PDC vs BDO - Discuss

Felexicon

repsol wrote: »

No. I am saying that if there is another tournament with at least 20 players who could wipe their arse with the Lakeside "champion" and every previous champion has buggered off to their tournament(except crap ones like Kist that PDC didn't want), it is not a World Championship.If the averages are nowhere near those of the PDC it is not a World Championship.Some of the players on BDO are brilliant,but there are too many no hopers so the standard of early rounds is poor.James Wade for example has never won a World Title but he would walk the BDO,no problem as would Van Gerwin

EEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRHHHHHH Wrong! Van Gerwin was in the BDO and never won the world title.

Also please point out these 20 players in the PDC who would "wipe their arse" with the Lakeside champion.
Have you ever watched the Grand Slam of Darts. Not alot of arse wiping in that competition.

Lastly it's not a case of the PDC not wanting Kist. You do realise that you or I can sign up to be a PDC member in the morning and be given the same chance as anyone else. It's not some bizzare members only old boys club

Treble20

The BDO Lakeside World Championship is been held for the 36th time this year. It was the first and original World Darts Championship and while I'm a BDO hardcore fan I recognise that another organisation the PDC do exist and have a World Champion. To all those blow in fans to darts through Sky Sports I'd like to say please don't be ignorant and show some respect towards the BDO World Champion who deserves his title.

AugustusMinimus

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Quote me where I said 3 darts average determines who is the world champion.

I think it was you who linked the title of world champion to 3 dart averages. Here...

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

You have to be seriously deluded to consider some of the recent winners as being World Champions considering their 3 dart average vis-à-vis the PDC world champions.

AugustusMinimus

Felexicon wrote: »

Only if you are looking at 3 dart averages on a leg by leg basis will you see missed doubles make any real dent in the average. Over the course of a five set game a missed double will not even count for .5 off your average.

Don't see your point. A missed double late on in a game will affect both your 3 dart average and doubles percentage proportionally.

The only way your doubles percentage doesn't affect your 3 dart average is when you don't get a shot at a double due to your opponent no letting you get a shot.

Its actually possible to have a 3 dart average of 180 and lose a game.

Its possible to have a 3 dart average of 173.5 and lose a match.

AugustusMinimus

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it was you who linked the title of world champion to 3 dart averages. Here...

I said no such thing. I said that the 3 dart average of players at the BDO heavily undermines the assumption that the player who wins the tournament can be described as a World Champion.

AugustusMinimus

Felexicon wrote: »

EEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRHHHHHH Wrong! Van
Lastly it's not a case of the PDC not wanting Kist. You do realise that you or I can sign up to be a PDC member in the morning and be given the same chance as anyone else. It's not some bizzare members only old boys club

When did the original agreement between the BDO and PDC finish, where if you reached the semi-final of either World Championship, meant that you weren't allow switch the year after ?

Felexicon

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Don't see your point. A missed double late on in a game will affect both your 3 dart average and doubles percentage proportionally.

The only way your doubles percentage doesn't affect your 3 dart average is when you don't get a shot at a double due to your opponent no letting you get a shot.

Its actually possible to have a 3 dart average of 180 and lose a game.

Its possible to have a 3 dart average of 173.5 and lose a match.

Now you do realise you're agreeing with me now that a higher 3 dart average does not always mean a better darts player. This is directly contradicting the post you asked another poster to quote from you saying that it is a 3 dart average that determines he quality of a dart player.
You're running circles around yourself here mate

AugustusMinimus

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I said no such thing. I said that the 3 dart average of players at the BDO heavily undermines the assumption that the player who wins the tournament can be described as a World Champion.

Ha!

Okay, I'll let you off, I think you are getting bogged down in the area. Whatever you think. I guess the titles of those who won the PDC while Fitton had the record 3 dart average stands "heavily undermined" then...

Felexicon

Deleted User wrote: »

Ha!

Okay, I'll let you off, I think you are getting bogged down in the area. Whatever you think. I guess the titles of those who won the PDC while Fitton had the record 3 dart average stands "heavily undermined" then...

Someone tell Phil we have to put a star beside 5 of those world titles :pac::pac:

Crazy arguement

AugustusMinimus

Felexicon wrote: »

Now you do realise you're agreeing with me now that a higher 3 dart average does not always mean a better darts player. This is directly contradicting the post you asked another poster to quote from you saying that it is a 3 dart average that determines he quality of a dart player.
You're running circles around yourself here mate

Not true. If one player has a high 3 darts average, it drags the other player up.

3 darts average should be viewed in light of how good both players are collectively in a given match instead of looking at either player in isolation.


A player might only get an average of 95 against one player. But if he played a player of higher quality he might score a higher average due to not having to shoot as many doubles.


