Savita dies due to refusal to terminate an unviable foetus.*Mod warning Post #1*

username123

Ellsbells wrote: »

You are just arguing for the sake of it.... I did say a healthy fetus... They are lost all the time due to natural causes. Abortion is not a natural cause. Its a choice one person makes to terminate the (potential) life of another. Its that simple. The reasons for having a termination may not be that simple but the fact is that simple.

Im sorry if you feel a reasoned debate is arguing for the sake of it. I respect your pov, I simply disagree with it. It is possible to make a point and not be arguing for the sake of it.

I have no problem with potential lives being terminated. They get spilled down a leg or on a bedsheet or prevented from implanting with the morning after pill or get lost through natural causes all the time. I dont see potential life as that sacred of a thing.

I also think that the conscious life in existence has far more right to be alive than something that is just a potential.

I wouldnt expect you to chain yourself to me and give me life support through your blood and organs anymore than I would expect you to go full term with an unwanted pregnancy, and Im an actual life, not a potential life.

Ellsbells

It beats me how a sperm becomes a fetus all by its little self but Ill drop this now as its heading off topic and we will NEVER agree..

Jack B. Badd

Ellsbells wrote: »

with a fetus the job is already done

Tell that to the incubator, I mean mother... o_O

Ellsbells

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

Tell that to the incubator, I mean mother... o_O

As you know thats not what was meant....

username123

Ellsbells wrote: »

It beats me how a sperm becomes a fetus all by its little self but Ill drop this now as its heading off topic and we will NEVER agree..

It beats me how a foetus becomes a baby all by its little self..........doesnt it need a womb?

Ellsbells

username123 wrote: »

It beats me how a foetus becomes a baby all by its little self..........doesnt it need a womb?

Indeed it does. You are catching on.

username123

Ellsbells wrote: »

Indeed it does. You are catching on.

So you agree then, a sperm and a foetus are the similar in terms of life potential. Both need external sources or events to continue along the path to becoming a person.

Ellsbells

username123 wrote: »

So you agree then, a sperm and a foetus are the similar in terms of life potential. Both need external sources or events to continue along the path to becoming a person.

They are not similar in that a sperm will only ever be a sperm whereas a fetus will be a human. A sperm unless it fertilises an egg can only live in the womb for around 5 days whereas a fetus can live in the womb and tgen outside the womb... how is that similar with regard life potential?

Anyway over and out.....

Carlos Orange

username123 wrote: »

So you agree then, a sperm and a foetus are the similar in terms of life potential. Both need external sources or events to continue along the path to becoming a person.

I don't know if this discussion has any place on this thread but since it exists.

Are new born babies people? I imagine they have a fairly low survival rate without external support.

username123

Ellsbells wrote: »

They are not similar in that a sperm will only ever be a sperm whereas a fetus will be a human. A sperm unless it fertilises an egg can only live in the womb for around 5 days whereas a fetus can live in the womb and tgen outside the womb... how is that similar with regard life potential?

Anyway over and out.....

So I take it you are against the morning after pill then? You seem to be saying that a life exists upon fertilisation.

username123

psinno wrote: »

I don't know if this discussion has any place on this thread but since it exists.

Are new born babies people? I imagine they have a fairly low survival rate without external support.

The point is that they are not dependent on another individuals existence for support. Anyone, including unrelated people, men or older children, can feed/change a baby. They have an independent existence once they are born.

Carlos Orange

username123 wrote: »

The point is that they are not dependent on another individuals existence for support. Anyone, including unrelated people, men or older children, can feed/change a baby. They have an independent existence once they are born.

Do they? It seems to me they are effectively just as dependent on external support but the external support can come for a much larger range of people.

goodie2shoes

Berlin at night wrote: »

Its insane that there are no ABORTION clinics in this country. Its a woman's body and if she wants to have an abortion she shold be allowed to go to a private abortion clinic of her choice.

If these pro-lifers don't like, then they don't have to have abortions do they, and stay the f**k out a pro-choice woman's face.

Sadly we don't have a real government (only a nest of self-serving, nest feathering cowards) in the true sense of the word. This shower, like previous clowns who have held office under the guise of government, will do their utmost to worm and wheedle their way from this issue.

Its so sad to see politicians (in name only) without a shred of self-respect, honesty or common decency, crawl and slither like insects, shirking away from A VERY SERIOUS ISSUE, frightened how it might impact on their votes.

The X case is a classic case of how these maggots work. Happy to a young girl's life RUINED, as they were alright Jack. And now SAVITA . . . where is their shame????????????????????

These worms forget that the rest of the world is watching how they are reacting. They are not fooling anybody.

I'm a bloke and I support women's right to ABORTION.

