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P_1

GreeBo wrote: »

Two ways to look at that.
Firstly, remember that this ranger has already warned you about raking the bunkers.

The next time he finds you not raking one he has a number of options:

1) Remove you from the course (a ban)
2) Warn you more severely (red card)
3) Warn you again "can you lads not find the rake?" (for the hard of hearing)
4) Dear sirs, please try harder to rake the bunkers (another soft on thread warning)

Now remember that this ranger is a volunteer and has to deal with repeat non-rakers on a daily basis.

Fair point. Options 1 and 2 are logical steps that don't really have any potentially emotive language to get misinterpreted. Options 3 and 4 leave you in the potentially misinterpreted emotive language trap though. Perhaps I am misinterpreting things but they do strike me as being somewhat passive-aggressive (an understandably easy trap to fall into given people repeatedly ignoring warnings and the like). Perhaps as a response to misinterpreting frustration as passive aggression people up their own passive aggression and we end up with bannings, cards and general ill will all round.

These can come across as making this place seem rather unfriendly to post in (I know myself that I've mainly kept my powder dry here as an indirect result of this). When you have two sides being aggressive to somebody like this it either ends up as a total mess or one side blinks first and tones things down.

I'm kinda rambling here at this stage mind

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Part of the problem is context. If the ranger rolled up and went the hard of hearing approach to my playing partner and I didn't know he had been told many times I would think the ranger was OTT.

Same with a post like that in a thread. There could be loads of deleted posts and hence you feel the need to get tougher but if I click in and see "hard of hearing" I don't know whats preceded it and think that's a bit much. It's the impression it gives that is the issue. Emotive language should in my opinion never be used when acting as a mod.

Its even easier on here.
You have the previous in thread warnings and you get to see the fact that posts are deleted and typically a comment as to why.

But yet people still continue to ignore and breach the rules.

Also, I would point out that moderation is specific to a user. It doesnt really matter that another user may think X was harshly dealt with etc.
Typically you have no idea what may have gone on via PM for example.
The onus is on each poster to worry about their own behaviour, report anything else and not get involved.
If you have ever been part of a DRP you will see this time and time again, dont worry about what happened to another poster, the situations while possibly appearing similar on the outside, are rarely treated the same.

GreeBo

P_1 wrote: »

Fair point. Options 1 and 2 are logical steps that don't really have any potentially emotive language to get misinterpreted. Options 3 and 4 leave you in the potentially misinterpreted emotive language trap though. Perhaps I am misinterpreting things but they do strike me as being somewhat passive-aggressive (an understandably easy trap to fall into given people repeatedly ignoring warnings and the like). Perhaps as a response to misinterpreting frustration as passive aggression people up their own passive aggression and we end up with bannings, cards and general ill will all round.

These can come across as making this place seem rather unfriendly to post in (I know myself that I've mainly kept my powder dry here as an indirect result of this). When you have two sides being aggressive to somebody like this it either ends up as a total mess or one side blinks first and tones things down.

I'm kinda rambling here at this stage mind

Moderators only get aggressive when they are ignored, repeatedly.

I've handed out way less cards in the last year than the years before for example. However the "cost" of that has been more work for the mod team in general, with more on thread warnings.

The reality is that in a "battle" caused by breaches of the charter, there is only going to be one "winner".

We are all supposed to be grown adults and expected to act like them.
If my mates down the pub are acting the mick I will tell them to cop themselves on. Its the same here. I tell people to cop themselves on if they ignore the early warnings.

Again I remind you that we are volunteers trying to maintain a peaceful, working forum. Its not something that the general posters are paying for and so have a right to a specific level/type of interaction from the mod team.

Sometimes it just takes one of us to be a hard ass for some people to cop on and fit in with the rest of the forum.

I would take issue with saying that this comes across as an unfriendly forum tbh. I think its anything but. New posters are welcomed, invited to the society, people give lifts to each other, swap clubs.
tbh I dont think there are too many other fora on here that work as well. I may be biased on that of course!

