People who claim to be 'spiritual'

ScumLord

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

The technology in a smart phone is actually deceptively simple. It's the miniaturisation that is difficult.

It's very much possible for one person to design every single component and piece of software for a smartphone. However, it would take a really long time and you wouldn't be able to manufacture it.

Exactly, he'd need a factory, then he needs to learn how to operate all the machines, has to know how to maintain all those machines needs to know how to properly feed materials into hose machines. It's not doable, making something like a smartphones involves thousands of people from all over the world we rarely ever take into consideration that it takes maybe 20 or more other factories to keep the one factory we're looking at operating.

Odysseus

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

It means you can be spiritual through removing thought. Thought is probably the biggest barrier to being spiritual. You lose connection to the awareness behind your thoughts which is a deeply peaceful place to allow your focus to be. Your worries suddenly seem insignificant when you get to that space. "Me" doesn't exist in that space.

How can you "remove" thought? Is consciousness not defined by the presence of thought?

seamus

Exactly, he'd need a factory, then he needs to learn how to operate all the machines, has to know how to maintain all those machines needs to know how to properly feed materials into hose machines. It's not doable, making something like a smartphones involves thousands of people from all over the world we rarely ever take into consideration that it takes maybe 20 or more other factories to keep the one factory we're looking at operating.

The processor alone within the most modern smartphones contains about billion transistors. Processors have gotten to this level of complexity due to years and years of building on old knowledge and employing very smart people to design chips.

Assuming someone has the skill to design a chip and can design a processor at a rate of about one transistor per second, they would need 31 years to build just the processor.

Knowledge I don't think is an issue. It's time. If someone had infinite time, they wouldn't need the knowledge, because they could acquire the knowledge over time. Even being in possession of everything we currently know, a person on their own would at best be able to build themselves a good home kitted out with some mechanical and electrical conveniences like running water, a cooker, a kettle, etc. There simply isn't time for an individual to develop electronics on their own.

Hurricane Carter

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

What makes you believe in a higher power? I've heard lots of people believing in this higher power. What form do you think it takes? If you mean a creator, then why not say so? Is using the term 'higher power' a way to distance yourself from religion yet believe in god?

Higher power (to me) - universe is conscious of itself. We're aware, we're part of the universe (higher power) that is aware of itself. We're its creation, or reflection if it's consciousness.

We're not here and 'it' there. Who's to say who's experience anything really is?

We're all part of a higher power, like it or not.

Scanlas The 2nd

Odysseus wrote: »

How can you "remove" thought? Is consciousness not defined by the presence of thought?

Take a deep breath and pay attention to the feelings in your body. Did you think of anything in that moment?

Spirituality isn't removing thought completely. It's bringing your focus behind your thought, most of our thoughts are repetitive nonsense which damage us mentally and physically. When you change your pov of awareness these thoughts fade away like a wave disappearing into the ocean.

Odysseus

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Take a deep breath and pay attention to the feelings in your body. Did you think of anything in that moment?

Spirituality isn't removing thought completely. It's bringing your focus behind your thought, most of our thoughts are repetitive nonsense which damage us mentally and physically. When you change your pov of awareness these thoughts fade away like a wave disappearing into the ocean.

No that is fair enough, it is not removing thought though. I would be familiar enough with these techniques, it is impossible to remove thought completely, as in order to be in the present as some people state it needs to be registered somewhere which of course involves thoughts cognitive processes.

nozzferrahhtoo

^ A lot of meditation such as Vipassana is built around the idea of getting the "user" to separate themselves from the notion of being the thinker of their own thoughts but rather that that part of you that thinks it is the separate thinker is actually just another function of the thoughts. A kind of "Self as illusion" thing. So it is not really about removing thought but removing the subjective feeling that you yourself are the thinker of your thoughts... or some kind of external observer.

Maximus Alexander

seamus wrote: »

The processor alone within the most modern smartphones contains about billion transistors. Processors have gotten to this level of complexity due to years and years of building on old knowledge and employing very smart people to design chips.

Assuming someone has the skill to design a chip and can design a processor at a rate of about one transistor per second, they would need 31 years to build just the processor.

Knowledge I don't think is an issue. It's time. If someone had infinite time, they wouldn't need the knowledge, because they could acquire the knowledge over time. Even being in possession of everything we currently know, a person on their own would at best be able to build themselves a good home kitted out with some mechanical and electrical conveniences like running water, a cooker, a kettle, etc. There simply isn't time for an individual to develop electronics on their own.

Just for the sake of argument, I don't think you'd need anything approaching infinite time.

If we're allowing for "being in possession of everything we currently know", then if you devoted your entire life to designing and manufacturing a smartphone, all by yourself, I reckon it would be entirely possible within one human lifetime.

