Not baptising your child - what are the practical disadvantages in Ireland?

D Hayes

Apologies if this is the wrong forum, but not sure where to post this.

My wife and I are expecting our first child in January. We are both Catholics. I'm non-practicing and my wife is practicing - mass weekly.

In light of recent matters related to the Catholic Church in Ireland, I've become more and more disillusioned with the Catholic religion. I think this latest case of the poor woman in University Hospital Galway is the straw that broke the camel's back.

I'm considering not baptising my child and letting them make up their own mind when they are old enough to make an informed decision.

Onto my question - what are the practical disadvantages of not christening/baptising our child? Would the child be excluded from attending certain schools? Are there any other major disadvantages?

I would just like as much information on the topic as I can find before we make the decision. I've Googled it, and not much about it specific to Ireland.

Zillah

Catholic schools can discriminate against your unbaptised child by allowing baptised children ahead of them in the waiting lists. Because education in this country is a sham.

I don't think there are any other practical issues. Personally I would just photoshop a baptism cert and lie lie lie. There's no shame in scamming a corrupt system

CarMe

We didn't have our daughter baptised but will be sending her to an educate together school as we just prefer the whole ethos and I wouldn't like my daughter partaking in the religious studies that are mandatory in the other schools around, at least until she's old enough to decide for herself.

Dades

Other than potential school problems and marital/familial discord, I can't think of any non-supernatural negatives.

If you do go ahead, try and at least ensure a "No Religion" tick on the next census.

krudler

No reflection, dogs wont like them, automatic doors will remain closed, holy water may sting a bit, old people will sense something iffy and treat them with distrust, priest's powers will become weakened in their presence.

Zillah

Also, someone send that man a copy of The God Delusion, stat.

D Hayes

Thanks for all the answers, much appreciated.

CarMe wrote: »

We didn't have our daughter baptised but will be sending her to an educate together school as we just prefer the whole ethos and I wouldn't like my daughter partaking in the religious studies that are mandatory in the other schools around, at least until she's old enough to decide for herself.

That's interesting. Never heard of Educate Together before, and there's one opening in my locality next year. Thanks for the heads up.

krudler wrote: »

No reflection, dogs wont like them, automatic doors will remain closed, holy water may sting a bit, old people will sense something iffy and treat them with distrust, priest's powers will become weakened in their presence.

Hmmm, indeed. These were the kinds of disadvantages I was thinking about myself! To the church!

Zillah

buysellswap wrote: »

That's interesting. Never heard of Educate Together before, and there's one opening in my locality next year. Thanks for the heads up.

Oh wow, yes! I assumed everyone knew about those. Educate Together are awesome and you should get your name on the list asap.

eviltwin

Hi OP, I have a unbapthised child. Honestly besides the schools thing it makes no difference and even at that it might be irrelevant.

Our local Catholic boys school was putting flyers for an open day through the door about six months ago. I explained to them my son is not Catholic therefore unlikely to be offered a place, the lady said they have so few people applying that more than likely they would accept him with open arms no cert needed.

He's down for the local ET but if that doesn't work out its nice to know there is an option so check out your own area, you might find its not as essential as you think.

CruelCoin

Dades wrote: »

Other than potential school problems and marital/familial discord, I can't think of any non-supernatural negatives.

If you do go ahead, try and at least ensure a "No Religion" tick on the next census.

Screw that. Join me brothers! The Flying Spaghetti Monster accepts all.

All praise be to his noodly goodness. Ramen.

Dades

buysellswap wrote: »

Never heard of Educate Together before, and there's one opening in my locality next year.

Dude, you really need to read more about schools. They will become a large part of your life.

Also, ET schools take kids (generally) on a first-come-first-served application basis, so be prepared to put your kids name down from birth.

Also, congrats!

EDIT: Also read this thread!