A forum that requires no moderation is much easier for all of us mods, we get to just read and post like everyone else, without having to read through every post because people are acting the dick.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

If it is such a hard life . Why do you volunteer.

I think it is more to the the point . That some volunteers like to control.

Because I like to give something back.
Also because I was asked to.

A charter controls the forum, a moderator enforces the charter.

slave1

GreeBo wrote: »

...
A forum that requires no moderation is much easier for all of us mods, we get to just read and post like everyone else, without having to read through every post because people are acting the dick...

I'm trying to stay out of this thread but if I said Mods were acting the dick I'd probably get a warning for flaming/abuse/arguing with a mod, there's a tone issue being brought up time and time again and I feel it just falls on deaf ears...

EvanCornwallis

GreeBo wrote: »

Moderators only get aggressive when they are ignored, repeatedly.


We are all supposed to be grown adults and expected to act like them.
If my mates down the pub are acting the mick I will tell them to cop themselves on. Its the same here. I tell people to cop themselves on if they ignore the early warnings.

This confirms what most knew and some have been getting at.

bustercherry

GreeBo wrote: »

Its even easier on here.
You have the previous in thread warnings and you get to see the fact that posts are deleted and typically a comment as to why.

But yet people still continue to ignore and breach the rules.

Also, I would point out that moderation is specific to a user. It doesnt really matter that another user may think X was harshly dealt with etc.
Typically you have no idea what may have gone on via PM for example.
The onus is on each poster to worry about their own behaviour, report anything else and not get involved.
If you have ever been part of a DRP you will see this time and time again, dont worry about what happened to another poster, the situations while possibly appearing similar on the outside, are rarely treated the same.

Don't forget this part lads

One point though Greebo; none of the other mods are singled out it's always just you. If we apply Occam's Razor in this context, then we all know what/who the problem is :pac:

Also on the McIlroy thing; I'm bored with the constant sh1te over his political, romance etc.. status. I think we should be able to talk about his decision but it will end up in farce with the usual suspects derailing things. It's in the charter for a good reason.

The only thing I see a problem is the no gambling talk in certain threads; I think that is a farce and just done to satisfy a voluntary Mod's un-altruistic motives.

To be honest why do you all care, go set up a splinter group and leave Greebo to himself if it's bothering you that much.

GreeBo

slave1 wrote: »

I'm trying to stay out of this thread but if I said Mods were acting the dick I'd probably get a warning for flaming/abuse/arguing with a mod, there's a tone issue being brought up time and time again and I feel it just falls on deaf ears...

"Dont be a dick" has been a basic rule of boards for about 15 years now...
boards.ie guidelines

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

Its even easier on here.
You have the previous in thread warnings and you get to see the fact that posts are deleted and typically a comment as to why.

But yet people still continue to ignore and breach the rules.

Also, I would point out that moderation is specific to a user. It doesnt really matter that another user may think X was harshly dealt with etc.
Typically you have no idea what may have gone on via PM for example.
The onus is on each poster to worry about their own behaviour, report anything else and not get involved.
If you have ever been part of a DRP you will see this time and time again, dont worry about what happened to another poster, the situations while possibly appearing similar on the outside, are rarely treated the same.

I think you're wrong there. The impression it gives it vital. If I see a cop beating the sh*t out of someone on the street I don't know what came before it but it doesn't look good or give a good impression of the place does it ?

If stuff went on over PM etc I don't know about it but I shouldn't see remnants of that coming through in moderator comments.

GreeBo

EvanCornwallis wrote: »

This confirms what most knew and some have been getting at.

This thread is for constructive feedback. Your post does not fit this criteria.
Please adjust your posting style or you will be removed from this thread.

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

I think you're wrong there. The impression it gives it vital. If I see a cop beating the sh*t out of someone on the street I don't know what came before it but it doesn't look good or give a good impression of the place does it ?

