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Do people enjoy their own weddings?

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    #92
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    pwurple wrote: »
    The next wedding I will be at is a jewish catholic one, and I hope there are no snivelling bitter guests turning their noses up and saying the wedding makes them SICK, because the bride doesn't keep kosher, or that the groom only goes to mass at funerals, weddings and christmas. If I heard them say anything of the kind I would be asking them to politely leave.

    if it isn't your wedding you would have no right whatsoever to ask other guests to leave, and by doing so you would probably be spoiling the day for the couple more so than any comments made by those guests.


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    #93
    Orchidgirl
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭Orchidgirl


    Woke up this morning freaked out and its not for months!


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    #94
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    pwurple wrote: »
    People's faith or lack of faith is their own business.
    The problem is though that it's not. When you have a catholic wedding your also making a commitment to bring your potential children up in the Catholic church, which you'll probably do if your having a wedding to keep relatives happy. This puts pressure on the parents of unbaptised children to get them baptised just so that they can get into their local school.

    And the local schools are still predominantly under catholic patronage, because 84% of the population considers themselves to be catholic. This high percentage also give the Catholic church a strong mandate when it comes to exercising it's views on other social issues.

    This all wouldn't be a problem if all these people were actually practising Catholics, who followed the doctrines of the church. But a significant proportion aren't and through their continuing identification of themselves and their children as Catholic are enabling an organisation who's views have very little support in modern Ireland.

    (Apologies for going further OT)


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    #95
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Wait, so
    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    84% of the population considers themselves to be catholic.
    But it's
    an organisation who's views have very little support in modern Ireland.
    ? What?

    I have three points on this.
    First of all, going by the current census, nearly half of all children are born outside marriage. In limerick it's 54.9%. There are also plenty of married people who never have children, either through choice or infertility. So blaming the governance of our schools on someones wedding venue is a bit much.

    Secondly, there are no state schools in this country. Every school is built on private land and set up privately, they then apply for public funding. Always has been this way, since the dawn of our republic. There is nothing stopping any group who wants a different type of school. Sitting on your arse, wringing your hands and expecting someone else to do it isn't how it happens though. The reason there are plenty of catholic schools is that catholic parish communities bought the land and built the schools for themselves. Feel free to do similar if so inclined. Plenty of groups have done, and continue to do so. As fellow humans, I hope we would strive to be inclusive, and make our own space in the world, rather than tearing down others who are different to ourselves.

    And finally, I question if this particularly vile attitude is reserved specifically for catholics by ex-catholics? I suspect it is a function of some kind of inner self-loathing for their own past. For some reason I doubt the same inspection of devoutness, with ensueing disapproval to the point of making them "SICK", is inflicted on their muslim, hindu, buddist or even anglican couple 'friends' weddings.


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    #96
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    pwurple wrote: »
    Secondly, there are no state schools in this country. Every school is built on private land and set up privately, they then apply for public funding. Always has been this way, since the dawn of our republic.

    Perhaps you should read up on the role of the VECs in setting up and operating community schools.


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    #97
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    I thought that wedding is a day when a couple celebrates their love and not a referndum on school policy. If it was up to me I'd take all religion out of curriculum in all public schools. It would make huge savings in education. but people should be allowed to get married as they wish. Besides should we also start demanding that people who didn't attend at least 20 masses per year shouldn't be buried by priest?


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    #98
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Besides should we also start demanding that people who didn't attend at least 20 masses per year shouldn't be buried by priest?
    I'd love a rule like that. It'd stop a la carte catholics like my parents insisting on having a sham of a requim mass funeral for family members who were atheist in life.


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    #99
    The Big Red Button
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,390 ✭✭✭The Big Red Button


    lazygal wrote: »
    I'd love a rule like that. It'd stop a la carte catholics like my parents insisting on having a sham of a requim mass funeral for family members who were atheist in life.

    Same. If I died tomorrow, my funeral would probably be a big Catholic bullshit ceremony, with some priest who's never met me in his life shiteing on about how I was such a good Catholic servant. :rolleyes:

    Fair enough, it's not like I'll be around to be bothered by it, and I guess whatever would give my parents peace and would help them through is the best thing. Still annoys me to think about it, though!

    I can't control what'll happen after I'm gone, but I sure as hell won't ever be partaking in any sham Catholic wedding, and no child of mine will be baptised (unless it's by their own choice, when they're old enough to decide for themselves.)


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    #100
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    As an atheist I don't give a damn what my funeral would be like. It will be for the living that care about me to decide how they want to say goodbye.


