Voter suppression and fraud thread

Amerika

alastair wrote: »

On the 59 divisions: http://www.politifact.com/pennsylvania/statements/2016/aug/12/viral-image/internet-philly-rigged-2012-presidential-election-/



It (voter fraud) didn't happen.

The ruling on that matter was regarding the claim "(a) mathematical and statistical impossibility." I agree there is a mathematical possibility, just like there is a mathematical possibility that an asteroid will hit the earth next week and eradicate all life. Yes, Philadelphia is highly democratic, 20 Democrat to 1 Republican ratio on average, I believe. But ZERO votes for Romney? If you believe that I have a bridge leading into Brooklyn to sell you.

And the dead have a habit of voting in Philadelphia. Will the next argument be Voter ID laws unfairly disenfranchise zombies?

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

The ruling on that matter was regarding the claim "(a) mathematical and statistical impossibility." I agree there is a mathematical possibility, just like there is a mathematical possibility that an asteroid will hit the earth next week and eradicate all life. Yes, Philadelphia is highly democratic, 20 Democrat to 1 Republican ratio on average, I believe. But ZERO votes for Romney? If you believe that I have a bridge leading into Brooklyn to sell you.

And the dead have a habit of voting in Philadelphia. Will the next argument be Voter ID laws unfairly disenfranchise zombies?

No thoughts on the mechanisms ensuring people's votes, once cast, cannot be removed from a ballot in Philly? The mathematical argument isn't really relevant, if the accusation isn't actually supported by either evidence, or a definable mechanism for removing votes.

Amerika

alastair wrote: »

No thoughts on the mechanisms ensuring people's votes, once cast, cannot be removed from a ballot in Philly? The mathematical argument isn't really relevant, if the accusation isn't actually supported by either evidence, or a definable mechanism for removing votes.

If you're concerned about people's votes being removed from a ballot in Philly (like votes for Romney), then you should be in support of stricter voting laws.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

If you're concerned about people's votes being removed from a ballot in Philly (like votes for Romney), then you should be in support of stricter voting laws.

That made zero sense: voter ID has nothing to do with no Romney votes being tallied in the machines.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

That made zero sense: voter ID has nothing to do with no Romney votes being tallied in the machines.

Why? We need better election security in all forms… from making sure the person voting is eligible to vote, and that their vote is counted correctly. Now with electronic voting machine we know the machines can be hacked. And only 60% of states routinely conduct audits post-election by checking paper trails.

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

If you're concerned about people's votes being removed from a ballot in Philly (like votes for Romney), then you should be in support of stricter voting laws.

I'm not concerned at all. Nobody is removing votes in Philly.

1,700 divisions in Philly. 59 of them (in massively Democrat orientated areas) didn't produce a vote for Romney. There isn't a means of pulling votes, once balloted. Any evidence of voter fraud at play? No, there's not.

I’m the chief executive of the Committee of Seventy, a nonpartisan, nonprofit good-government organization in Philadelphia formed by private-sector leaders in 1904 with a primary mission to protect and improve the voting process. I’ve lived in Philadelphia for more than 30 years. I also happen to be a son of Dick Thornburgh, a former Republican governor of Pennsylvania and U.S. attorney general under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush. (For the record, I’m a registered independent.)

So I know what I’m talking about when I say that Trump’s charges are preposterous. They have no basis in fact, and they are dangerous and damaging to our democracy.

Trump has offered no evidence to support his claims, and it’s hard to beat nothing with something. But even if it won’t persuade him, for the sake of the rest of the country, let me review the reality of voting in Philadelphia...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/10/21/donald-trumps-conspiracy-theories-about-voting-in-philadelphia-are-preposterous/

Overheal

FISMA. wrote: »

I understand why a gun permit would be acceptable but a College ID would not and disagree with Overheal's "party politics" conclusion.

Most importantly, millions of people that go to college are not entitled to vote: foreign students, green card holders, and illegal immigrants for example.

Overheal regrets regrettably that Overheal could not respond to FISMA.'s post sooner because Overheal was not near a Personal Computer.

Overheal never made any party politics conclusion Overheal left that up to readers like FISMA. to decide for themselves.

Overheal is happy to point out that weapons and CCW permits are not restricted to US Citizens:

http://www.amren.com/news/2013/04/court-rules-legal-immigrants-can-carry-concealed-weapons/

In the New Mexico case, a federal court Monday enjoined the state’s law, saying that there is no compelling reason for the state to discriminate against noncitizens in the case of gun ownership.

“The citizenship requirement is overinclusive; it encompasses a large number of noncitizens who, by virtue of their status alone, pose no greater risk of harm to public safety,” Judge M. Christina Armijo wrote.

