Voter suppression and fraud thread

Ozymandius2011

I thought this thread would be useful for discussing attempts by the parties to commit fraud or suppress legitimate voters from exercising their franchise:Repuke judge upholds disenfranchisement even caused by incorrect instructions from poll workers:

BREAKING: Three Bush-Appointed Judges Give Thumbs Up To Voter Disenfranchisement In Ohio

Late last week, a federal district court ordered Ohio to stop disenfranchising voters who are directed to vote at the wrong polling place due to poll worker error. Earlier today (10/31/12), a severely conservative panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit stayed this order, ruling that Ohio may disenfranchise these voters — even when their error is due to false instructions from a poll worker — because they believed allowing these votes to be counted would “absolve[] voters of all responsibility for voting in the correct precinct.”

GOP-linked company allegedly forging signatures on registration forms:

CNN wrote:

Recent news reports suggest that if there is an actual attempt at systemic voter fraud, it's coming from GOP-affiliated groups. Meet Nathan Sproul: a longtime Republican operative paid $3 million by the Republican Party to register voters in five states this cycle. Evidence suggests Sproul's company, Strategic Allied Consulting, has been systematically encouraging falsifying signatures and having workers lie to voters. The GOP severed ties with Sproul's group when these allegations became public, but his relationships with the party and affiliated groups date back to 2004, and the allegations against him date back almost as long.

Meanwhile in Florida, the GOP governor refuses to extend early voting hours:

WASHINGTON -- Once again, Florida and its problems at the polls are at the center of an election.

Early voting is supposed to make it easier for people to carry out their constitutional right. Tuesdays are notoriously inconvenient to take off work, so many states have given voters the option of turning out on weekends or other weekdays in the run-up to Election Day.

But in Florida this year, it has been a nightmare for voters, who have faced record wait times, long lines in the sun and a Republican governor, Rick Scott, who has refused to budge and extend early voting hours.

"People are getting out to vote. That's what's very good," said Scott.

People are getting out to vote -- but many of them are having to wait in line for three or four hours to do so. One contributor to DailyKos claimed it took 9 hours to vote. In Miami-Dade on Saturday, people who had gotten in line by 7:00 p.m. were allowed to vote; the last person wasn't checked in until 1 a.m., meaning it took some individuals six hours to cast a ballot.

"We're looking at an election meltdown that is eerily similar to 2000, minus the hanging chads," said Dan Smith, a political science professor at the University of Florida.

Miami-Dade attempted to deal with the problem on Sunday by allowing voters to cast absentee ballots in person between 1:00 and 5:00 p.m. However, after just two hours, the Miami-Dade elections department shut down the location after too many people showed up. People outside the locked doors were reportedly screaming, "We want to vote!"

And if getting turned away from the polls weren't enough of an indignity, some of those 180 people ended up getting their cars towed from the parking lot across the street, according to a Miami Herald reporter.

On Twitter, former Republican governor Charlie Crist -- who is now an independent -- responded to news of the office's closing, writing on Twitter, "Let the people vote!"

“We had the best of intentions to provide this service today,” said department spokeswoman Christina White. “We just can’t accommodate it to the degree that we would like to.”

About 30 minutes later, a Miami Herald reporter tweeted that the Miami-Dade location was reopening its doors.

Palm Beach, Pinellas, Orange, Leon and Hillsborough Counties also opened up in-person absentee voting on Sunday.

President Barack Obama's campaign and some of its supporters were attempting to keep people's spirits up -- and discourage them from abandoning the lines -- by bringing in food, water and even local musicians and DJs as entertainment.

North Miami Mayor Andre Pierre brought 400 slices of pizza to voters in line at 10:30 p.m. on Saturday night at the city's public library, according to an Obama official.

While many Democrats viewed it as a victory when a few offices opened absentee balloting on Sunday, the process is not the same as early voting -- and could result in more individuals not having their votes counted.

"Absentee ballots have a much higher rejection rate for minorities and young people, if you look at the Aug. 14 primary," said Smith.

A major reason there are so many problems at the polls is that last year, Florida's GOP-controlled legislature shortened the number of early voting days from 14 to eight, meaning all early voters are trying to cast their ballots in a shorter window. Previously, Floridians were allowed to vote on the Sunday before Election Day -- a day that typically had high traffic.

But losing that final Sunday isn't the only problem. Smith said that he and Dartmouth professor Michael Herron found that in 2008, voters 65 or older were much more likely to cast ballots in the first five days of early voting than members of other age groups, alleviating some of the pressure at the polls in the remaining days. Those extra days, however, are gone this year, leading to a compression that the system has been unable to handle.

