Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Head The Wall · 26-02-2013 10:51PM

Midnight Sundance wrote: »

Yes she has a mortgage on that wage. And to be honest , mortgage or no mortgage , that point is mute. She will be losing a substantial amount of a small wage which can mean a huge difference to someone on low earnings.

The fact that she has a mortgage on that wage severly restricts her options so it is not a moot point. Did she get the mortgage on the basis of her wage always going up?

Vizzy wrote: »

Cue the like of ISME who can now pressurize their employees with "if the PS can contribute an extra €1Bn,then you can reduce your pay by a bit or else we won't be able to create new jobs"
and the dance will start all over again !!

I genuinely hope that I will be proved wrong.

How about your bankrupt employer concerns itself with it's own financial issues, they don't seem to be doing a great job a the moment. Other companies can look after their own interests.

Rightwing wrote: »

That's not the way the real world works at all.

Struggling shops/companies cut wages to try and stay afloat. They ain't too concerned with the contributions of the PS.

Exactly, seemingly everyone should keep paying the PS more than what most of them are worth to "keep the economy alive"

Rightwing · 26-02-2013 10:52PM

Vizzy wrote: »

If this is the case,why are ISME literally drooling at the thought of a cut to PS wages ?

By the way,did you come up with the €1 Bn saving from County Councils yet ?

Many firms which ISME represent are on the verge of going under. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work that out. They don't want wage inflation. They want costs coming down,,,rent,,rate,,,insurance etc.

Most MNCs are well able to offer pay increases. The private sector is 2 very different worlds.

Philipblue12 · 26-02-2013 10:53PM

Joke park 2

They promised to revisit and restore pay for lower paid workers once croke park started to deliver significant savings. And yes it was in writting! Haven't heard one dickie bird about since. They're all liars As far as I'm concerned and if you believe this is the end of the cuts your going to be bitterly disappointed.

Now that Howlin is finished with the Public Sector and has promised not to touch them again what happens if things don't go as planned and the Government needs more money?
Will they break their other promise of not rising taxes?[/Quote]

Vizzy · 26-02-2013 10:57PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Many firms which ISME represent are on the verge of going under. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work that out. They don't want wage inflation. They want costs coming down,,,rent,,rate,,,insurance,wage costs etc.

Most MNCs are well able to offer pay increases. The private sector is 2 very different worlds.

I am well aware that MNC's are able to offer pay increases(and the best of luck to them),I never mentioned them though.

And the €1 Bn saving from the Councils ?

Rightwing · 26-02-2013 11:02PM

Vizzy wrote: »

I am well aware that MNC's are able to offer pay increases(and the best of luck to them),I never mentioned them though.

And the €1 Bn saving from the Councils ?

Well that renders your whole point redundant.

We're in the midst of the greatest recession this country has ever seen, survival is the name of the game for person, company and government.

I hope we all get through it. It will be tough regardless of wha sector you are in.

26-02-2013 11:50PM

Vizzy wrote: »

I am well aware that MNC's are able to offer pay increases(and the best of luck to them)

The ones that survived are possibly giving wage increases but most of them had wage freezes or big cuts since 2007 ( A wage freeze in normal society means a wage freeze, no increments, no bonuses etc, etc)the ones that didn't make a profit went out of business and fired all their employees. That is the rules of industry work harder to make a profit or lose your job.....most of those people are now trying to make a wage in the UK, Canada or Australia to feed their families left at home.

Listening to people complain about a 3 month wage freeze or having to work a 39 hour week is sickening for alot of people that don't work in that bubble.

Without more industry/production we will never get out of this hole or be able to pay PS current wage levels, if wage demands outstrip what industry is willing to pay then we will have no industry.

Farmer Pudsey · 27-02-2013 12:34AM

Philipblue12 wrote: »

Joke park 2

They promised to revisit and restore pay for lower paid workers once croke park started to deliver significant savings. And yes it was in writting! Haven't heard one dickie bird about since. They're all liars As far as I'm concerned and if you believe this is the end of the cuts your going to be bitterly disappointed.

Now that Howlin is finished with the Public Sector and has promised not to touch them again what happens if things don't go as planned and the Government needs more money?
Will they break their other promise of not rising taxes?

[/QUOTE]

All the promises made in 2009/2010 were on the premise that we would get growth from 2012 on about 3%. we have not got that and it could be late 2014 before the economy starts to grow. Also as MNC now are finding other countries to book there profits through rather than our 12.5% corp tax rate.

So we are seeing no major rise in tax revenue. The reality is that the domestic private sector is as flat as a pancake and it may be a while before it recovers.

Where all the magic money will come from to pay for some peoples wish lists is a good question. Maybe we will get Cinderella to as the good fairy for a couple of billion.

Oooops a couple billion would not be enough.

Farmer Pudsey · 27-02-2013 12:38AM

Deleted User wrote: »

The ones that survived are possibly giving wage increases but most of them had wage freezes or big cuts since 2007 ( A wage freeze in normal society means a wage freeze, no increments, no bonuses etc, etc)the ones that didn't make a profit went out of business and fired all their employees. That is the rules of industry work harder to make a profit or lose your job.....most of those people are now trying to make a wage in the UK, Canada or Australia to feed their families left at home.