Odysseus

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

^ A lot of meditation such as Vipassana is built around the idea of getting the "user" to separate themselves from the notion of being the thinker of their own thoughts but rather that that part of you that thinks it is the separate thinker is actually just another function of the thoughts. A kind of "Self as illusion" thing. So it is not really about removing thought but removing the subjective feeling that you yourself are the thinker of your thoughts... or some kind of external observer.

Can you expand on that a little, I am somewhat familiar with various types of meditation but not that one. However, you cannot have any experience that is not subjective. At the end of the day the subject is always there.

I can spearate myself from various thoughts that filter into my conscious processes, the same with my various pre-occupations, anxieties, worries etc. However, off the top of my head I'll describe it this way, that my core register is still functioning.

The primary process of consciousness will be operating while I am awake and alive, I'm not sure if one can separate oneself from that.

flutterflye

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

^ A lot of meditation such as Vipassana is built around the idea of getting the "user" to separate themselves from the notion of being the thinker of their own thoughts but rather that that part of you that thinks it is the separate thinker is actually just another function of the thoughts. A kind of "Self as illusion" thing. So it is not really about removing thought but removing the subjective feeling that you yourself are the thinker of your thoughts... or some kind of external observer.

I'm not familiar with that type of meditation either, but any meditation I am familiar with doesn't seek to remove thought, more to notice that the thought is there, but don't pay it any attention - just let it be - don't try and get rid of it, but don't feed it either.

Lyaiera

flutterflye wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that type of meditation either, but any meditation I am familiar with doesn't seek to remove thought, more to notice that the thought is there, but don't pay it any attention - just let it be - don't try and get rid of it, but don't feed it either.

That's the type I do. Acknowledge the thought as occurring but don't dwell on it or explore it.

ScumLord

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Just for the sake of argument, I don't think you'd need anything approaching infinite time.

If we're allowing for "being in possession of everything we currently know", then if you devoted your entire life to designing and manufacturing a smartphone, all by yourself, I reckon it would be entirely possible within one human lifetime.

It's not just a case of just being able to design the hardware and software, there are so many processes involved in the manufacturing that the workload is so vast one person can't take it on. You can't learn every station in a manufacturing process so large. It takes hundreds of people years to design the thing, from coming up with the product to building a factory that can make it. These are all separate professions. It even takes teams of auditors and accountants to bring the phone from design to manufacturing, you just don't have guys that do audits, also accounting the resources of the factory then learning how operate the CNC mill and operating the fork lift.

CruelCoin

lazygal wrote: »

Are they just kidding themselves? Anyone I know who says they aren't religious 'But I'm a very spiritual person' seems to think its a kind of a get out of jail free card for rejecting religion. Like, they don't want to be associated with an organised religion, but want to feel like there's something more to life. Is it not just wishy-washy and make-up? Seems like its covering your arse just in case.

Do i need to be a catholic/protestant/presbyterian/etc to belive in god, or a god?

All those religions are, are organisations setting down rules and procedures for how they feel you should worship and believe.

its perfectly possible to hold belief outside a religion....

nozzferrahhtoo

Odysseus wrote: »

Can you expand on that a little, I am somewhat familiar with various types of meditation but not that one. However, you cannot have any experience that is not subjective. At the end of the day the subject is always there.

I think I am not the go to guy on the subject as I only have a passing familiarization with it. But I gather it is not really about removing the subjectivity but exploring ways of acknowledging it and in a way breaking free of it. I think someone called Hood wrote a book on it called "The illusion of Self" which I have been meaning to check out.

The way Sam Harris describes it, as I said before, is as a methodology for separating oneself from the illusion of being the thinker of ones thoughts. To notice thought is happening and that you are a part of it but not an observer of it. flutterflye put it well above and is similar to what I have heard it described as.

He also describes it as the practice of focusing ones attention on the moment rather than on the future where most of us tend to dwell. We are, whether we realise it or not, always "going somewhere" in our mind. The task we are trying to achieve, where our next meal is coming from, who we want to have sex with, who is thinking good or bad about us and how we can influence that in our favor. The list goes on.

Rather than being a slave to every neurotic notion that comes careening into consciousness the practice is meant to be focused on observing the current moment and noticing, observing, and letting pass by all those notions.

Anyway suffice to say my point of bring it up was to reply to the original post that I do not think any of it is meant to be about "Removing thought" in any sense. More of a way of changing how one thinks of, and responds to, that thought and how one sees oneself as the thinker of those thoughts as if we are somehow separate to them.

It is interesting stuff and as I said there are books I have on my "To Read" list which is depressingly long at this time so I have no idea when I will get to them. I did read "Wherever you go there you are" which is one of the more lay books on the subject.