Thujrog

We didn't baptise our daughter. Although almost every national school in the area is Catholic (we live in the countryside) we had no difficulties finding her a place in a school. She attends the closest NS and I think she would have had no problems getting a place in any of the other schools in the area.

It may be different in the city where the "good schools" may be oversubscribed. In these cases I think the school need to have a clear policy on how they prioritise applications. If you want to find our for sure you should check with the schools in your area.

As for other disadvantages there aren't really any. Other than the inconvenience of doing things a bit differently to other families. Where we live there is an assumption that all the kids are Catholic, in particular the kids of locals. TBH it would be a bit easier to just play along and do the part time Catholic thing (big occasions only, no mass on Sunday, no discussion of religion or prayer in the home) that it seems most people my age do. But it is a fairly mild inconvenience.

I'm glad we didn't get our daughter baptised. Looking back I remember some very half hearted answers from my mother when I asked her about god or something else that we learned in religion. She obviously thought it was a crock but didn't want to contradict. It's nice to be straight up and honest with my daughter. She's only 5 but already has a great nose for BS or inconsistencies in answers to her questions. To my mind the only way to bring her up Catholic would be to create an environment where you don't get to apply curiosity and critical thinking to religion.

Peregrinus

IF you want to send your child to a Catholic (or other Christian) school, and

IF that school is popular and oversubscribed,

THEN your child’s chances of not getting a place are increased if they’re not baptised.

IF your child does attend a Catholic school, they won’t be able to participate in First Communion/Confirmation along with their classmates if they’re not baptised. (This may not bother you but it could bother your child.)

I honestly can’t think of any other practical disadvantages. The disadvantages could be greater (or lesser) if you migrate to another country.

None of this is a problem if you want your child to attend an ET school and there is a suitable one nearby and they get a place there but, as the thread Dades linked to points out, this can’t be guaranteed.

There’s the issue of whether you and your wife agree about baptism, of course, but if there are problems in that department they won’t be resolved here.

Morag

It's not as uncommon as it used to be, back when I didn't get my two done there was a fuss and to this day they are the only kids in their years in secondary school who officially have no religion.

Yes you will have to answer their questions as to why they are not catholics and give them the confidence to speak up for themselves and answer the questions others will have, esp their peers and depending on what school they are in talk with the teachers more. But it's all things you can handle.

lazygal

Just starting out with our little lass. Haven't and won't be baptising, myself and himself were in firm agreement from the start. There's been a few rumblings from family and some eyerolling comments about 'giving her the choice by having her baptised'. Had to laugh when we were asked for her religion when she was in for a procedure at six weeks, when we said none we were asked to clarify what we meant: Himself "no religion", Admin person "are you sure?", Himself "I think at six weeks she's a wee bit young to know whether there's a god'. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Have enrolled in the local educate together, failing a place here we're going to have to go Catholic and ensure she's well able to defend herself against the 'god wants everyone to be friends' nicer-nicey Alive-O bull. Will deal with communion/conformation nearer the time.

Banbh

Our kids went to the local school (Catholic) and never had a problem. We let them participate in most of the goings-on at the school but not direct indoctrination, trips to the church, little talks from visiting priests etc - little darling once played Mary in the Christmas play.

Before the fifth birthday I rang the Dept of Education: "I have to send my kids to school, right? So what school do I send the to as we're not religious?" After a fit of coughing the Dept replied: "Go to the local school and if there is any problem, get back to us."

There wasn't. It is amazing how obliging people are when you assert your rights. I suspect several of the teachers were delighted.

Animord

I am an upbaptised child... albeit a 46 year old one! Non-practising protestant father and non-practising RC mother. It didn't do me any harm (that I am aware of) and I have never had discrimination that I am aware of either. I was sent to a protestant school - probably would have been ET if they had been around.

I didn't even know I hadn't been baptised until I was about fourteen - the subject just never came up.

Bannasidhe

My son wasn't baptised and he is now 28.

TBH he got more grief for having an English accent when we moved back here in '93 then he ever encountered for not being baptised.