THis partially might explain a lot of the low 3 dart averages in the earlier rounds of the BDO but shouldn't explain lower 3 dart averages in later rounds.

Felexicon

Felexicon wrote: »

Someone tell we have to put a star beside 5 of those world titles :pac::pac:

Crazy arguement

Yep. Poor Part, Barney etc. Augustus thinks their world titles are heavily undermined, after all that darned 3 dart average record was in the hands of a BDO player until Taylor took it back, think it was in 09.

Felexicon

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Not true. If one player has a high 3 darts average, it drags the other player up.

3 darts average should be viewed in light of how good both players are collectively in a given match instead of looking at either player in isolation.

So then if player A has an average of 103 and player B has an average of 47 we should view it that both players are shíte?
That's what you're saying if we can't look at a player in isolation

AugustusMinimus

Felexicon wrote: »

So then if player A has an average of 103 and player B has an average of 47 we should view it that both players are shíte?
That's what you're saying if we can't look at a player in isolation

Not exactly what I meant.

Consideration should be taken for Player A's 3 dart average due to Players B's very poor 3 dart average.

In reality, had Player A been playing a much better player, his 3 dart average would most likely be much higher as there would be legs where he wouldn't have to shoot for doubles. Doubles bring your average down most of the time compared to throwing at treble 20.


BTW, this is why 3 dart averages usually increase as tournaments get to the latter stages.

repsol

Felexicon wrote: »

EEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRHHHHHH Wrong! Van Gerwin was in the BDO and never won the world title.

Also please point out these 20 players in the PDC who would "wipe their arse" with the Lakeside champion.
Have you ever watched the Grand Slam of Darts. Not alot of arse wiping in that competition.

Lastly it's not a case of the PDC not wanting Kist. You do realise that you or I can sign up to be a PDC member in the morning and be given the same chance as anyone else. It's not some bizzare members only old boys club

Van Gerwin played one match aged 17(youngest ever player-lost first round) and announced his move to PDC after the final that year.I know its not a boys club but PDC pursue certain players to join.You don't think Barnie was courted and rewarded for making the switch?Imagine what that was worth to the PDC with Dutch TV and sponsors. I cannot think of any top 30 player in the PDC that could not annihilate Kist,the Lakeside champion.Maybe you could suggest a few PDC players you think he could take.

repsol

repsol wrote: »

I cannot think of any top 30 player in the PDC that could not annihilate Kist,the Lakeside champion.Maybe you could suggest a few PDC players you think he could take.

Let me jog your memory.

He beat Raymond Van Barneveld and Wes Newton and "annihilated" Wayne Jones in the GSoD just a few months back, before losing to Barney in the quarter final.

You're welcome.

ArmaniJeanss

I'd definitely agree that people don't understand losing averages when a player has been well beaten.

You often hear on Sky after say Taylor has beaten Whitlock 13-3 that Whitlock averaged 101.8 so he was playing world class stuff and was unlucky to run into Phil.

Whereas what it actually means is that Whitlock was scoring 97-81-140-94 in legs, Phil was going out in 12-15 darts and Whitlock wasn't wasting lowscoring darts setting up finishes or going for doubles.

ArmaniJeanss

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'd definitely agree that people don't understand losing averages when a player has been well beaten.

You often hear on Sky after say Taylor has beaten Whitlock 13-3 that Whitlock averaged 101.8 so he was playing world class stuff and was unlucky to run into Phil.

Whereas what it actually means is that Whitlock was scoring 97-81-140-94 in legs, Phil was going out in 12-15 darts and Whitlock wasn't wasting lowscoring darts setting up finishes or going for doubles.

Agree. It's all about the winning. 9 dart averages are for fans of Sky analysis.

AugustusMinimus

Did some number crunching and double percentage indeed plays a large part in 3 dart average.

Just say a person plays 20 games. Averages 120 when shooting for treble 20.

With a 50% checkout rate, say he'll take 14 darts.

With a 33% checkout rate, he'll take 15 darts.

50% rate = 107.36 (3 dart average)
33% rate = 100.2 (3 dart average)

Doesn't matter how many games you play. Checkout rate is very important when it comes to 3 dart average.

repsol

Deleted User wrote: »

Let me jog your memory.

He beat Raymond Van Barneveld and Wes Newton and "annihilated" Wayne Jones in the GSoD just a few months back, before losing to Barney in the quarter final.

You're welcome.

Wow, a quarter final.Real world champ stuff that.
Let me jog yours.He got beaten by a very average player(Kong) yesterday!

You're welcome

AugustusMinimus

Deleted User wrote: »

Agree. It's all about the winning. 9 dart averages are for fans of Sky analysis.

You do realise to bring the losing players 3 dart average up, the winning player must have a very good 3 dart average to start with ?

repsol

repsol wrote: »

Wow, a quarter final.Real world champ stuff that.
Let me jog yours.He got beaten by a very average player(Kong) yesterday!

