Pacman Marquez 4

gene_tunney

Robert Hawkis KO'd by a Virchis jab

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTI4Nzg4NTY=.html

David Tua couldn't stop the same guy

gene_tunney

Pacquiao knocked down by a jab but gets up. Interestingly if you look at the clock he was down for more than 10 seconds.

40 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPVr3qvvsAg

gene_tunney

Watson KO's Benn with a jab. I'd hardly question Benn's chin considering how he fared against Gerald McClellan. Knew there was a famous one I was thinking of.

9.15

I'll stop now:D

gene_tunney

Pulev KO'ing the previously unstopped Dimitrenko with a jab.

37.40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcbNrODw9kA

I'm off to bed

Henno30

MD1990 wrote: »

it was mentioned to Marquez new Strength coach about drugs in 24/7
he says he now helps officials catch ppl taking & supplying drugs
so i do find it hard to believe he would be giving Marquez drugs

Heredia/Hernandez whatever he calls himself was co-operating with the US government to avoid doing time. He works in Mexico, where his activities are legal. In that 2009 documentary, he walks into a store, buys EPO, and injects it into his stomach on camera. The guy is talking about how he developed 20 undetectable steroids, and how if superstar athletes come to him he can make them designer steroids for the money they're willing to pay. I'll eat my hat if that cunt is clean.

The conditioning coach for the guy who's being fed to Khan next was on a radio show the other day, and he was talking about the word out of the Marquez camp having been that he showed up to begin training camp with explosiveness that people who'd been with him his whole career had never seen. At 39.

geurrp the yard

Can anyone explain how steroids increase punching power?

ooPabsoo

geurrp the yard wrote: »

Can anyone explain how steroids increase punching power?

A steroid such as EPO increases red blood cell production. Red blood cells deliver oxegen around the body.

If a fighter was using EPO, they'd be able to perform at high level - for a longer period of time as more oxegen is being pumped around the body fueling the muscles.

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

Watson KO's Benn with a jab. I'd hardly question Benn's chin considering how he fared against Gerald McClellan. Knew there was a famous one I was thinking of.

9.15

I'll stop now:D

That example is a wee bit deceiving. Benn was exhausted and ready to go after taking a clean pasting for several rds.

el flaco

Maybe years of drinking his own slash finally paid off for Marquez?

gene_tunney

geurrp the yard wrote: »

Can anyone explain how steroids increase punching power?

I'll explain this later when I have time but it's simple really.

ooPabsoo wrote: »

A steroid such as EPO increases red blood cell production. Red blood cells deliver oxegen around the body.

If a fighter was using EPO, they'd be able to perform at high level - for a longer period of time as more oxegen is being pumped around the body fueling the muscles.

EPO is an endurance agent. So it would prevent boxers from tiring as much and prevent power waning over the course of the fight, but wouldn't increase power as such.

witty username

EPO is a hormone. And don't forget its not just the in-the-ring benefits of increased endurance, you take EPO and testosterone during training so you can train harder day in, day out, with better recovery between sessions and developing more power as a result. Remember that Victor Conte was giving his 100m sprinters EPO for their training blocks and they're 100% power...

pitythefool

gene_tunney wrote: »

I'll explain this later when I have time but it's simple really.



EPO is an endurance agent. So it would prevent boxers from tiring as much and prevent power waning over the course of the fight, but wouldn't increase power as such.

would it not just be easier to say that steroids help to increase muscle mass and strenght

gene_tunney

pitythefool wrote: »

would it not just be easier to say that steroids help to increase muscle mass and strenght

Yup they do that. I was going to post about how they do that

gene_tunney

witty username wrote: »

EPO is a hormone. And don't forget its not just the in-the-ring benefits of increased endurance, you take EPO and testosterone during training so you can train harder day in, day out, with better recovery between sessions and developing more power as a result. Remember that Victor Conte was giving his 100m sprinters EPO for their training blocks and they're 100% power...

True but that's an indirect effect. PEDs are classified according towards their direct effects. EPO is not anabolic.

Henno30

geurrp the yard wrote: »

Can anyone explain how steroids increase punching power?

They increase protein synthesis meaning they help muscles to recover and grow quicker. They wouldn't make you or me a much better puncher, but to an individual who is already technically excellent at the completion of a particular motion, they can make that individual more powerful in a relatively short space of time, through the growth of muscle mass.