FISMA. himself even failed to acknowledge in his "good moral character" list, any requirement that the obtainment of such a license required citizenship, and therefore is just as dubious for this purpose as any College ID would be.

If Overheal would care to make known either of the "situations" quoted, we could have more clarity on the details of the matter.

Overheal is perplexed by FISMA.'s new heightened scrutiny on this established claim, one for which FISMA. previously called, "understandable." Overheal presumes that somewhere between 02-11-2016 20:58 EST and 03-11-2016 17:21 EST that this understanding somehow vanished. Fortunately Overheal would be happy to oblige using Overheal's prowess with the internet search engine, Google:

In 2011, Texas removed already-established use of Student IDs to vote, while simultaneously permitting the use of Gun Permits as a reasonable form of ID: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/texans-gun-permits-student-ids-voting_n_1095530.html

Which is the most infamous case where this occurred, the change in the law happening the summer prior to a crucial 2012 vote; however it's worth noting that the electoral map in Texas did not move an inch either way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Texas,_2008
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Texas,_2012

Georgia is mixed on ID requirements for students with some seemingly fair caveats; Wisconsin even covered the cost of updating IDs to a heightened standard for this purpose: http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/17/13332451-that-student-id-may-not-get-you-into-the-voting-booth

Overheal is glad to be of service.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

Why? We need better election security in all forms… from making sure the person voting is eligible to vote, and that their vote is counted correctly. Now with electronic voting machine we know the machines can be hacked. And only 60% of states routinely conduct audits post-election by checking paper trails.

Please describe how an ID will prevent a ballot from being removed from a voting machine.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

Please describe how an ID will prevent a ballot from being removed from a voting machine.

Those are two different subjects in the overall goal to make sure the voting system is valid. Perhaps I didn't make that clear.

Gotta love Philadelphia… they love free stuff. So much of the state taxes go there to insure they pay less for their public services than the rest of us. No wonder they do what they can to insure a democratic rule.

And Philadelphia Commissioner Al Schmidt said just the other week that voter fraud indeed exists in Philadelphia.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-06/more-illegal-immigrant-voters-discovered-philly-just-tip-iceberg

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

And Philadelphia Commissioner Al Schmidt said just the other week that voter fraud indeed exists in Philadelphia.

Yes he did:

In the last two years, 10 Philadelphia residents have been indicted for voter fraud, Schmidt said. Eight of them pleaded guilty.

Such cases include voters being permitted by election workers to cast ballots for their spouses or a sick friend or relative, Schmidt said. But in one case, three election workers pleaded guilty to adding six votes at the end of Election Day.

No dead voting, no removal of votes. A very small number of instances where there's no indication of the sort of conspiracies that the GOP like's to talk up.

Amerika

alastair wrote: »

Yes he did:


No dead voting, no removal of votes. A very small number of instances where there's no indication of the sort of conspiracies that the GOP like's to talk up.

Is it your contention that the low number of discovered fraud cases means that only that exact amount of voter fraud happened? If 100 people were cited for jaywalking in Philadelphia last year does that mean that only 100 people jaywalked? I’d bet it only indicates that a lack of enforcement is failing to reveal the bulk of the violations that is occurring, and the real number of cases is likely significantly higher than the number reported.

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

Is it your contention that the low number of discovered fraud cases means that only that exact amount of voter fraud happened? If 100 people were cited for jaywalking in Philadelphia last year does that mean that only 100 people jaywalked? I’d bet it only indicates that a lack of enforcement is failing to reveal the bulk of the violations that is occurring, and the real number of cases is likely significantly higher than the number reported.

Jeez - quite the lineup of strawman arguments. You claimed that Commissioner Al Schmidt said voter fraud exists. He did, but it's of a manner and frequency at odds with the talking points you were rolling out.

Here's the commissioner's overview of the issue:

"If voter fraud was occurring in a widespread conspiracy to sway a presidential election it would have been the easiest thing to see."

“The real threat to the integrity of elections in Philadelphia isn’t voter fraud.”

“The real threat to the integrity of elections is irresponsible accusations that undermine confidence in the electoral process.”

Amerika

alastair wrote: »

Jeez - quite the lineup of strawman arguments. You claimed that Commissioner Al Schmidt said voter fraud exists. He did, but it's of a manner and frequency at odds with the talking points you were rolling out.

Here's the commissioner's overview of the issue:

He couldn't make himself look incompetent in an inability to deal effectively with voter fraud, now could he?

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

He couldn't make himself look incompetent in an inability to deal effectively with voter fraud, now could he?

