Not baptising your child - what are the practical disadvantages in Ireland?

T-K-O

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Seriously - think about what you have just said.

Clue:

Inducting a child into a religion is pushing your own beliefs onto a child

.

Fair enough. But like I said I would not do something now that would prevent my child form attending certain schools.

The system is in place and needs to be manipulated. Would I like to see change, of course. However it's a non issue for me. The church (In Ireland) is slowly dying anyway.

Bannasidhe

T-K-O wrote: »

That's a good point but we live in a catholic country. Personally I am not religious at all but if my wife wanted to baptise our child I would do it.

The church can say what they like, yes I was baptised but I choose not to be a member. You say you cant leave the Catholic church but many of use have. Who gives a dam what they say.

No we live in a country where the Catholic church is allowed to dictate what the civil rights of even non-Catholic citizens are.

This is not a Catholic country - the Constitution is quite clear on this point. It is a country where the majority claim to be Catholic- there is a world of difference.

France is also a 'Catholic' country if one is judging such things by majority percentage of the population - it has complete separation of the Church and State.

The only true Catholic country is the Vatican. I don't live there.

Bannasidhe

T-K-O wrote: »

Fair enough. But like I said I would not do something now that would prevent my child form attending certain schools.

The system is in place and needs to be manipulated. Would I like to see change, of course. However it's a non issue for me. The church (In Ireland) is slowly dying anyway.

As long as people go with the flow nothing will change.

Your children will be having the same discussion, and their children...

T-K-O

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No we live in a country where the Catholic church is allowed to dictate what the civil rights of even non-Catholic citizens are.

This is not a Catholic country - the Constitution is quite clear on this point. It is a country where the majority claim to be Catholic- there is a world of difference.

France is also a 'Catholic' country if one is judging such things by majority percentage of the population - it has complete separation of the Church and State.

The only true Catholic country is the Vatican. I don't live there.

If your parents are Irish ask them what it was like for them growing up and if they would say Ireland is a Catholic country. Think of the control and input the church once had and compare it to now.

I do not believe this will be same issue for our children. We have more Atheists and Agnostics then ever before. It will be a completely changed situation for our children.

As for the crusade, well I will leave that up to MR Dawkins

Bannasidhe

T-K-O wrote: »

If your parents are Irish ask them what it was like for them growing up and if they would say Ireland is a Catholic country. Think of the control and input the church once had and compare it to now.

I do not believe this will be same issue for our children. We have more Atheists and Agnostics then ever before. It will be a completely changed situation for our children.

As for the crusade, well I will leave that up to MR Dawkins

My parent's are divorced.
My mother is firmly pro-choice.
My grandmother was firmly pro-choice.
My great-grandfather was COI.

All of them believed in separation of church and State.

I am old enough to remember the absolute control the RCC exercised in Ireland - it is changing because people like me are refusing to accept it, not because people like you are kicking the can down the road.

T-K-O

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My parent's are divorced.
My mother is firmly pro-choice.
My grandmother was firmly pro-choice.
My great-grandfather was COI.

All of them believed in separation of church and State.

I am old enough to remember the absolute control the RCC exercised in Ireland - it is changing because people like me are refusing to accept it, not because people like you are kicking the can down the road.

As do I.

My love for the church would equal my love for the banks but I will use both to my advantage.

endacl

T-K-O wrote: »

As do I.

My love for the church would equal my love for the banks but I will use both to my advantage.

Delivered in my best 'this is why the country is in the state its in' voice: Ah sure that's OK then.

BraveInca

joydivision wrote: »

You dont seem to get it . I was baptised and ended up a non believer . The splash of water did nothing .
The chinese by got no water on the head . Had a rough few years in school and is probably some odd ball now because of it.

In your opinion the actions of the school, and the children in it, caused actual harm to that poor child - yet you are cheerfully defending (and perpetuating) the status quo that allowed that to happen?

joydivision

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My parent's are divorced.
My mother is firmly pro-choice.
My grandmother was firmly pro-choice.
My great-grandfather was COI.

All of them believed in separation of church and State.

I am old enough to remember the absolute control the RCC exercised in Ireland - it is changing because people like me are refusing to accept it, not because people like you are kicking the can down the road.