We'll get there in the end.

yet another example of what comes out of the woodwork, when this issue is "discussed".
can you imagine the bile-fest we'll have to endure if there's yet another abortion referendum?

as an aside why should we care how other countries view us anyhow?

Ellsbells

goodie2shoes wrote: »

as an aside why should we care how other countries view us anyhow?

Exactly! !! Why do irish people always feel the need to be liked & conform for other countries and peoples....

goodie2shoes

Ellsbells wrote: »

Exactly! !! Why do irish people always feel the need to be liked & conform for other countries and peoples....

i mean people are getting all hot 'n bothered because Indian people are (rightly) concerned about the Savita tragedy.

but has anyone ever taken any time to examine human rights issues/abuses (especially in relation to women/girls) in that country?

it's a bit like getting all worked up about how Iran views our treatment of gays.

Ellsbells

Ellsbells wrote: »

Exactly! !! Why do irish people always feel the need to be liked & conform for other countries and peoples....

Personally I don't want us to legislate in order to conform with other people, I want us to legislate because basic women's rights must be upheld - something most developed countries have managed to do a long time ago.

goodie2shoes

Flying Fox wrote: »

Personally I don't want us to legislate in order to conform with other people, I want us to legislate because basic women's rights must be upheld - something most developed countries have managed to do a long time ago.

and many people would believe that many of those developed countries have managed to get it badly wrong.

goodie2shoes

goodie2shoes wrote: »

and many people would believe that many of those developed countries have managed to get it badly wrong.

I'm sure many more would believe that they got it right, including the people of this country. But our gutless politicians are too scared to put it to a vote and would rather continue to export our problems.

goodie2shoes

Flying Fox wrote: »

I'm sure many more would believe that they got it right, including the people of this country. But our gutless politicians are too scared to put it to a vote and would rather continue to export our problems.

what are you basing this certainty on?

goodie2shoes

goodie2shoes wrote: »

what are you basing this certainty on?

People I've spoken to in the real world, as well as the results of the last four referenda which were won by the pro-choice side.

There are extremists on both sides but I think the majority of people want the situation dealt with in a reasonable way, i.e. legislating for X at the very least but not going as liberal as the UK. Just my reading of the situation.

goodie2shoes

Flying Fox wrote: »

People I've spoken to in the real world, as well as the results of the last four referenda which were won by the pro-choice side.

There are extremists on both sides but I think the majority of people want the situation dealt with in a reasonable way, i.e. legislating for X at the very least but not going as liberal as the UK. Just my reading of the situation.

i actually agree. the loonies on both sides cant wait for another abortion referendum. they love it. the banners, the marches, the bile-fest. food and drink for them it is.
most normal reasonable people just want it sorted.
i dont think we want a situation like they have in England. in fact my guess is quite a large percentage of English people are not happy about it either.

we pay these cowardly politicians quite a hefty wage, what with unvouched expenses and gold-plated pensions and all.
about time they started doing what they're being paid handsomely to do.

Bov

I was at the march in Dublin last Saturday. It was peaceful. I was happy to see a broad section of the community, couples, whole families with children. I was chatting two fellas who just came along to support.
It's time for Ireland to change and sadly, this case may be the turning point. I hope her death isn't in vain.

I am not Irish. I've lived in lots of different places, the Netherlands being my last. I am shocked by the lack of legislation and choice in Ireland on this important matter. Even women who know that they are carrying a baby that has severe congenital disabilities have to go to the UK to make a choice. It's just wrong. There have been a few comments relating to men, religion and politicians. Without wishing to be inflammatory or sounding anti men, women haven't really had much of a voice in religion or politics until the last couple of decades.

If the ability to become pregnant was a male ability the legislation would be clear and the Catholic church may not have encouraged people to have such large families. (historically speaking)

A termination should be granted on demand within a determined timescale. In my eyes it's ultimately a woman's decision. Her life is likely to change the most after the birth. Her job, her income therefore her dependency on her spouse. Of course there are situations where the dad stays home but not that many.
In Sweden equal maternity/ paternity time is given to both parents therefore an employer will not promote a male over a female because she may have a baby and lose time from work. That's where the world need to be heading.

In Savita's case I find it unbelievable that there was a delay. She may have died anyway if the infection had progressed far enough however given the current information she would have had a much better chance if they had terminated the pregnancy.

That said, Ireland is a very safe place to have a baby. All countries have something to deal with. Just as a point of interest, The Netherlands, although progressive, has a higher than normal rate of new born deaths in a developed country. This is thought to be accredited to their natural birthing policy. There is no pain relief offered, not even gas and air and 40% are home births.