Muscle on its own isn't much use in that respect though. Heavy weights training doesn't promote fast twitch fibre growth, which is where plyometrics come into play. Plyometrics is about developing that explosiveness in the completion of the aforementioned movement, which is what makes muscle dangerous.

The older an athlete get, the more difficult it becomes to add that muscle, and develop the necessary explosiveness along with it. Beyond a certain point it tends to be regarded as near impossible to do so to a level that would significantly improve an athlete's performance at the highest level.

That's why the sudden improvement in strength, size, and performance in a guy like Barry Bonds who was in his late 30s raised eyebrows, for example. And sure enough, when the BALCO scandal broke it emerged that he had been taking undetectable forms of tetrahydrogestrinone (the clear) and testosterone (the cream).

Funnily enough, one of BALCO's top chemists was Angel Heredia, who as we know just happens to be Juan Manuel Marquez' strength and conditioning coach.

geurrp the yard

Henno30 wrote: »

They increase protein synthesis meaning they help muscles to recover and grow quicker. They wouldn't make you or me a much better puncher, but to an individual who is already technically excellent at the completion of a particular motion, they can make that individual more powerful in a relatively short space of time, through the growth of muscle mass.

Muscle on its own isn't much use in that respect though. Heavy weights training doesn't promote fast twitch fibre growth, which is where plyometrics come into play. Plyometrics is about developing that explosiveness in the completion of the aforementioned movement, which is what makes muscle dangerous.

The older an athlete get, the more difficult it becomes to add that muscle, and develop the necessary explosiveness along with it. Beyond a certain point it tends to be regarded as near impossible to do so to a level that would significantly improve an athlete's performance at the highest level.

That's why the sudden improvement in strength, size, and performance in a guy like Barry Bonds who was in his late 30s raised eyebrows, for example. And sure enough, when the BALCO scandal broke it emerged that he had been taking undetectable forms of tetrahydrogestrinone (the clear) and testosterone (the cream).

Funnily enough, one of BALCO's top chemists was Angel Heredia, who as we know just happens to be Juan Manuel Marquez' strength and conditioning coach.

That seems the most logical to me. So basically it helps perform harder sessions in terms of Plyometrics. And its the plyometrics is where the power comes from. Muscle mass I thought would be a hindrance to punching power in that it makes fighters slower(newtons law, force=mass*acceleration). I'm aware that steroids help with a fighters aerobic capacity and harnessing higher levels of testosterone .

Anyway, I though Marquez was just as bulky in the third fight as this one.

Henno30

Great article in Grantland on the fight - http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8732142/an-account-two-ringside-writers-night-juan-manuel-marquez-knocked-manny-pacquiao

The following passage sums up my feelings almost too well:

For years, Juan Manuel Marquez has been the embodiment of a familiar, inspiring story line — an undersized, scarred-up Mexican genius who, through ring savvy and heart, achieved greatness. Nobody gave Juan Manuel Marquez a fair shake throughout his career because there is nothing sexy about him. He was never as good-looking or as lionized as Erik Morales, he never fought with the explosiveness of Marco Antonio Barrera, he couldn't smile and give thanks to God and play the role of Manny Pacquiao, lovable prodigy. Despite all that, Juan Manuel Marquez will end his career as one of the greatest fighters of all time, a title he earned with dignity and courage. Full disclosure, if it's still even necessary: Marquez is my favorite fighter.

On Saturday night, I don't know if it was Marquez's unreal physique and the PED rumors or if it was the contrarian in me that instinctively goes against the crowd or if Manny's brilliance in the fifth demanded a switch in allegiance, but I, who send off bitter e-mails to my friend in Mexico City every time something reminds me of the injustice of Pacquiao-Marquez III, stood up and cheered lustily for El Filipino. In retrospect, the sight of Marquez at the weigh-in, flexing, almost jeering at the crowd as he showed off his new shoulders and core, had a more profound effect on me than I would like to admit. By beefing up, by fighting power with power, Marquez abandoned his post as the intellectual's fighter. Selfishly, I still wish the judges hadn't robbed Marquez this past November, when he used intelligence and timing to frustrate and stymie Pacquiao's attacks. I recognized and cheered for that Juan Manuel Marquez. I am completely unfamiliar with the new Marquez, this yoked kid with one-punch knockout power. If he's the real Juan Manuel Marquez, where has he been for the past 15 years?