Hotblack Desiato

I'm the godless father of two faithless children...

Daughter is 4.5 and started school last Sept in the local CoI (which is actually the nearest school to us ) although both of us were 'brought up RCC' we'd go out of our way to avoid inflicting that abusive nonsense upon our kids. No ET within range though.
The CoI school do 'service' in the chapel next to the school every Friday. I'm not remotely happy about this but my wife doesn't want to cause a fuss and no alternative is offered. Even though our child has a legal right not to be indoctrinated... We want to get a place for our younger son there (rather than the even worse RCC schools) so this is not a time to kick up, however much I find kowtowing to religion distateful.
Welcome to education in Ireland, 21st century style :mad:

T-K-O

I dont have kids but if I did I would have them baptised. Why close certain doors or risk closing them.

lazygal

There's Catholic doors I don't want to risk opening with magic water and the like.

gbee

There is no obstacle anymore, especially with the passing of the child act recently.

daheff

Just with respect to ET schools (and i mean this in no way racist)

You have a number of foreign nationals children attending these schools (as quite a few are not RCC it is seen as the best option).

Now because quite a few of these may have poor english skills, you will find that this is holding back the class for the first couple of years until the majority are better able to speak/communicate in english.


I'm non-practicsing catholic, so is the missus daheff, but we had our kids baptised because a- there was no ET school in our area, and b-because if we didnt we would have had problems getting them into the schools in our oversubscribed area.

Also remember that Ireland now has the highest birth levels in about a hundred years (70K+ births last year).

One good thing is that dept of education is doing local area surveys to see what types of schools local areas want

Sonics2k

I wasn't baptized. In terms of day to day practical difficulties, there are none. Some schools can be tricky, but frankly most of them really don't care.

Zamboni

You will be expected to provide presents for related children who are baptised, communed and confirmed despite no obvious reciprocal arrangement for your child :eek::)

joydivision

Why not just baptise them? If god doesnt exist whats wrong with splashing babies head with water ?
2 of my kids arnt baptised . No reason for it just cant be arsed dont really believe it. But if I thought itd save me hassle id baptise them. I think I will eventually I want them to be able to dress up with their friends for communion and stuff .
Whats the harm like ?

kylith

T-K-O wrote: »

I dont have kids but if I did I would have them baptised. Why close certain doors or risk closing them.

In fairness you close more doors by baptising them than by not. If they grow up to disagree with the teachings of the Catholic church that's tough luck, because they can never leave it. If you don't baptise them then they can make their own decision on which religion, or none, that they would like to join when they are old enough to make that choice for themselves. Baptism into RCC = choice of Catholicism only. No baptism = choice of any religion on the planet, or none.

Zamboni

buysellswap wrote: »

Apologies if this is the wrong forum, but not sure where to post this.

My wife and I are expecting our first child in January. We are both Catholics. I'm non-practicing and my wife is practicing - mass weekly.

In light of recent matters related to the Catholic Church in Ireland, I've become more and more disillusioned with the Catholic religion. I think this latest case of the poor woman in University Hospital Galway is the straw that broke the camel's back.

I'm considering not baptising my child and letting them make up their own mind when they are old enough to make an informed decision.

Onto my question - what are the practical disadvantages of not christening/baptising our child? Would the child be excluded from attending certain schools? Are there any other major disadvantages?

I would just like as much information on the topic as I can find before we make the decision. I've Googled it, and not much about it specific to Ireland.

Get up to speed very quickly on Educate Together.
Baby-boom + Equality Act exemptions to Religious schools = Pressure on school places for children who do not want a religious ethos education.

My child is pre-enrolled with about twenty ETs.
I will move location as necessary/possible based on which place is offered.
Ideally we will get a place in one of the three ETs in my current vicinity but better to be prepared. Also, my child was born at a time of year that will not bode well in the first come first served basis that ET uses.
Unfortunately ET have duplication on their pre-enrolments and they acknowledge this but that is the system currently on offer.