I hope that change comes soon for Ireland. The politicians need to do a better job. Legislation is needed to protect both the patient and the medical staff and in my opinion it needs to be wider than only allowing for 'special cases' .

goodie2shoes

Bov wrote: »

I hope that change comes soon for Ireland. The politicians need to do a better job. Legislation is needed to protect both the patient and the medical staff and in my opinion it needs to be wider than only allowing for 'special cases' .

depends on what you mean by "soon".

it shouldn't be rushed imo, but it needs to acted on in a clear, cool, calculated manner.

as you said this country is still one of the safest countries on earth to have a baby. we shouldn't lose sight of that.

Berlin at night

goodie2shoes wrote: »

yet another example of what comes out of the woodwork, when this issue is "discussed".
can you imagine the bile-fest we'll have to endure if there's yet another abortion referendum?

as an aside why should we care how other countries view us anyhow?

What do you mean by that, what comes out of the woodwork? Are u insulting me?

And as for how others view us from abroad, who cares? That's your attitude, man, u have no idea how the world works, do you.

Berlin at night

goodie2shoes wrote: »

i actually agree. the loonies on both sides cant wait for another abortion referendum. they love it. the banners, the marches, the bile-fest. food and drink for them it is.
most normal reasonable people just want it sorted.
i dont think we want a situation like they have in England. in fact my guess is quite a large percentage of English people are not happy about it either.

we pay these cowardly politicians quite a hefty wage, what with unvouched expenses and gold-plated pensions and all.
about time they started doing what they're being paid handsomely to do.

I'm not a looney, I'm not a banner waving marcher - I just believe a woman's body is her own, and if she wants an abortion on demand, why shouldn't she have one in this country like every other normal country has.

Its a flamming embryo, not a human being we're talking about ffs. All these pro-life people going mental over a tadpole. They carry on as if some evil mad butcher with crazed eyes and malvolent grin with a bloodied apron goes tearing into the WOMB with a carving knife and a cork screw to murder a child. Sin against God yada yada. The whole thing is so pathetic. We need to legalise abortions now, set up clinics for them, and let whoever wants one get on with it. As for a woman in hospital in peril with a dying foetus inside her, or a foetus that is endangering her life, the doctors should be allowed to abort. Its such a no brainer, and save our women having to travel over the UK to get one.

Berlin at night

Ellsbells wrote: »

Exactly! !! Why do irish people always feel the need to be liked & conform for other countries and peoples....

Its not about conforming, its about being seen as a bunch of backwater retards to more enlightened countries on this subject. Nobody is expecting us to conform, just get rid of this barbaric and pathetic stance on abortion that at least 80% of our population want to get rid of.

We're not in f**kin' biblical times anymore, and we have proved that the earth is older than 6000 years, and last I heard we've sent men to the moon. Time to crawl into the modern world.

Bring in abortion and gay marriage and we'd show a statement of intent that we're getting with the programme.

eviltwin

goodie2shoes wrote: »

i dont think we want a situation like they have in England. in fact my guess is quite a large percentage of English people are not happy about it either.

.

We already have a situation like England, its just that it happens in England!!!! :mad:

Typical Irish solution to an Irish problem, sure we can pretend those 4000 odd women a year aren't really having abortions so long as it happens in another country.

I agree there are issues with the UK model that needs to be looked at but we can learn from those mistakes. I would like to see compulsory counselling so all options are explored and proper follow up care although thats probably never going to be the case even with legal abortion

goodie2shoes

eviltwin wrote: »

We already have a situation like England, its just that it happens in England!!!! :mad:

Typical Irish solution to an Irish problem, sure we can pretend those 4000 odd women a year aren't really having abortions so long as it happens in another country.

I agree there are issues with the UK model that needs to be looked at but we can learn from those mistakes. I would like to see compulsory counselling so all options are explored and proper follow up care although thats probably never going to be the case even with legal abortion

people travel outside their own countries to do all sorts of things, some good some not so good.
it doesn't follow that we have to mimic those other county's laws.

Bov

goodie2shoes wrote: »

people travel outside their own countries to do all sorts of things, some good some not so good.
it doesn't follow that we have to mimic those other county's laws.

Medical treatment and procedures should be available in the country where you live and pay for treatment. It's a hard enough decision to make without having to find a shed full of money in a short space of time and then to have to do it in secret and in shame away from your friends and family. Seriously! Is that really a viable option?

Ellsbells

Berlin at night wrote: »

Its not about conforming, its about being seen as a bunch of backwater retards to more enlightened countries on this subject. Nobody is expecting us to conform, just get rid of this barbaric and pathetic stance on abortion that at least 80% of our population want to get rid of.

We're not in f**kin' biblical times anymore, and we have proved that the earth is older than 6000 years, and last I heard we've sent men to the moon. Time to crawl into the modern world.

Bring in abortion and gay marriage and we'd show a statement of intent that we're getting with the programme.

More enlightened? India has gender abortions - is that enlightened? Btw you are still coming from the viewpoint of what other countries think of us - who cares