I worshiped the old Marquez. And it looks to me like that guy is dead. We're left with this crude caricature instead.

gene_tunney

Henno30 wrote: »

Heavy weights training doesn't promote fast twitch fibre growth

lolwut

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3057312

"Heavy resistance training is associated with increased body weight, lean body mass, and muscle cross-sectional area. The increased muscle cross-sectional area is mainly brought about by hypertrophy of individual muscle fibers. There is a greater increase in the area of fast twitch fibers compared to slow twitch fibers."

Tombo2001

If its true that Marquez doped......is he not then the product of a corrupt system.

If he had been given the result he deserved last year......

Frank Bullitt

Is there any evidence at all to the doping claim? Mass amounts of speculation but thats all that it is.

walshb

Gintonious wrote: »

Is there any evidence at all to the doping claim? Mass amounts of speculation but thats all that it is.

The only evidence would be a positive test. Most of these drugs allegations are always speculation. Until he tests positive I will put it down to a perfectly timed shot. That's all we have to go on. It's not like he was faster in there. He didn't exibit any unnatural kind of strength either. Pre KO shot I thought Juan looked less great than previously.

Frank Bullitt

walshb wrote: »

The only evidence would be a positive test. Most of these drugs allegations are always speculation. Until he tests positive I will out it down to a perfectly times shot. That's all we have to go on. It's not like he was faster in there. He didn't exibit any unnatural kind of strength either.

Exactly, he shot at the right time, and got him perfect. It was a sloppy mistake from Manny, very sloppy considering he has fought him 3 times before!

walshb

Gintonious wrote: »

Exactly, he shot at the right time, and got him perfect. It was a sloppy mistake from Manny, very sloppy considering he has fought him 3 times before!

I agree.

As to a sloppy mistake. Well, Manny has made them mistakes before vs. Juan. Just that this time all the stars were aligned, or the PED pushers would spout that NOW Juan's shots were juiced. I don't buy that. Manny got caught ever so clean whilst also falling into the clean punch.

Frank Bullitt

walshb wrote: »

I agree.

As to a sloppy mistake. Well, Manny has made them mistakes before vs. Juan. Just that this time all the stars were aligned, or the PED pushers would spout that NOW Juan's shots were juiced. I don't buy that. Manny got caught ever so clean whilst also falling into the clean punch.

He did make them before, so you would assume that he would make sure to not do it again.

If he kept at it he was always going to get leveled like that, it was only a matter of time. At this level he can't make continuous mistakes, not matter how small they are.

gene_tunney

There's nothing suspicious about the KO IMO. Perfectly timed, on the button. If I was arguing that Marquez was on PEDs I'd be talking about the 3rd round KD as being suspicious.

megadodge

gene_tunney wrote: »

There's nothing suspicious about the KO IMO. Perfectly timed, on the button. If I was arguing that Marquez was on PEDs I'd be talking about the 3rd round KD as being suspicious.

????
The 3rd round knockdown came when Manny was crossing his feet AND leaning backwards. He couldn't have been in a more vulnerable position. He wasn't particularly hurt either.

FWIW I have no issue with the KO itself. Beautifully timed punch, the type that seldom happens at top level as the protagonists very seldom get caught that cleanly, while walking straight into it.

Halloween Jack

Nothing suspicious about the ko, massive suspicion about why anyone would hire hereida/Hernandez, a man who's only value is in formulating and administering doping products and programs. He serves no other purpose, he is not a strength and conditioning coach, he is a dope fixer, this is openly rotten and why this scourge isn't banned for life is beyond me.

evil_seed

IF you guys want a proper explanation of PEDS (EPO, the clear and the cream) I highly recommend listening to the Joe Rogan Experience podcast with Victor Conte as the guest. It's essential listening in my opinion and the posters saying what they think each thing does will get a proper idea of how each works. here's the video http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/26222864. you can get it on itunes too

cowzerp

I'm on my phone but tomorrow I am dishing out loads of infractions, drug allegations are not allowed without evidence.

Any more after this and bans will be given.

jjm

If Marquez was going to take PEDs, do you really think he would have this guy Heredita (spelling?) so openly in his corner/camp?

Its not impossible to put on muscle even at 39. However the knockout was literally the sweetest punch he could have hoped for, if he landed that punch in fights 1,2 or 3 it would have similarly resulted in a knockout.