Servants work 6.57 a day - make it simple, 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, 35 hours a week.

Lunch break is on top of that

A lot of people are complaining about the hours civil servants work. Perhaps someone could give a comparrison of what a person in say KPMG works or Allianz insurance etc other office jobs

Stheno

iba wrote: »

Perhaps someone could give a comparrison of what a person in say KPMG works or Allianz insurance etc other office jobs

Most jobs I've had have been 39-40 working hours plus lunch hour in the private sector. so e.g. 8:30 - 5:30 with an hour for lunch

donalg1

tayto lover wrote: »

And they want Property Tax and Water Tax from you on top of that Donal.;)

If I was on that type of money tayto I wouldnt care.

Head The Wall

Stheno wrote: »

Most jobs I've had have been 39-40 working hours plus lunch hour in the private sector. so e.g. 8:30 - 5:30 with an hour for lunch

Same here, usually if you get an hour for lunch its unpaid but if you get half an hour its paid for. Its different for every business depending on their requirements