Zamboni

joydivision wrote: »

Why not just baptise them? If god doesnt exist whats wrong with splashing babies head with water ?
2 of my kids arnt baptised . No reason for it just cant be arsed dont really believe it. But if I thought itd save me hassle id baptise them. I think I will eventually I want them to be able to dress up with their friends for communion and stuff .
Whats the harm like ?

You would be perpetuating a malevolent and corrupt system which biases in favour of religious belief.

Peregrinus

kylith wrote: »

Baptism into RCC = choice of Catholicism only.

Which is why no-one baptised in to the Catholic church is now a member of any other church, and none of them have ever left the church.

Oh, wait . . . .

equivariant

As others have said school is the main issue. However this is somewhat location dependent I think. If like us, you live in the sticks, admittance to the local school will almost certainly not be a problem. The problem will be that there won't be any non religious influenced school. If you live in an urban area, you have more choice but it can be hard to get into your school of choice.

robindch

daheff wrote: »

Just with respect to ET schools (and i mean this in no way racist) You have a number of foreign nationals children attending these schools (as quite a few are not RCC it is seen as the best option).
Now because quite a few of these may have poor english skills, you will find that this is holding back the class for the first couple of years until the majority are better able to speak/communicate in english.

I'm not sure what the ET school is like in your area, but in the ET school in South Dublin which my daughter attends (Senior Infants) the class generally is somewhere between one and two years ahead of where they're supposed to be, at least according to the dreadfully backwards-facing national curriculum.

Some friends of hers who go to a local catholic-controlled school on the other hand, are (finger in the air) maybe a year behind -- hence the rather embarrassing experience for them of having their nine-year old male reading skills corrected by a girl who turned six a few weeks ago.

joydivision

Zamboni wrote: »

You would be perpetuating a malevolent and corrupt system which biases in favour of religious belief.

So I should make the kids suffer in order to fight a system I couldnt really give a toss about . Are we fighting the catholic church now? If I believe I will just turn into fertilizer after I die who cares if somebody splashes water on my head . Itd be just as relevant as wetting my hair before I put gel in it would it not ?

Zamboni

joydivision wrote: »

So I should make the kids suffer in order to fight a system I couldnt really give a toss about . Are we fighting the catholic church now? If I believe I will just turn into fertilizer after I die who cares if somebody splashes water on my head . Itd be just as relevant as wetting my hair before I put gel in it would it not ?

Suffer? Expand.

joydivision

Zamboni wrote: »

Suffer? Expand.

They wont get to dress up atleast twice and get money from all their relatives like all the other kids are for a start .

Zamboni

joydivision wrote: »

They wont get to dress up atleast twice and get money from all their relatives like all the other kids are for a start .

Oh the horror.
And on that note, I'm out.

kylith

Peregrinus wrote: »

Which is why no-one baptised in to the Catholic church is now a member of any other church, and none of them have ever left the church.

Oh, wait . . . .

You cannot leave the RCC since they removed the mechanism to do so. Maybe they'd consider you a Catholic Jew, or a Catholic Muslim. Just like they consider me a Catholic even though I've been an atheist for years. Possibly there's another way of taking your name off their books if you're joining another religion, but I've never looked into it myself. If you know of a link I'd be interested in having a read.

Banbh

If you sign them up as Jews they get a big bar mitzvah - and a freshly bulldozed farm in Israel.

Why arre you not depriving them of this?

joydivision

Zamboni wrote: »

Oh the horror.
And on that note, I'm out.

But if you thought about it from the kids angle this would make them feel isolated and left out . Surely for the sake of a bit of water on their heads . Do we now believe this baptism has special powers . You are no different with or without it . Should we not allow them to dress up for halloween because there is no such thing as ghosts .
Its not all black and white . Let the kids have a bit of fun I say .

endacl

lazygal wrote: »

There's been a few rumblings from family and some eyerolling comments about 'giving her the choice by having her baptised'.