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    #101
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    meeeeh wrote: »
    As an atheist I don't give a damn what my funeral would be like. It will be for the living that care about me to decide how they want to say goodbye.
    I won't care either. But I'd hate my loved ones left behind to have to sit through a sham sendoff ceremony just because its seen as 'how things are done'. I've had to hear priests lamenting the 'loss of faith' of relatives who died suddenly and weren't able to 'return to the fold' and it wasn't pleasant for those of us who knew the deceased wouldn't have believed a word of the ceremony.


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    #102
    Whispered
    Registered Users Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    lazygal wrote: »
    I won't care either. But I'd hate my loved ones left behind to have to sit through a sham sendoff ceremony just because its seen as 'how things are done'.

    And what if the sham ceremony was something that would bring comfort to your family?


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    #103
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Whispered wrote: »

    And what if the sham ceremony was something that would bring comfort to your family?
    Well I won't be there to care. But I know most of my close friends and much of my family would wonder why my sendoff was done by the representative of an institution I had no respect for in life. And I'd hate to think of my loved ones having to sit through a boring mass. Luckily my husband and/or child (ren) know my wishes and won't be having such a sham ceremony.


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    #104
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    I've been to some non religious funerals and I found them a bit short and lacking in atmosphere. In the same way it's perfectly understandable why people decide for church wedding. They have more sense of occasion.


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    #105
    tomthetank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 157 ✭✭tomthetank


    lazygal wrote: »
    just because its seen as 'how things are done'.

    That's how I feel about church weddings.

    I'm late 20s and it's like the dawn of the 'wedding years' in my life with the amount of friends getting hitched, and it just irks me that no thought, consideration or creativity is put into deciding on the venue, location or how to insert personal meaning into the ceremony that aligns itself with each of the respective couples. It's just 'church wedding' - which means a religious ceremony, something that many of them have dismissed and bemoaned and mocked for as long as I've known them.

    I just find it so hypocritical and disrespectful, to feel the right to lambast the church and its teachings, frown upon it as an institution and then cherry-pick which traditions fit your needs and which don't when it comes down to it.

    OF COURSE it's easier to get married in a church, it's a crowd pleaser, it doesn't put any family noses out of joint...yada yada. But, now call me naive, but shouldn't the wedding day be primarily about the couple's vows to each other and what they actually mean, and not about doing the simplest thing for the sake of an easy life?


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    #106
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,172 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    pwurple wrote: »
    Keep an open mind and maybe understand that faith means different things to different people.
    Catholicism disagrees: one of it's central tenets is that Catholics believe what their clergy tell them to, adherents don't have the right to have their own version of faith.

    A la carte Catholics are realistically some form of Protestant but try explain that to them and see what kind of reaction you get!


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    #107
    Squ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Squ


    People go on about church weddings as if its the be all and end all..

    Its 45mins out of the whole day..


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    #108
    confusticated
    Registered Users Posts: 1,680 ✭✭✭confusticated


    Squ wrote: »
    People go on about church weddings as if its the be all and end all..

    Its 45mins out of the whole day..

    But it's the point of the whole day, whether in a church or not.


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    #109
    Whispered
    Registered Users Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    I'm actually going to bow out of this conversation now because it's upsetting me more than a chat with a bunch of internet ppl should!

    I'll just finish by saying that we had our wedding planned, abroad, just the two of us. In the space of a few months we lost a few close family members. Because of this we changed our plans to include a ceremony at home in our parish, in a way which we knew would bring some happiness to our families. It was NOT doing things for an easy life (as I said everything was already booked), it was not a "sham wedding", it was not doing things because that "is how they are usually done".

    I am not an athiest nor am I a strict catholic. However, I was very very grateful to the church and the community based around the church for the help and comfort some members of my family got when we were going through a horrible phase of our lives.

    While you might think that my way was a sham, I think saying that a wedding is just about the bride and groom is selfish. You have the rest of your life to be married, your wedding is one day. Is there anything wrong with taking other people into consideration?


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    #110
    Squ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Squ


    confusticated wrote: »
    But it's the point of the whole day, whether in a church or not.
    Suppose it depends on your perspective, but the point of our day was not the church, Im in it for the marriage, not the wedding.


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    #111
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Whispered wrote: »
    I think saying that a wedding is just about the bride and groom is selfish. You have the rest of your life to be married, your wedding is one day. Is there anything wrong with taking other people into consideration?