Scott has refused to extend early voting hours, essentially arguing that there is no problem, despite calls from Democrats, independent groups and even a Republican elections supervisor. He is arguing that he can extend early voting hours only when there is a true emergency -- like a natural disaster -- that warrants it.

"I'm focused on making sure that we have fair, honest elections," said Scott. "One thing to know, these early voting days and on Election Day, if you're there by the time the polls close, you get to vote."

Scott has some of the lowest approval ratings of any governor in the nation. In recent Quinnipiac poll, just 39 percent of Floridians said they approved of the job he is doing. Scott, unlike many other GOP governors, has not hit the campaign trail much on behalf of Mitt Romney.

As Florida Democrats have pointed out, the state's previous two Republican governors -- Jeb Bush and Crist -- both extended the hours. A spokesman for Bush didn't return a request for comment.

A judge extended the hours in Orange County after the state Democratic Party sued for more time. The location was closed for several hours on Saturday when everyone was evacuated due to a suspicious package.

Democrats are traditionally more likely to vote early, which is why many in the party have ascribed political motives to Scott's restriction of the process. According to a report in the Miami Herald on Saturday, Democrats were leading Republicans "by about 187,000 early in-person ballots cast" as of that morning.

On Election Day, there will be fewer polling precincts this year than in 2008 -- due to redistricting and budget constraints -- meaning traffic on Tuesday could also be a problem.

Florida is expected to be tight in this election. According to HuffPost Pollster's average of polls in the race, Romney is now leading Obama in the state by less than one percentage point.

I think this is outrageous. The GOP know that minorities overwhelmingly vote Democrat. How can they sleep at night knowing they are destroying the world's greatest democracy?

Victor

What is the problem with employing enough polling clerks? Just about every other country manages to run their election in one or two days - recent exceptions being Afghanistan and Syria.

Surely if you spend €500 million campaigning, you can spend €100 million on employing enough clerks.

Ozymandius2011

Teaparty vigilantees True the Vote descending on polling-stations to intimidate minority voters. They claim they are stopping fraud but they are telling their people to make voters feel like the police are following them:

WASHINGTON -- Concerned that a veritable army of Tea Partyers will descend on polling places in minority neighborhoods to challenge and intimidate voters on Election Day, two public interest groups on Monday called for government officials to take extra steps to protect voters' rights.

A new report from Common Cause and Demos, titled "Bullies at the Ballot Box," describes efforts by right-wing groups -- foremost among them, a Tea Party spin-off group called True the Vote -- to train as many as a million volunteers in "poll-watching."

"I think we have seen a much more coordinated and well-funded effort than we've seen in years past, and that's why it's so concerning," said Jenny Flanagan, director of voting and elections at Common Cause and one of the report's authors.

"The message behind their tactic I think is what's most concerning to us," she said, because the groups appear to be "targeting racial minorities and others who have a past of being targeted."

The report notes that True the Vote official Bill Ouren has told volunteers they should make voters feel "like driving and seeing the police following you." And the president of True the Vote coalition partner Judicial Watch has accused the Obama administration of trying to mobilize "the food stamp army" and "steal the election" with the "illegal alien vote."

True the Vote officials did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

"There is a real danger that voters will face overzealous volunteers who take the law into their own hands to target voters they deem suspect," the report concludes.

Voter intimidation at the polls would be the final act in a series of moves by various conservative organizations intended to limit participation by traditionally Democratic demographic groups, most notably minorities and students, in 2012.

Monday's report focuses on 10 swing states where it finds a mixed bag of state laws regarding such things as voter challenges before Election Day -- based on such things are returned mail -- and voter challenges on Election Day -- including limits on interference by poll watchers.

Federal law prohibits intimidation of voters, but as with the state rules, "those laws need to be enforced to be effective," Flanagan said.

The U.S. Department of Justice has not announced any special precautions for the November election. Its standard procedure is to assign election monitors and observers to polling places around the country on Election Day.

In NC, election officals are investigating someone on a tractor with effigies of President Obama hanging from a gallows.

A stroke victim's absentee ballot thrown out because the stroke had made his signature change and so it wasn't the one on record with Volusia County FL.