If stuff went on over PM etc I don't know about it but I shouldn't see remnants of that coming through in moderator comments.

The two situations are not comparable though.
One is someone paid to uphold the law the other is a volunteer.

And even more differently, I hardly think telling people to cop on is akin to beating the crap out of them?

There were/are no comments in thread that are a result of private messages. The bannings and cards however may be. That was my point. You cant judge the moderation received by anyone but yourself as you dont always know the full story. As mods however, we do.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

Because I like to give something back.
Also because I was asked to.

A charter controls the forum, a moderator enforces the charter.

For a while you were not moderating and things were fine. In fact in my opinion, it was calmer here.

I think your an excellent contributor , but cause too much hassle with your moderation.

I think we have lost some of the best contributors on here due to your moderation.

I do think you've done a great job - but you tend to use your status as a lever in certain debates. You've done this a bit less, maybe you did respond to "feedback".
The only real issue I'd have , is when you try get people you dont like to get themselves in trouble. These are sometimes the best contributors on here. This may not be intentional, but it is a consequence of your style of argument and moderation.

I think anything anybody says here makes no difference , because you never take on board any other views.

GreeBo

bustercherry wrote: »

Don't forget this part lads

One point though Greebo; none of the other mods are singled out it's always just you. If we apply Occam's Razor in this context, then we all know what/who the problem is :pac:

Also on the McIlroy thing; I'm bored with the constant sh1te over his political, romance etc.. status. I think we should be able to talk about his decision but it will end up in farce with the usual suspects derailing things. It's in the charter for a good reason.

The only thing I see a problem is the no gambling talk in certain threads; I think that is a farce and just done to satisfy a voluntary Mod's un-altruistic motives.

To be honest why do you all care, go set up a splinter group and leave Greebo to himself if it's bothering you that much.

Agreed, its that Occam fellas fault.

Take a look at the HorseRacing threads especially feedback if you want to see the churn betting threads can cause outside of the gambling forum. The ban on gambling is done for the good running of the forum, nothing more.

This is and will remain a golf focused forum, we have another dedicated forum for gambling.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

For a while you were not moderating and things were fine. In fact in my opinion, it was calmer here.

I have never stopped moderating on here.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I think your an excellent contributor , but cause too much hassle with your moderation.

I think we have lost some of the best contributors on here due to your moderation.

People chose to leave all the time, we are not going to bend over just to satisfy certain posters who cannot follow the rules.
Personally I think the forum has survived just fine without them.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I do think you've done a great job - but you tend to use your status as a lever in certain debates.

This comes up time and time again and yet no one has ever been able to point out a single example. I argue my point in threads, just like anybody else can. I have never used my position as a moderator to "win" any discussion and frankly take offence at the statement that I have.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

You've done this a bit less, maybe you did respond to "feedback".
The only real issue I'd have , is when you try get people you dont like to get themselves in trouble. These are sometimes the best contributors on here. This may not be intentional, but it is a consequence of your style of argument and moderation.

I think anything anybody says here makes no difference , because you never take on board any other views.

1) People break the rules the get in trouble, I have never tried to get someone into trouble.
2) The two bolded portions of your post are contradictory.
Which is it, am I an unrelenting ogre or just a regular Joe.

slave1

GreeBo wrote: »

"Dont be a dick" has been a basic rule of boards for about 15 years now...
boards.ie guidelines

I give up, always falling back on rules and charters, there's a spirit behind these rules, a fundamental building block of relationship building about being able to get on with people, you know ~ admitting you can be wrong the odd time?
The feedback here is on a certain tone and language used and not so much on application of rules, this is being perceived by many others. As a mod you ask others to adjust their style but I really don't think at this stage you will change your spots when that is what is being posted here time after time (not attacking, just trying for the last time to get the point across).
I think a lot of this feedback in this thread in one mod centric and in fairness in a spirit to improve the friction happening but I think it's pointless when the message is not getting through.