Nope its changing because nobodies afraid of the priests anymore . Nobody cares for the church . Nobody goes . Not because you didnt baptise your kids .

T-K-O

endacl wrote: »

Delivered in my best 'this is why the country is in the state its in' voice: Ah sure that's OK then.

Who said its OK. :rolleyes:

I will not loose sleep over the church, wondering if they will allow me to leave.

The OP asked a practical question and I believe I have answered with a practical thought process

robindch

joydivision wrote: »

I dont care if the church agrees with me or not

"I know my wife says I'm married to her, but really, I'm not married to her" -- good attitude

Dades

T-K-O wrote: »

Stop being an idiot. Why deprive your child of going to certain schools and taking part in certain days growing up.

A comment like this will earn you a card the next time.

T-K-O

Dades wrote: »

A comment like this will earn you a card the next time.

Is it ok to call someone a sheep but not an idiot? I'm here to give my view, not to insult or be insulted.

joydivision

robindch wrote: »

"I know my wife says I'm married to her, but really, I'm not married to her" -- good attitude

Hmm yeah dude . Exactly the same thing . I sang we ll be forever loving jah whilst listening to a bob marley song with said lyrics before . Guess im forever a rasta too .

Dades

T-K-O wrote: »

Is it ok to call someone a sheep but not an idiot?

Given that Shankly88 first mentioned the term "sheep" himself, before throwing out a general insult - "hypocrites" - yes.

T-K-O wrote: »

I'm here to give my view, not to insult or be insulted.

Then don't suggest someone is an idiot.

This interchange is over. Bring it to PM if you have anything to add.

joydivision

Child soldiers . Im drawing comparisons .

coffee_cake

joydivision wrote: »

Child soldiers . Im drawing comparisons .

Quite disturbing, I agree.
http://tomahbaptistchurch.com/soldierskids.html

kylith

T-K-O wrote: »

Stop being an idiot. Why deprive your child of going to certain schools and taking part in certain days growing up.

My child will make up its own mind - Just like I did. So you being brave is pushing your own beliefs onto a child. That's brilliant , well done

I'm not depriving my (future) children of anything. It is the Catholic Church which wishes to deprive them of an education unless I kowtow to their wishes.

T-K-O wrote: »

That's a good point but we live in a catholic country. Personally I am not religious at all but if my wife wanted to baptise our child I would do it.

The church can say what they like, yes I was baptised but I choose not to be a member. You say you cant leave the Catholic church but many of use have. Who gives a dam what they say.

You can say that you consider yourself as having left the church, but they still count you as a member, and they use those statistics when they're lobbying, claiming that they represent 4 million Catholics, or whatever the number is. Every child that gets baptised because 'ah, why not', or 'what'll we tell him when his friends are making their communion' or 'she'll feel left out' or 'granny wants a day out' is handing the RCC another person they can claim to represent when they lobby against abortion, or gay rights.

joydivision

bluewolf wrote: »

Quite disturbing, I agree.
http://tomahbaptistchurch.com/soldierskids.html

1if they do it does it make it right ?

2 this ad is for a bible camp no fighting involved . Maybe molesting but no fighting .

3 giving your child a big red flag on his head for other kids to pick on and telling him to fight his bullies is pretty much neglect .

To each their own .

robindch

joydivision wrote: »

3 giving your child a big red flag on his head for other kids to pick on and telling him to fight his bullies is pretty much neglect

What you're really saying is just make sure your kid's doing the bullying -- tasteful

Dades

The role of the parent is not ensure your child blends in with all the other children, but to equip them with the social tools to deal with situations such as you suggest.

It shouldn't be overly difficult to provide a response to address bullies who insist on believing in fairy tales. :pac:

BraveInca

joydivision wrote: »

giving your child a big red flag on his head for other kids to pick on and telling him to fight his bullies is pretty much neglect .

To each their own .

And what about the other kids, like that Chinese kid in your earlier example, who have no earthly reason to be baptised? Just **** 'em, right?

T-K-O

kylith wrote: »

I'm not depriving my (future) children of anything. It is the Catholic Church which wishes to deprive them of an education unless I kowtow to their wishes.