You're welcome

Ha ha!

No no, what you actually said was that you couldn't think of the top 30 PDC player who couldn't "annihilate" Kist. I never said he won the GSoD, or that he beat Robbie Green. A certain Phil Taylor also went out in the quarter finals...or as you would say "wow, a quarter final, real world champ stuff that"

Do you want to retract your assertion. It looks a bit silly.

AugustusMinimus

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

You do realise to bring the losing players 3 dart average up, the winning player must have a very good 3 dart average to start with ?

I do realise that not 1 competition is decided by 3 dart averages, no more than a soccer natch is decided by most chances.

AugustusMinimus

Deleted User wrote: »

I do realise that not 1 competition is decided by 3 dart averages, no more than a soccer natch is decided by most chances.

Of course it isn't.

However, it is the primary metric to the determine the standard of a tournament as a whole.

AugustusMinimus

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Of course it isn't.

However, it is the primary metric to the determine the standard of a tournament as a whole.

When? Where? Who decided this? I missed that circular.

Anyway, I'd love to have sat with you during the 2007 PDC Final as you told everyone that they weren't a patch on Fitton...

AugustusMinimus

Deleted User wrote: »

When? Where? Who decided this? I missed that circular.

What statistic should be used to determine the standard of play so ? 3 dart average is simply a stat which shows the amount of darts used per leg to get from 501 to 0. This is what the game is about isn't it ? Getting from 501 to 0 in the least amount of darts ?

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyway, I'd love to have sat with you during the 2007 PDC Final as you told everyone that they weren't a patch on Fitton...

And they weren't a patch compared to Fitton's match where he threw that average. That match is the greatest ever televised match thrown by a player. He used less darts to get to 0 from 501 on average that either Barney or Taylor in the 2007 final. Simple as that.

AugustusMinimus

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

What statistic should be used to determine the standard of play so ?

But why the need to compare by reference to one stat? It's like saying the European Championships is better than the Copa America because of what, goals scored, saves made, chances created, whatever. Is some darts tournament with a better average bigger or better than the world title in either BDO or PDC because of those averages. There are a huge amount of other factors, pressure, chance, doubles percentage etc that determine who wins a tournament, any tournament. Do you use 3 dart averages to determine the importance of tournaments within the PDC? Really?

repsol

Deleted User wrote: »

Ha ha!

No no, what you actually said was that you couldn't think of the top 30 PDC player who couldn't "annihilate" Kist. I never said he won the GSoD, or that he beat Robbie Green. A certain Phil Taylor also went out in the quarter finals...or as you would say "wow, a quarter final, real world champ stuff that"

Do you want to retract your assertion. It looks a bit silly.

I think anyone with any knowledge of darts will be able to make up their own minds about who the "silly" person on this thread is.The difference is that Phil Taylor,The World Champion would regard a quarter final exit as a stain on his CV while you are using a 1/4 final defeat as a highlight of Kist's career( which it sadly is and ranks above winning Lakeside).Your arguments about averages show a lack of understanding of the game.Is it coincidental that the players with the best averages usually finish at the top and those with lowest averages loose in early rounds?An average of 100 in a match has been done 59 times in the PDC and only 20 times in BDO despite the BDO being in existence longer.All this crap about Daryll Fittons average in a match fails to take into account that he can score quite heavily in a match and can beat some of the best "on his day",he is inconsistent in tournaments and is just as likely to not turn up.

Paully D

''Tweeeeeeeenty six''

AugustusMinimus

Deleted User wrote: »

But why the need to compare by reference to one stat? It's like saying the European Championships is better than the Copa America because of what, goals scored, saves made, chances created, whatever. Is some darts tournament with a better average bigger or better than the world title in either BDO or PDC because of those averages. There are a huge amount of other factors, pressure, chance, doubles percentage etc that determine who wins a tournament, any tournament. Do you use 3 dart averages to determine the importance of tournaments within the PDC? Really?

Double's percentage is incorporated into 3 dart average as I proved above.

The object of the game is to get from 501 to 0 in the least amount of darts. 3 darts average is another way of showing how many darts a player has used to get from 501 to 0.

3 darts average directly shows how good you are at darts. Goals scored, saves made are completely different in that they form only 1 facet of the game and are useless in comparing different tournaments.


A better example would be 2 100m races. The winner of one runs a 9.7 while the other runs a 10.1 Which would you consider to be the better sprinter ?

repsol

repsol wrote: »

I think anyone with any knowledge of darts will be able to make up their own minds about who the "silly" person on this thread is.

I agree, the person who claimed Kist would be "annihilated" by anyone on the top 30 in the PDC and forgot that he recently beat some of that top 30 in competition.

But I thoroughly enjoy your digging since then!