We're all wrong obviously. Time for a chicken sandwich and then out for a round.

FixdePitchmark

You may take offence with my posting,
But we take offence with your style of moderation,

I do agree people come across in written word very differently than the reality.

I said maybe,

Did you change as a result of feedback ?

charlieIRL

slave1 wrote: »

I give up, always falling back on rules and charters,.

The rules and charters are here for a reason though, like any rules, to maintain some sort of order. Without them the forum just wouldn't work so we have to abide by them.

charlieIRL

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

If it is such a hard life . Why do you volunteer.

I think it is more to the the point . That some volunteers like to control.

We volunteer cause, like the rest of the posters here, we all love the game of golf. We love chatting about the game of golf, some more than others but with this you are always going to get posters that try bend the rules for the sake of it. I don't want to see unrelated rubbish posted here - hence me volunteering to prevent this.

FixdePitchmark

charlieIRL wrote: »

We volunteer cause, like the rest of the posters here, we all love the game of golf. We love chatting about the game of golf, some more than others but with this you are always going to get posters that try bend the rules for the sake of it. I don't want to see unrelated rubbish posted here - hence me volunteering to prevent this.

I do admire that and have no issue with your style of moderation.

When GreeBo wasn't moderating (was mod but not as active) . I totally understand it is not a place anybody wants to be watching 24 / 7. And can't if not paid. Also shouldn't need to.

But I think it was calmer.

That is my view. People have strong views on stuff. That is mine.

I strongly object to posters who have left as a result of targeted moderation.

GreeBo

slave1 wrote: »

I give up, always falling back on rules and charters, there's a spirit behind these rules, a fundamental building block of relationship building about being able to get on with people, you know ~ admitting you can be wrong the odd time?
The feedback here is on a certain tone and language used and not so much on application of rules, this is being perceived by many others. As a mod you ask others to adjust their style but I really don't think at this stage you will change your spots when that is what is being posted here time after time (not attacking, just trying for the last time to get the point across).
I think a lot of this feedback in this thread in one mod centric and in fairness in a spirit to improve the friction happening but I think it's pointless when the message is not getting through.

We're all wrong obviously. Time for a chicken sandwich and then out for a round.

Don't be a dick is used because it's impossible to enumerate all
the things that are unwanted, there is no offence implied.

Other than people having a problem with my hard of hearing remark, are there other examples that you have where my tone, add a mod, is causing issue in your eyes?
As a regular poster I'm free to use as much tone a anyone else btw.

When I'm wrong I admit it, I don't see a) where I've done anything in this instance or b) anything wrong.

Enjoy the game, heading out myself

FixdePitchmark

Yes lads - think is time to head out for a game.

Thanks for chance for feedback.

See all on a course.

ForeRight

I'm in meloneras on holiday. Heading out tomorrow for a game where Cabrera Bello plays.....

Feedback from herself akin to greebos in here

I know that's slightly off topic but there was a hint of feedback in there

GetInTheHole!

A few pages back in this thread - I received a red card for providing what I thought was genuine feedback on how I thought the forum was managed.

The reason for my enforced holiday was allegedly down to "personal abuse".

I still stand by the fact that at no point did I call anybody anything bad - instead I simply advised somebody to stop behaving in particular manner which I believed was detrimental to the forum.

It was clear that there was only going to be one winner in the argument and that was not going to me.

As frustrating as it is for many - unfortunately this is just how things are round here.

It deters me from trying to have any meaningful contribution and I generally just casually browse here now (and follow the Harrington thread).

(***In case clarification is required - the above is meant as more genuine feedback in the "feedback thread").

GreeBo

GetInTheHole! wrote: »

A few pages back in this thread - I received a red card for providing what I thought was genuine feedback on how I thought the forum was managed.

The reason for my enforced holiday was allegedly down to "personal abuse".

I still stand by the fact that at no point did I call anybody anything bad - instead I simply advised somebody to stop behaving in particular manner which I believed was detrimental to the forum.