You can say that you consider yourself as having left the church, but they still count you as a member, and they use those statistics when they're lobbying, claiming that they represent 4 million Catholics, or whatever the number is. Every child that gets baptised because 'ah, why not', or 'what'll we tell him when his friends are making their communion' or 'she'll feel left out' or 'granny wants a day out' is handing the RCC another person they can claim to represent when they lobby against abortion, or gay rights.

I would imagine we would agree on most things but the Catholic church denying my child simply will not happen. I wont allow it. For this thread / question, it is as simple as that for me.

In relation to your second point, firstly I do not care if they insist on calling me a member and as for the lobbyists their influence / power just like the church is decreasing all the time

T-K-O

Dades wrote: »

The role of the parent is not ensure your child blends in with all the other children, but to equip them with the social tools to deal with situations such as you suggest.

It shouldn't be overly difficult to provide a response to address bullies who insist on believing in fairy tales. :pac:

That clears that up..

kylith

T-K-O wrote: »

I would imagine we would agree on most things but the Catholic church denying my child simply will not happen. I wont allow it. For this thread / question, it is as simple as that for me.

I won't allow it either. I suspect, though, that while I won't allow it by making the biggest, loudest scene possible to demand that my child be allowed to access the school system regardless of religious belief or lack thereof, you 'won't allow' it by rolling over, baptising the child, and letting the church have its way so as not to cause a fuss.

This is why we are now having this issue with non-religious children in schools, too many people have said 'sure I don't believe in it, but I'll have it done because I don't want to cause any fuss'.

joydivision

Dades wrote: »

The role of the parent is not ensure your child blends in with all the other children, but to equip them with the social tools to deal with situations such as you suggest.

It shouldn't be overly difficult to provide a response to address bullies who insist on believing in fairy tales. :pac:

Ah yes give them a reason to fight to teach them to fight . Genius .
Child soldiers .
Johnny Cash boy named sue .

T-K-O

kylith wrote: »

I won't allow it either. I suspect, though, that while I won't allow it by making the biggest, loudest scene possible to demand that my child be allowed to access the school system regardless of religious belief or lack thereof, you 'won't allow' it by rolling over, baptising the child, and letting the church have its way so as not to cause a fuss.

This is why we are now having this issue with non-religious children in schools, too many people have said 'sure I don't believe in it, but I'll have it done because I don't want to cause any fuss'.

Not because I dont want a fuss. I simply do not care. Right or wrong Ill be taking my kid to the school and you'll be outside making a scene.

endacl

T-K-O wrote: »

In relation to your second point, firstly I do not care if they insist on calling me a member and as for the lobbyists their influence / power just like the church is decreasing all the time

The sad fact is that if everybody was honest about the importance of the church it is likely that the it's influence would not be decreasing. It would be a matter only for historians and those few who were genuine committed members.

Everybody could then get on with their lives. Women wouldn't die in the futile attempt of medical staff to protect a non-viable foetus. If people were more honest and courageous the story we wouldn't have been reading about this week would be of a sad Indian couple who were grieving after a miscarraige.

kylith

T-K-O wrote: »

Not because I dont want a fuss. I simply do not care. Right or wrong Ill be taking my kid to the school and you'll be outside making a scene.

Yeah, you just don't care enough to try make the world better. I'll be outside, fighting for the future.

I don't care about racial equality, I'll sit down the back of the bus with the other blacks.
I don't care about women's rights, I'll give up work when I get married even though I've worked hard on my career.
I don't care about religious discrimination, I'll get my child baptised even though I don't believe in it.

You don't care and I do. That's the difference.

Dades

joydivision wrote: »

Ah yes give them a reason to fight to teach them to fight . Genius .

That's a wicked soundbyte. Would you advocate have your child walking hunched over if they were too tall? Or dye their hair if it was red? Perhaps wearing a bit of white makeup if they were a bit browner than the other kids?

Leaving aside our snarky jibes, I think you are overestimating the effect that not sitting in RE class will have on a particular child. In 5-10 years time I suspect the main reaction will be jealousy, and the numbers won't be so one-sided. What it won't be is some stupid sectarian battle - that nonsense is strictly for adults.

And for the record, both my kids are baptised. Whether or not they'll do any sacraments will be another *discussion* with my catholic wife, hopefully at that point with input from the younglings in question. I admire considerably those that don't baptise their kids into a religion they are not part of, while sympathising with those who do for reasons other than apathy.