That's your argument? And remind me where the evidence of voter fraud in Philly comes from again?

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

Is it your contention that the low number of discovered fraud cases means that only that exact amount of voter fraud happened? If 100 people were cited for jaywalking in Philadelphia last year does that mean that only 100 people jaywalked? I’d bet it only indicates that a lack of enforcement is failing to reveal the bulk of the violations that is occurring, and the real number of cases is likely significantly higher than the number reported.

So by your logic, Trump is rigging the election

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/donald-trump-supporter-iowa-arrested-voter-fraud-article-1.2850101

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/presidential/Trump-supporter-arrested-voter-fraud-polls-are-rigged.html

FISMA.

Overheal wrote: »

Overheal regrets regrettably that Overheal could not respond to FISMA.'s post sooner because Overheal was not near a Personal Computer.

Overheal never made any party politics conclusion Overheal left that up to readers like FISMA. to decide for themselves.

Overheal is happy to point out that weapons and CCW permits are not restricted to US Citizens:

http://www.amren.com/news/2013/04/court-rules-legal-immigrants-can-carry-concealed-weapons/

In the New Mexico case, a federal court Monday enjoined the state’s law, saying that there is no compelling reason for the state to discriminate against noncitizens in the case of gun ownership.

“The citizenship requirement is overinclusive; it encompasses a large number of noncitizens who, by virtue of their status alone, pose no greater risk of harm to public safety,” Judge M. Christina Armijo wrote.

FISMA. himself even failed to acknowledge in his "good moral character" list, any requirement that the obtainment of such a license required citizenship, and therefore is just as dubious for this purpose as any College ID would be.


Overheal is perplexed by FISMA.'s new heightened scrutiny on this established claim, one for which FISMA. previously called, "understandable." Overheal presumes that somewhere between 02-11-2016 20:58 EST and 03-11-2016 17:21 EST that this understanding somehow vanished. Fortunately Overheal would be happy to oblige using Overheal's prowess with the internet search engine, Google:

In 2011, Texas removed already-established use of Student IDs to vote, while simultaneously permitting the use of Gun Permits as a reasonable form of ID: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/texans-gun-permits-student-ids-voting_n_1095530.html

Which is the most infamous case where this occurred, the change in the law happening the summer prior to a crucial 2012 vote; however it's worth noting that the electoral map in Texas did not move an inch either way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Texas,_2008
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Texas,_2012

Georgia is mixed on ID requirements for students with some seemingly fair caveats; Wisconsin even covered the cost of updating IDs to a heightened standard for this purpose: http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/17/13332451-that-student-id-may-not-get-you-into-the-voting-booth

Overheal is glad to be of service.

Feel better?

Overheal

FISMA. wrote: »

Feel better?

Well I was right here didn't your mom tell you not to do that!

FISMA.

Overheal wrote: »

Overheal regrets regrettably that Overheal could not respond to FISMA.'s post sooner because Overheal was not near a Personal Computer.

Overheal never made any party politics conclusion Overheal left that up to readers like FISMA. to decide for themselves.

Overheal is happy to point out that weapons and CCW permits are not restricted to US Citizens:

http://www.amren.com/news/2013/04/court-rules-legal-immigrants-can-carry-concealed-weapons/

In the New Mexico case, a federal court Monday enjoined the state’s law, saying that there is no compelling reason for the state to discriminate against noncitizens in the case of gun ownership.

“The citizenship requirement is overinclusive; it encompasses a large number of noncitizens who, by virtue of their status alone, pose no greater risk of harm to public safety,” Judge M. Christina Armijo wrote.

FISMA. himself even failed to acknowledge in his "good moral character" list, any requirement that the obtainment of such a license required citizenship, and therefore is just as dubious for this purpose as any College ID would be.


Overheal is perplexed by FISMA.'s new heightened scrutiny on this established claim, one for which FISMA. previously called, "understandable." Overheal presumes that somewhere between 02-11-2016 20:58 EST and 03-11-2016 17:21 EST that this understanding somehow vanished. Fortunately Overheal would be happy to oblige using Overheal's prowess with the internet search engine, Google:

In 2011, Texas removed already-established use of Student IDs to vote, while simultaneously permitting the use of Gun Permits as a reasonable form of ID: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/texans-gun-permits-student-ids-voting_n_1095530.html

Which is the most infamous case where this occurred, the change in the law happening the summer prior to a crucial 2012 vote; however it's worth noting that the electoral map in Texas did not move an inch either way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Texas,_2008
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Texas,_2012

Georgia is mixed on ID requirements for students with some seemingly fair caveats; Wisconsin even covered the cost of updating IDs to a heightened standard for this purpose: http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/17/13332451-that-student-id-may-not-get-you-into-the-voting-booth

Overheal is glad to be of service.