It was clear that there was only going to be one winner in the argument and that was not going to me.

As frustrating as it is for many - unfortunately this is just how things are round here.

It deters me from trying to have any meaningful contribution and I generally just casually browse here now (and follow the Harrington thread).

(***In case clarification is required - the above is meant as more genuine feedback in the "feedback thread").

Ok, so here is a great example for you all.
1) you are all told time and time again and twice in the last few days not to discuss moderation actions within any thread.
Yet you go right ahead and start discussing an old red card you received. How exactly are we supposed to get this across to you that it is strictly not allowed. Rather than give yet another warning to be ignored, I'm going to go ahead and give you a red card.
Hopefully you learn something from this card.
2) you didn't get an enforced holiday you got a red card
3) the card was for repeatedly calling me "geebo" and directly calling me a "co*kmonkey". If you cannot see what is wrong with that with that then perhaps this is not the forum for you.

Why not being asked to abuse someone would stop you from posting is beyond me. If you want to be able to abuse people then press don't post here anyway.

m r c

GreeBo wrote: »

Ok, so here is a great example for you all.
1) you are all told time and time again and twice in the last few days not to discuss moderation actions within any thread.
Yet you go right ahead and start discussing a old red card you received. How exactly are we supposed to get this across to you that it is strictly not allowed. Rather than give yet another warning to be ignored, I'm going to go ahead and give you a red card.
Hopefully you learn something from this card.
2) you didn't get an enforced holiday you got a red card
3) the card was for repeatedly calling me "geebo" and directly calling me a "co*kmonkey". If you cannot see what is wrong with that with that then perhaps this is not the forum for you.

Why not being asked to abuse someone would do you from posting is beyond me. If you want to be able to abuse people then press don't post here anyway.

I absolutely Lol'd at this post Greebo I don't know if you meant to be funny(sorry if not) but the "geebo" is pmsl stuff. I hadn't seen him call you that.

In many ways I totally agree with what you said though, you would get way less guff on here if you quietly deleted the comments and banned people as you read them offending against the charter but when you call people out instead and don't give red cards or holidays it makes you look argumentative when you are actually bending the rules to suit people who don't appreciate it.

Goldenjohn

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

You may take offence with my posting,
But we take offence with your style of moderation,

I do agree people come across in written word very differently than the reality.

I said maybe,

Did you change as a result of feedback ?

Not sure who you are speaking on behalf of but personally I don't have an issue with the moderation of the forum. The "we" makes it sound like you are speaking for all of the users and that's not the case.

Maybe I'm reading that wrong but its just my observation

dinnyman

GreeBo wrote: »

Ok, so here is a great example for you all.
1) you are all told time and time again and twice in the last few days not to discuss moderation actions within any thread.
Yet you go right ahead and start discussing an old red card you received. How exactly are we supposed to get this across to you that it is strictly not allowed. Rather than give yet another warning to be ignored, I'm going to go ahead and give you a red card.
Hopefully you learn something from this card.
2) you didn't get an enforced holiday you got a red card
3) the card was for repeatedly calling me "geebo" and directly calling me a "co*kmonkey". If you cannot see what is wrong with that with that then perhaps this is not the forum for you.

Why not being asked to abuse someone would stop you from posting is beyond me. If you want to be able to abuse people then press don't post here anyway.

Laughed at this post (in a good way).

And not trying to get pedantic on you;
But if he just asked you to stop acting like something; that isn't really calling you something directly is it?

GreeBo

I'm going to go ahead and close this thread in ~24hours if there are no other inputs?
PM any mod if you want it re-opened.

GreeBo

FYI, I have created a sub-forum request here if you think its a good idea, please reply on that thread with a +1.

slave1

Guys, the 2013/14 PGA season is over, can we lock the thread and start it anew when it kicks off the 2014/15 season in a few weeks, my logic being the season is over and now historical...if not, no worries, just a suggestion