Not baptising your child - what are the practical disadvantages in Ireland?

T-K-O

We'll agree to disagree. Say a prayer for me.

eyescreamcone

T-K-O wrote: »

We'll agree to disagree. Say a prayer for me.

Father Dougal: Our Father, who art in heaven...

Father Ted: (sternly) Hallowed.

Father Dougal: Hallowed be thy..

Father Ted: Name!

Father Dougal: Papa don't preach...

Father Ted: Dougal, you know you can praise God in other ways.

Father Dougal: Oh yeah, like that time you told me I could praise him just by leaving the room.

Father Ted: Yes, that was a good one all right

T-K-O

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Father Dougal: Our Father, who art in heaven...
Father Ted: (sternly) Hallowed.
Father Dougal: Hallowed be thy..
Father Ted: Name!
Father Dougal: Papa don't preach...
Father Ted: Dougal, you know you can praise God in other ways.
Father Dougal: Oh yeah, like that time you told me I could praise him just by leaving the room.
Father Ted: Yes, that was a good one all right

The debate is not going anywhere. I'm not in here defending the church nor would I. We are not debating the merits of Religion, is there a god etc and that is kinda where we are heading.

There was a specific question from the OP

ShooterSF

T-K-O wrote: »

I would imagine we would agree on most things but the Catholic church denying my child simply will not happen. I wont allow it. For this thread / question, it is as simple as that for me.

In relation to your second point, firstly I do not care if they insist on calling me a member and as for the lobbyists their influence / power just like the church is decreasing all the time

T-K-O wrote: »

Not because I dont want a fuss. I simply do not care. Right or wrong Ill be taking my kid to the school and you'll be outside making a scene.

You know the least you could do is say thank you to kylith. It's people like them who put themselves at a disadvantage so people like you can be treated equally by just paying lip service to the church. People who are the cause of the church's power decreasing.

T-K-O

ShooterSF wrote: »

You know the least you could do is say thank you to kylith. It's people like them who put themselves at a disadvantage so people like you can be treated equally by just paying lip service to the church. People who are the cause of the church's power decreasing.

For me? Kylith is doing absolutely nothing.

joydivision

If everyone stopped giving them money theyd feck off . Not baptising your kid doesnt cost them anything .

skyfall2012

The bottom line is this is an organisation that tells us they will be our moral compass. They have abused their position in the most evil way and when that was uncovered they made it extremely difficult for the investigators to access the information. Why would anybody baptise their child into an organisation that has sexually abused children, sold them and used them as slaves. They have a grip on this country and baptising your children into this group will not help loosen this grip.

skyfall2012

I think God is speaking through me.

lazygal

skyfall2012 wrote: »

I think God is speaking through me.

That's just gas. It'll pass.

ShooterSF

T-K-O wrote: »

For me? Kylith is doing absolutely nothing.

There are two types of people who dislike the status quo: People who actively fight it and people who passively play along as to not rock the boat. Fair enough if you're the latter but keep in mind that it's the ones doing the shouting that have improved things so far, they're the reason the church doesn't have it's power any more. They are the ones that stood up and said, "No more!" and yes they are the one's that are inconvenienced by it and I find it distasteful that someone that won't rock the boat, while enjoying the steady and constant improvements brought on by rocking it, would rub in the fact that they have the easier life.

skyfall2012

lazygal wrote: »

That's just gas. It'll pass.

Tell that to the Church. Because how can anybody believe that he speaks through them. Don't worry people I'm not crazy, just making a point.

T-K-O

ShooterSF wrote: »

There are two types of people who dislike the status quo: People who actively fight it and people who passively play along as to not rock the boat. Fair enough if you're the latter but keep in mind that it's the ones doing the shouting that have improved things so far, they're the reason the church doesn't have it's power any more. They are the ones that stood up and said, "No more!" and yes they are the one's that are inconvenienced by it and I find it distasteful that someone that won't rock the boat, while enjoying the steady and constant improvements brought on by rocking it, would rub in the fact that they have the easier life.

And that's the problem. Some people assume they are doing me a favor, let me
Assure you they are not.

They are not the reason the church is fading away. The gen pop do not attend church these days. Religion in slowly being removed from society. This IMO is natural progression. We are moving beyond our old ways.