Listening to people complain about a 3 month wage freeze and having to work a 37 hour instead of 35 week is sickening for alot of people that don't work in that bubble.

Without more industry/p hourroduction we will never get out of this hole or be able to pay PS current wage levels, if wage demands outstrip what industry is willing to pay then we will have no industry.

I have a slight correction Mayo

Missyelliot2 · 27-02-2013 12:50AM

Simplistic I know.....but Mr. Dunne/Fingleton/Dunne/Aherne/McCreevy et al?????? Giving us the two fingers....maybe that's what the government need to be challenged on?
Will be down 60Euros per week, so this is not a political issue. Have no idea where or how we will meet bills. Feel like chucking keys back to bank, but we love our home and are working really hard to keep it. But these guys are are in this together. I will never vote FF...but WHAT and WHO is left? It's shameful

BaronVon · 27-02-2013 12:59AM

I think the nurses have been hit disproportionately, and frontline workers losing some shift allowances, I will be down €132 a month, or €1715 a year, pre-tax.

But the Defences Forces are being hammered. They've lost Saturday and Sunday allowance, Instructor's allowance, a number of other duty allowances. Any remaining allowances are being reduced by 10%, and any new recruits will be paid €67 a week less, creating a 2-tier employment system.

And PDFORRA can't say boo about it.......

I feel for those guys!

27-02-2013 01:30AM

Godge wrote: »

King Canute knew he wasn't wrong too - he drowned.

Not really relevant to the topic, I know, but in fact Canute wasn't wrong and he didn't drown.

Just saying.

Stheno · 27-02-2013 01:37AM

infacteh wrote: »

I think the nurses have been hit disproportionately, and frontline workers losing some shift allowances, I will be down €132 a month, or €1715 a year, pre-tax.

But the Defences Forces are being hammered. They've lost Saturday and Sunday allowance, Instructor's allowance, a number of other duty allowances. Any remaining allowances are being reduced by 10%, and any new recruits will be paid €67 a week less, creating a 2-tier employment system.

And PDFORRA can't say boo about it.......

I feel for those guys!

Are you down due to Sunday overtime, and if you are did you read the draft agreement that says that 50% of the loss will be reimbursed for those who habitually work Sundays?

Yes the Defence forces are being hammered. I see this as a fairly strategic agreement that the government have proposed, they have left basic pay (something the private sector understand and the public do not in my opinion) alone for those under 65k.

They have tiered cuts to hit the higher paid more on basic pay and allowances (not overtime)

They have hit the likes of the Defence Forces hard as they cannot strike etc.

It's been stated by the unions that the alternate was a blanket 7.5% paycut across the board.

Which would be preferable to you? Impose that paycut, or put an agreement as proposed and negotiated by the unions in place while hitting some sectors harder than others, or impose an (imo unfair) across the board 7.5% paycut which would severely impact on lower paid public sector workers who for the most part have not been hit as hard in this deal?

BaronVon · 27-02-2013 09:46AM

Stheno wrote: »

Yes the Defence forces are being hammered. I see this as a fairly strategic agreement that the government have proposed, they have left basic pay (something the private sector understand and the public do not in my opinion) alone for those under 65k.

They have tiered cuts to hit the higher paid more on basic pay and allowances (not overtime)

Which would be preferable to you? Impose that paycut, or put an agreement as proposed and negotiated by the unions in place while hitting some sectors harder than others, or impose an (imo unfair) across the board 7.5% paycut which would severely impact on lower paid public sector workers who for the most part have not been hit as hard in this deal?

The problem with allowances is that anyone who receives them sees them as core pay. After all, they are pensionable!

The real question is which wrist as you going to cut? Personally, I'd prefer a cut in basic wage. Allowances have taken us years to achieve, and have the reason for the allowances recognised. When they're gone, they'll be a lot harder to get back!

BaronVon · 27-02-2013 09:52AM

Stheno wrote: »

Are you down due to Sunday overtime, and if you are did you read the draft agreement that says that 50% of the loss will be reimbursed for those who habitually work Sundays?

I see that, but not until 2015. Forgive me if I seem cynical, but is that an election year....?

antoobrien · 27-02-2013 09:56AM

infacteh wrote: »

I see that, but not until 2015. Forgive me if I seem cynical, but is that an election year....?

No the election - assuming we get a full 5 year term - will be Feb/Mar 2016.

2015 is the year that we're supposed to exit the excessive deficit procedure (still subject to EU targets of 3% GDP - currently approx €5bn).

Philipblue12 · 27-02-2013 11:24AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

All the promises made in 2009/2010 were on the premise that we would get growth from 2012 on about 3%. we have not got that and it could be late 2014 before the economy starts to grow. Also as MNC now are finding other countries to book there profits through rather than our 12.5% corp tax rate.

So we are seeing no major rise in tax revenue. The reality is that the domestic private sector is as flat as a pancake and it may be a while before it recovers.