But aren't you actually giving her the choice?

Bannasidhe

joydivision wrote: »

But if you thought about it from the kids angle this would make them feel isolated and left out . Surely for the sake of a bit of water on their heads . Do we now believe this baptism has special powers . You are no different with or without it . Should we not allow them to dress up for halloween because there is no such thing as ghosts .
Its not all black and white . Let the kids have a bit of fun I say .

We have to sign up as members of a corrupt organisation responsible for the deaths and torture of countless people across the century to engage in a spot of trick or treating?

This not getting the memo lark is beyond a joke now. :mad:

endacl

joydivision wrote: »

Should we not allow them to dress up for halloween because there is no such thing as ghosts .

Of course we should. Its entirely appropriate for kids to dress up and play make-believe. Grown men on the other hand...

carlarua

None of my children are baptized, attend a local national school and we never had problems. The only thing they don't get to do is wrangle money from their relatives when other children do their communion...I'm not a militant atheist, so I don't mind if they just sit in the classroom during religious education, since the school is only small and there are no facilities for non-religious children to go to during R.E.

The only time we got confronted with the children not being baptized was when one of our kids was seriously ill in hospital ; a nurse who admitted us could not get over the fact that we were not religious, kids weren't baptized, we didn't want a priest, and how could we live with ourselves, denying our child heaven if she should die...the other half and I were just too upset about our daughter's condition to make any comment or take any action.

Bannasidhe

endacl wrote: »

Of course we should. Its entirely appropriate for kids to dress up and play make-believe. Grown men on the other hand...

My grandson dresses up as Buzz Lightyear.


We did not have to sprinkle him with Disney dust or promise to obey Disney and shun all other animated film producers.

joydivision

Think im just gonna explain to them when they hit about 13 or 14 to forget all that holy joe stuff its just for kids .
Is this a terrible thing ?

eyescreamcone

T-K-O wrote: »

I dont have kids but if I did I would have them baptised. Why close certain doors or risk closing them.

You and your sheeplike attitude is why it's so hard to change anything here.
Make sure to tell your kids how brave you were in standing up for what is right.

endacl

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My grandson dresses up as Buzz Lightyear.


We did not have to sprinkle him with Disney dust or promise to obey Disney and shun all other animated film producers.

And what happens in the future when you want to enrol him in......

http://disney.go.com/gamekingdom/v1/marketing/index.html

Bannasidhe

joydivision wrote: »

Think im just gonna explain to them when they hit about 13 or 14 to forget all that holy joe stuff its just for kids .
Is this a terrible thing ?

'Hey kid, remember all that stuff you have been taught for the last 13 years about your soul and there being only one God and if you don't believe in that God you will spend eternity in the torment of hell?' Well, we were lying'.

Sounds like a plan....

endacl

eyescreamcone wrote: »

You and your sheeplike attitude is why it's so hard to change anything here.
Make sure to tell your kids how brave you were in standing up for what is right.

A little harsh, but true....

joydivision

Bannasidhe wrote: »

'Hey kid, remember all that stuff you have been taught for the last 13 years about your soul and there being only one God and if you don't believe in that God you will spend eternity in the torment of hell?' Well, we were lying'.

Sounds like a plan....

Hey sun remember repunzel . Itd be a white lie . Its not as if they will get religious teachings from me .
Maybe if my son was autistic or something like the fella from fair city that couldnt understand a little lie but im sure they wont be too bothered by it . I used to think wrestling waas real too .

eyescreamcone

joydivision wrote: »

Hey sun remember repunzel . Itd be a white lie . Its not as if they will get religious teachings from me .
Maybe if my son was autistic or something like the fella from fair city that couldnt understand a little lie but im sure they wont be too bothered by it . I used to think wrestling waas real too .

Wrestling is more real than bible stories