Again the op asked a very specific question. If my wife wanted to do that
Or if it made sense for certain schools... Well

Firstly I would do it for my wife. I think any person who would not is just selfish. Secondly It makes practial logical sense to allow my kid Attend certain schools.

I do not need the church as a moral compass and I do not need crusaders rocking the boat on my behalf

eyescreamcone

T-K-O wrote: »

And that's the problem. Some people assume they are doing me a favor, let me
Assure you they are not.

They are not the reason the church is fading away. The gen pop do not attend church these days. Religion in slowly being removed from society. This IMO is natural progression. We are moving beyond our old ways.

Again the op asked a very specific question. If my wife wanted to do that
Or if it made sense for certain schools... Well

Firstly I would do it for my wife. I think any person who would not is just selfish. Secondly It makes practial logical sense to allow my kid Attend certain schools.

I do not need the church as a moral compass and I do not need crusaders rocking the boat on my behalf

It's a free country boyo.
Do what you like.
Other people may not agree with your decisions. All we can do is voice that on the Internet.

However, in my humble opinion, someone who does not believe - but goes along with the charade is a bit of an Uncle Tom.

T-K-O

eyescreamcone wrote: »

It's a free country boyo.
Do what you like.
Other people may not agree with your decisions. All we can do is voice that on the Internet.

However, in my humble opinion, someone who does not believe - but goes along with the charade is a bit of an Uncle Tom.

.. it is a free country and the church is not the problem that is once was. It's going, going soon to be gone

Bannasidhe

T-K-O wrote: »

.. it is a free country and the church is not the problem that is once was. It's going, going soon to be gone

If it's a free country why can't I marry my OH and avail of the same 'rights' as my brother and sister did when they married their OH's?

If it's a free country why did I not have a choice about the religious ethos of the school I sent my son too?

If it's a free country why do I not have complete control over whether or not I wish to reproduce?

If it is a free country why can I not hang a large banner outside my house declaring that a particular religious belief is nothing but a lie?

endacl

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If it is a free country why can I not hang a large banner outside my house declaring that a particular religious belief is nothing but a lie?

This one you can do. Don't have a house myself, but I'll help you hang yours.

T-K-O

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If it's a free country why can't I marry my OH and avail of the same 'rights' as my brother and sister did when they married their OH's?

If it's a free country why did I not have a choice about the religious ethos of the school I sent my son too?

If it's a free country why do I not have complete control over whether or not I wish to reproduce?

If it is a free country why can I not hang a large banner outside my house declaring that a particular religious belief is nothing but a lie?

1. is a completely different issue.

The rest you can do

Bannasidhe

endacl wrote: »

This one you can do. Don't have a house myself, but I'll help you hang yours.

Not if it causes offense to members of that particular religion - then the Blasphemy Law comes into play.

Saying a person's religion is a lie (and let's face it - they can't all be right) would certainly cause them offense...

Edit to add - although Article 40.6.1.i of the Constitution says the State guarantees the right of citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions - the Blasphemy Law says I cannot express those convictions and opinions about people's religious beliefs in such a way as to cause offense. E.G. - To hang a banner expressing my Constitutional right to express my conviction and opinion that a particular religious belief is Bull **** would leave me open to prosecution.
Funny kinda 'freedom'....

Bannasidhe

T-K-O wrote: »

1. is a completely different issue.

The rest you can do

Why exactly is #1 a completely different issue is a supposedly 'free' country?
Either all citizens have equal rights or they don't. In Ireland heterosexuals have more rights then homosexuals.


As for the other - Nope - I can't.

2. 93% of State funded schools come under the patronage of the RCC. In many rural communities this means there is no choice. How is that indicative of living in a 'free' country?

3. If I am raped and become pregnant I cannot avail of an abortion in my own country but would have to travel to another jurisdiction - where is my choice? To stay and remain pregnant against my will or leave. How is that a 'free' country?