    I totally disagree. A wedding, much like a marriage, is about the two people marrying eachother. I think planning a wedding is like a trial run for a marriage. I've seen people give into pressure from parents about aspects of their wedding, only to then give in on things like where they should live, where they should spend Christmas, where the children should go to school and other things a couple should be deciding themselves. I've seen this happen to a very close relative and we decided, having seen what happened in that case where they were expected to give in to avoid a row or sending an adult aged in their 60s into a sulk, there was no way our parents were going to dictate to us, their adult children, about our wedding or indeed any other aspect of our lives together. We do take other people into account, but we're not a pushover. I also expect my views to be taken into account by our extended families. Respect and consideration is a two way street, despite the emotional pressure often applied by parents.


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    #112
    Whispered
    Registered Users Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    lazygal wrote: »
    A wedding, much like a marriage, is about the two people marrying eachother. I think planning a wedding is like a trial run for a marriage.

    That is where we differ then. For me my wedding was nothing more than a means to an end. 2 years on and my husband is my husband and my wedding is a distant memory.


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    #113
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Whispered wrote: »
    While you might think that my way was a sham, I think saying that a wedding is just about the bride and groom is selfish. You have the rest of your life to be married, your wedding is one day. Is there anything wrong with taking other people into consideration?

    I am exactly on the same page as you Whispered. Other people's opinions and feelings, especially your family, do matter.

    I'm delighted you have a respectful relationship with the people around you. It means they probably have the same respect for you.


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    #114
    confusticated
    Registered Users Posts: 1,680 ✭✭✭confusticated


    Squ wrote: »
    Suppose it depends on your perspective, but the point of our day was not the church, Im in it for the marriage, not the wedding.

    I meant that actually getting married was the point, it's what makes it different to just having a big party. Whether that was in the church or not makes no difference to me at all. I think we might be saying the same thing here, that getting married is the point rather than having a big day out? Sorry if I'm off on that!


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    #115
    The Big Red Button
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,390 ✭✭✭The Big Red Button


    pwurple wrote: »
    I am exactly on the same page as you Whispered. Other people's opinions and feelings, especially your family, do matter.

    I'm delighted you have a respectful relationship with the people around you. It means they probably have the same respect for you.

    I respect the beliefs of my friends and my family members. If they choose to get married in a Catholic church, I will always respect this, I will attend. It's not my place to judge whether they're 'real' or 'a la carte' Catholics; honestly, I don't even care. I really don't.

    If I ever get married, it'll be a non-religious ceremony, as I am not religious.

    I respect others' beliefs; I expect the same respect in return.

    My parents are Catholics (real Catholics, who attend mass every Sunday.) They will be disappointed in my decision to have a non-religious wedding.

    Are you seriously suggesting that I should partake in a Catholic ceremony for the sake of my parents, out of respect for them, even though I think it's all a load of bollocks?

    Surely, if anything, that shows absolute disrespect for everything they believe in?


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    #116
    Whispered
    Registered Users Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    chatterpillar wrote: »
    I respect the beliefs of my friends and my family members. If they choose to get married in a Catholic church, I will always respect this, I will attend. It's not my place to judge whether they're 'real' or 'a la carte' Catholics; honestly, I don't even care. I really don't.

    I think it is covered in your quote. You should get married in any way you want, of course, and you should respect the decision of others to do the same. Which based on your above quote you do.

    It is quite insulting to have people say your wedding is a sham, was planned because it was the easiest thing to do, was done because of pressure put on by others, was done because it is how things are usually done etc. All this said by people who don't know the first thing about the circumstances involved or reasons for the decisions.

    Even if the decision is based on something as superficial as "I've always wanted a big white wedding in a pretty church". Well that is their decision to make and it's not for anybody else to judge that. (as you said chatterpillar)


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    #117
    tomthetank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 157 ✭✭tomthetank


    Whispered wrote: »

    It is quite insulting to have people say your wedding is a sham,

    I don't think anyone here has said that though?

    As far as I'm concerned, no marriage based on love is a sham. A sham marriage would be one committed for the wrong reasons; money, fear, obtaining a visa, etc.

    I'm just coming from the perspective of a frequent wedding-goer who is finding herself increasingly frustrated with the same weddings in the same churches with the same religious ceremonies that I know for a fact none of the brides or grooms have believed in or attended or worshipped at or respected for most of their adult lives and have been quite vocal about that, up until the Big White Wedding Day.

    I'm just challenging a notion that seems to be typical of many facets of Irish life, 'ah sure don't want to upset the neighbours', that I personally think is quite dangerous when it comes to important parts of society that may be in need of reform - politics, or yes, religion.