Where all the magic money will come from to pay for some peoples wish lists is a good question. Maybe we will get Cinderella to as the good fairy for a couple of billion.

Oooops a couple billion would not be enough.

Makeway ladies and gentlmen and let the Begrudger brigade through....

barneystinson · 27-02-2013 11:57AM

infacteh wrote: »

I think the nurses have been hit disproportionately, and frontline workers losing some shift allowances, I will be down €132 a month, or €1715 a year, pre-tax

Surely it's the effect on your take home pay that's relevant - if you're a 41% taxpayer that's about €53 a month or €640 a year (less again if you're on A-class PRSI).

murphaph · 27-02-2013 11:59AM

Vizzy wrote: »

If this is the case,why are ISME literally drooling at the thought of a cut to PS wages ?

Because small and medium enterprises are hammered with rates and whatnot to pay those PS wages, so a reduction might mean a reduction in the cost of doing business, indeed it should do, if the government are serious about job creation.

antoobrien · 27-02-2013 12:27PM

murphaph wrote: »

Because small and medium enterprises are hammered with rates and whatnot to pay those PS wages, so a reduction might mean a reduction in the cost of doing business, indeed it should do, if the government are serious about job creation.

Also the reduction in staff might lead to a reduction in the amount of red tape (sometime before hell freezes over) that business have to wade through.

Godge · 27-02-2013 12:29PM

Vizzy wrote: »

If this is the case,why are ISME literally drooling at the thought of a cut to PS wages ?

Because the self-employed business owners always enjoy seeing employees taking a pay cut as it means more profit, wealth and income for them.

Meauldsegosha · 27-02-2013 12:49PM

Once again political staff escape any paycuts even though they are paid from the public purse. They are not considered public or civil servants. Their pay rates haven't been touched since 2008. So Mr Polititicans son/daughter/wife/brother/sister/second cousin twice removed will continue to get paid at their 2008 salary with 8 hours gautanteed overtime 52 weeks a year.

ChRoMe · 27-02-2013 01:20PM

Godge wrote: »

Because the self-employed business owners always enjoy seeing employees taking a pay cut as it means more profit, wealth and income for them.

Or... that they can once again make payroll and not have to start making people redundant.

Geuze · 27-02-2013 01:32PM

Geuze wrote: »

It's good to see PS pensions being cut.

PS workers took too much of the pain compared to PS pensioners.

A typical retired teacher on 700 pw / 3000 pm / 36k pa pension can afford to take a bigger cut.

I would actually have cut PS pensions by more, myself.

Brutal, PS worker over 65k cut by 5.5%.

BUT, PS pensioners cut by just 2%.

Yet again, they get off lighter, not spreading the pain fairly.

2% off a teacher's 700 pw pension is 14 euro per week.

Rightwing · 27-02-2013 01:45PM

Geuze wrote: »

Brutal, PS worker over 65k cut by 5.5%.

BUT, PS pensioners cut by just 2%.

Yet again, they get off lighter, not spreading the pain fairly.

2% off a teacher's 700 pw pension is 14 euro per week.

I fail to see what's brutal about a 5.5% for over €65K ?

kippy · 27-02-2013 01:47PM

Rightwing wrote: »

I fail to see what's brutal about a 5.5% for over €65K ?

I think the poster was pointing out the difference between the 5.5% on people who currently work and 2% cuts on pensions.

Rightwing · 27-02-2013 02:05PM

kippy wrote: »

I think the poster was pointing out the difference between the 5.5% on people who currently work and 2% cuts on pensions.

Those cuts on pensions are very fair. You don't want a situation whereby someone who paid into a pension scheme all their lives ends up on the same as someone who spent their entire life on the dole.

Scofflaw · 27-02-2013 02:18PM

kippy wrote: »

I think the poster was pointing out the difference between the 5.5% on people who currently work and 2% cuts on pensions.

Those who are working in general have the option to move jobs, work more hours, etc if their new income is insufficient, those on pensions generally don't. It's generally fairer to cut more from those who can respond more flexibly.

cordially,
Scofflaw

kippy · 27-02-2013 02:27PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Those cuts on pensions are very fair. You don't want a situation whereby someone who paid into a pension scheme all their lives ends up on the same as someone who spent their entire life on the dole.

What?

We're talking about pensions over 32500 per annum here........

kippy · 27-02-2013 02:30PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

Those who are working in general have the option to move jobs, work more hours, etc if their new income is insufficient, those on pensions generally don't. It's generally fairer to cut more from those who can respond more flexibly.

cordially,
Scofflaw

We're talking about pensions over 32500 per annum here though, aren't we?
(I'd also point out pensioners, have numerous options for extra income, possibly more than those who work. Indeed pensioners tend to get plenty of work if an when they want it, in certain areas)

AlexisM · 27-02-2013 03:17PM

Public sector pensions went up in line with public sector increases (benchmarking etc. - same %s applied to retired as active) so it seems fair that public sector pensions should reduce in line with public sector decreases.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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