4. See above re: Blasphemy Law.

Ellis Dee

In my case, I suspect a few of the more pious, brainwashed-Catholic members of my own family arranged for quick, secret baptisms. The kiddy-fiddler church caters for that kind of thing as part of its extensive repertoire of child abuse.:rolleyes:

Fortunately, the mumbo-jumbo had no effect, and the kids went to school in Finland, which has one of the best educational systems in the world and religion (other than a general explanation of the world's major faiths and philosophies) has no role in schools.

I realise how lucky my family was to be able to enjoy a right that we take for granted, but is still denied Irish families who wish their children to be brought up without the pernicious influence of religion.:):)

endacl

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Not if it causes offense to members of that particular religion - then the Blasphemy Law comes into play.

Saying a person's religion is a lie (and let's face it - they can't all be right) would certainly cause them offense...

That a law that needs testing.

I'm not sure that such a sign couldn't be claimed to be a sharing of the good news. A 'gospel', if you like. In the manner of a 'Jebus Saves' banner. How many if those do we see every day? Could I be prosecuted for having a darwinfish sticker on a guitar case? With every intention of causing offence?

T-K-O

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why exactly is #1 a completely different issue is a supposedly 'free' country?
Either all citizens have equal rights or they don't. In Ireland heterosexuals have more rights then homosexuals.


As for the other - Nope - I can't.

2. 93% of State funded schools come under the patronage of the RCC. In many rural communities this means there is no choice. How is that indicative of living in a 'free' country?

3. If I am raped and become pregnant I cannot avail of an abortion in my own country but would have to travel to another jurisdiction - where is my choice? To stay and remain pregnant against my will or leave. How is that a 'free' country?

4. See above re: Blasphemy Law.

Lets stay on point here. I would happily give my view on the above but it's not relevant for this thread.

Bannasidhe

T-K-O wrote: »

Lets stay on point here. I would happily give my view on the above but it's not relevant for this thread.

You said it was a 'free' country.

Now that you have been called on that you want to wriggle out of it?

Bannasidhe

endacl wrote: »

That a law that needs testing.

I'm not sure that such a sign couldn't be claimed to be a sharing of the good news. A 'gospel', if you like. In the manner of a 'Jebus Saves' banner. How many if those do we see every day? Could I be prosecuted for having a darwinfish sticker on a guitar case? With every intention of causing offence?

It does need testing - the fact remains it is on our Statute Book (and a recent addition at that) and contravenes our right to freely express our convictions and opinions when it comes to religious belief.

Not exactly an indication of a 'free' country which was my point.

T-K-O

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You said it was a 'free' country.

Now that you have been called on that you want to wriggle out of it?

Every country has it;s problems but believe me, we live in a free country. Head off to the middle east and see how you get on

endacl

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It does need testing - the fact remains it is on our Statute Book (and a recent addition at that) and contravenes our right to freely express our convictions and opinions when it comes to religious belief.

Not exactly an indication of a 'free' country which was my point.

I'm getting a bigger darwinfish sticker.

Bannasidhe

T-K-O wrote: »

Every country has it;s problems but believe me, we live in a free country. Head off to the middle east and see how you get on

Seems to be the day for whataboutery...

Why should I leave?

I have lived in a great many countries around the world - Both in the E.U. and further afield. Ironically, even as a non-national in those countries I enjoyed greater rights then I have in my own country.

I am an Irish citizen - am I not entitled to equal rights in my 'free' country?

Bannasidhe

endacl wrote: »

I'm getting a bigger darwinfish sticker.

I'm thinking of a giant Darwin Fish mosaic across the front of my house.

endacl

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm thinking of a giant Darwin Fish mosaic across the front of my house.

I'm in! When do we start?!?

:D:D

ShooterSF

T-K-O wrote: »

And that's the problem. Some people assume they are doing me a favor, let me
Assure you they are not.

They are not the reason the church is fading away. The gen pop do not attend church these days. Religion in slowly being removed from society. This IMO is natural progression. We are moving beyond our old ways.

And when everyone attended church and it held great power over people in the country how do you think that changed? People that fought it. That's the reason others have realised they can avoid mass or only pay lip service to the church because some people who don't follow the status quo rebelled. And in the future people who don't like to cause a fuss won't even have to indoctrinate their kids into a religion they don't believe in because those kicking up will eventually get our school system improved.

The idea that change can occur by people following along is illogical.