    Following tradition for the sake of it despite a belief to the contrary of where that tradition was born seems to me to not be true to oneself, maybe comparable to voting for a particular political party without exercising any critical thinking because that's the way your family always voted.


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    #118
    Whispered
    Registered Users Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    tomthetank wrote: »
    As far as I'm concerned, no marriage based on love is a sham. A sham marriage would be one committed for the wrong reasons; money, fear, obtaining a visa, etc.

    I specifically said wedding rather than marriage because I totally agree with you. A wedding does not make the marriage, yet it's been said on the thread that the wedding is a trial run for marriage and people keep on suggesting that someone would choose to have a wedding in a church (with no strong beliefs) simply due to pressure from family or for an easy life etc. This is not always the case. Even if it is the case, well so be it.
    tomthetank wrote: »
    I'm just coming from the perspective of a frequent wedding-goer who is finding herself increasingly frustrated with the same weddings in the same churches with the same religious ceremonies that I know for a fact none of the brides or grooms have believed in or attended or worshipped at or respected for most of their adult lives and have been quite vocal about that, up until the Big White Wedding Day.

    But why do you care enough for other peoples weddings to frustrate you? You don't get any say in how they plan their weddings so maybe just relax and enjoy the day, or if it so frustrating to you, make your excuses and don't go. I wouldn't like to think of a guest sitting at my wedding feeling frustrated and looking at us thinking bad things rather than wishing us well on our wedding day.
    tomthetank wrote: »
    Following tradition for the sake of it despite a belief to the contrary of where that tradition was born seems to me to not be true to oneself, maybe comparable to voting for a particular political party without exercising any critical thinking because that's the way your family always voted.

    You don't know why people made the decision to have their weddings as they did in the majority of cases. Maybe they have thought about it, discussed it and decided to have it a certain way for reasons half the guests don't know about. Maybe the bride wants a big white wedding in a pretty church and that's as far as their thinking goes. That's fair enough, it's up to them to make that decision.

    You can of course employ all the critical thinking you want for your own wedding, I'm sure it would be different, unique and special and I genuinely hope your guests are happy for you to have you wedding day as you want to have it.


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    #119
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    chatterpillar wrote: »
    Are you seriously suggesting that I should partake in a Catholic ceremony for the sake of my parents, out of respect for them, even though I think it's all a load of bollocks?

    Of course not. But I hope you would also not insult another couples wedding by saying that it makes you "SICK" if they were not regular enough church goers for your standards.

    That is what I was addressing in this thread... It's only 15 or 20 posts back. I wouldn't give two hoots about whatever choice you made, or for whatever reason. But to turn up to someones wedding and then say it made you sick. yikes. Maybe they wanted to make their recently widowed dad happy by having it in a church? Maybe they actually are a bit religious, and were just fitting in with a gang of mates saying they were not. who knows, who cares, it is personal and none of our business.


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    #120
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,506 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This post has been deleted.


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    #121
    Eviledna
    Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭Eviledna


    Whispered wrote: »

    Even if the decision is based on something as superficial as "I've always wanted a big white wedding in a pretty church". Well that is their decision to make and it's not for anybody else to judge that. (as you said chatterpillar)

    This. One thing that really is the height of hypocrisy is non-religious people getting on their high horse about other people's diluted, half baked, ala carte [insert derogatory name here] approaches to a wedding. To me dictating to others on how they should therefore declare their stance in a non-religious ceremony is as bad as fundamentalist religious people saying they'll go to hell for it! IMO, it's neither Christian if that applies, or secular if that applies, to judge either way. If you don't care about the religon, why should you care if someone takes a wholly half assed approach to it? Not everyone needs to fight to be recognised as atheist/agnostic/non religious.

    There are many people, like me, who are very conflicted about how the feel about the church. On one hand, they grew up with it and their notion of a wedding day involves it, as it is all they ever knew and is baked into their expectations/dreams of the day. On the other hand, they are disgusted and appalled by the scandals in the church, their attitude to women, etc. But they still feel connected to some/most of the Christian teachings, and possibly even the buildings from their childhood. An alternate wedding e.g. Humanist would not be quite the same, civil ceremony too secular etc. There are many people who feel this way. So they put up with the parts they disagree with because there is no other option to make real what they really want for their wedding day.

    It's far too simplistic to say if you don't believe then don't sign up, because there is no 50/50 option, it's all or nothing, no supply to match this demand. There should be, but there isn't. So to judge conflicted people in that way, particularly if you aren't even frigging religious yourself, is just, well, ridiculous.


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