No one said that ID should prove citizenship. Just that some ID's are better vetted than others.

An ID that has been checked at Local, State, and Federal levels supersedes a college ID.

Anyhow, back to what you were saying...

Overheal wrote: »

Well I was right here didn't your mom tell you not to do that!

Overheal

Hundreds of voting locations closed since 2012. Why?

https://www.thenation.com/article/there-are-868-fewer-places-to-vote-in-2016-because-the-supreme-court-gutted-the-voting-rights-act/

Annasopra

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

In Ireland you don't need ID to vote.

You do

Fr Tod Umptious

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You do

Correct, you need to be able to verify your identity if requested.

Most people don't get asked though.

ancapailldorcha

FISMA. wrote: »

Feel better?

Overheal wrote: »

Well I was right here didn't your mom tell you not to do that!

Enough of this.

Amerika

Looks like the Pennsylvania State Police are going after voter fraud in Philadelphia, ahead of the election... GOOD!

http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/pennsylvania-state-police-raid-registration-offices-voter-fraud-sting/

Nody

Amerika wrote: »

Looks like the Pennsylvania State Police are going after voter fraud in Philadelphia, ahead of the election... GOOD!

http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/pennsylvania-state-police-raid-registration-offices-voter-fraud-sting/

And sorting out illegal vote removal in North Carolina by a Conservative support group.

Michael Hyers, an Air Force retiree from Fayetteville, North Carolina, has spent hours upon hours combing through records, cross-checking addresses and submitting thousands of challenges to voter registrations in an effort to purge voter rolls at the local Cumberland County elections board. He claims to have removed 6,000 people from voter rolls since 2014.

The challenges submitted by Hyers and his group, the Voter Integrity Project, a conservative organization that believes systemic voter fraud exists, became part of a federal lawsuit that accused officials in three North Carolina counties of illegal voter-roll purges that disproportionately targeted African-Americans.

The lawsuit, filed by the NAACP, garnered the attention of the Justice Department and independent elections-monitoring groups, and on Friday, a federal judge ordered the state and local boards to restore the purged voters.
Federal judge Loretta Biggs described the purges as a "flawed process" and specifically noted that one individual in Cumberland County -- where Hyers lives -- challenged the registration of approximately 4,000 local voters.
The North Carolina Board of Elections has no evidence the election will be affected by fraud, and in a statement to CNN, a spokesperson said the board works to ensure the integrity of the elections process by investigating allegations, conducting audits during the early voting period and working in partnership with the Department of Homeland Security.

Hotblack Desiato

Long, but good article here (Guardian, via the Irish Times)

Claims of ‘large-scale’ voter fraud raises fears of election day violence

BTW as already stated I wouldn't regard many of the forms of "ID" acceptable in Ireland for voting as ID, a bank card for instance. If I find Joe Bloggs' wallet on election morning and have a good idea which polling station he's registered at, does his bank card identify me?

Overheal

Line to vote early in Cincinnati today: half a mile long

http://www.vox.com/presidential-election/2016/11/6/13542680/there-are-4000-people-in-a-half-mile-voting-line-in-cincinnati-today-this-isn-t-ok

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

Line to vote early in Cincinnati today: half a mile long

http://www.vox.com/presidential-election/2016/11/6/13542680/there-are-4000-people-in-a-half-mile-voting-line-in-cincinnati-today-this-isn-t-ok

I'm guessing if people would have had to show valid photo ID to vote, things would have gone much quicker.

8-10

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Long, but good article here (Guardian, via the Irish Times)

Claims of ‘large-scale’ voter fraud raises fears of election day violence

BTW as already stated I wouldn't regard many of the forms of "ID" acceptable in Ireland for voting as ID, a bank card for instance. If I find Joe Bloggs' wallet on election morning and have a good idea which polling station he's registered at, does his bank card identify me?

If I find someone's bank card and I want to do something suspect with it, it's not going to be voting!

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

I'm guessing if people would have had to show valid photo ID to vote, things would have gone much quicker.

How? Youre just not even trying anymore.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

How? Youre just not even trying anymore.

Things that are self evident don't need a whole lot of 'trying.'

Have you ever been to the DMV? I have had the unfortunate luck of spending many, many, many hours in the DMV as of late. Things go smooth when people have the proper information. What causes the bottlenecks? Improper information and ID... Yeah, you guessed it.

You have proper ID... go vote. You don't have proper ID, now we need to go through a whole series of time consuming procedures in order to allow you the opportunity to vote... Some things are just a matter of common sense.