Huffington Post wrote:

People who fill out absentee ballots and send them in typically assume that their votes will get counted. But for more 400 voters in Volusia County, Fla., that is not the case, according to the Daytona Beach News-Journal. For the Nov 6. general election, the elections office there has rejected 407 absentee ballots, saying 251 lacked voter signatures and 153 didn't match election records (153).

Daytona Beach voter Bill Archer was among those whose ballot got thrown out. In his case, his signature had changed due to recent strokes. "I hope I don't become part of voter suppression," he told the newspaper. "I've been voting for years; we filled out that registration in good faith, and then to find out I was just stricken. ... ,I didn't survive seven strokes for this."

The newspaper writes: "Archer initially thought he could provide an updated signature -- he signs initials with his left hand now, instead of his full name with his right -- but Volusia's elections supervisor Ann McFall said Wednesday that's not an option.""

Possible violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Overall around 400 absentee ballots thrown out over signatures being different from those on the county's file or else having not provided a signature.

Manic Moran

Victor wrote: »

What is the problem with employing enough polling clerks? Just about every other country manages to run their election in one or two days - recent exceptions being Afghanistan and Syria.

Surely if you spend €500 million campaigning, you can spend €100 million on employing enough clerks.

I have no idea, and it's a valid question.

It doesn't take a hell of a long time to vote either, I'm never in the booth more than about four minutes, and that's filling out on average four forms.

Ozymandius2011

The biggest danger of fraud is in the tabulation of the vote totals from the machines. This is where a middle-man hack is supposed to have flipped 300,000 votes to Bush in 2004. The late Michael Connell - a crony of Karl Rove - is supposed to have been that middle man, transferring the data to a server in Chatanooga TN in a building also used by the RNC.

Manic Moran

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

The biggest danger of fraud is in the tabulation of the vote totals from the machines. This is where a middle-man hack is supposed to have flipped 300,000 votes to Bush in 2004. The late Michael Connell - a crony of Karl Rove - is supposed to have been that middle man, transferring the data to a server in Chatanooga TN in a building also used by the RNC.

Can we just keep this thread to the current reports and leave eight year old conspiracy theories out of it?

On the matter of extending early voter hours or not, I guess there are some philosophical and practical questions the answers to which I have not seen. For example, early voting already is an extension, presumably a convenience to those who will find it difficult to vote on the actual election day. How much of a moral imperative is there to staff the polls at "full capacity" simply because people are eager to vote several days early? And on a practical matter, who pays for the overtime involved in keeping the polls open longer? Not just for the poll workers themselves who are relatively cheap, but also the ancillary staff such as the police or Dept of State people who are also required to be on duty as the polls are open? There is much greater obligation to incur those costs of extended hours on the scheduled election day when it is known that it is a "if not now, then never" situation but they would know it was necessary then only if the full voting period originally allocated was proven to have been inadequate

Manic Moran

Manic Moran wrote: »

On the matter of extending early voter hours or not, I guess there are some philosophical and practical questions the answers to which I have not seen. For example, early voting already is an extension, presumably a convenience to those who will find it difficult to vote on the actual election day. How much of a moral imperative is there to staff the polls at "full capacity" simply because people are eager to vote several days early? And on a practical matter, who pays for the overtime involved in keeping the polls open longer? Not just for the poll workers themselves who are relatively cheap, but also the ancillary staff such as the police or Dept of State people who are also required to be on duty as the polls are open? There is much greater obligation to incur those costs of extended hours on the scheduled election day when it is known that it is a "if not now, then never" situation but they would know it was necessary then only if the full voting period originally allocated was proven to have been inadequate

The thing is that early hours voting can be extended, the deadline can't. It seems to happy way too often that there are massive queues at closing time. The problem doesn't seem to be people all turning up at once in a lot of cases, it seems to be a straightforward lack of capacity.

As for the absentee ballots issue, was it 2 million were rejected last time around? If it's anything like the same this time it could be decisive.

Higher

Even Sky News are now mentioning how voters are being supressed in minority areas. What on earth is going on? American election looking like a Russian one

Higher

Taken from another site:

Official voters guides in Arizona telling English-speakers to vote on November 6th and Spanish-speakers to vote on November 8th (after the election).

http://tinyurl.com/95tqub7

Bomb squads detonating suspicious packages at Florida voting booths.

http://tinyurl.com/bd6trf8

Phone calls telling Democrats that the election has been moved to November 7th because of Hurricane Sandy.

http://tinyurl.com/bctsmgn

Billboards in Ohio in largely African-American and Latino neighborhoods intimidating people from voting.

http://tinyurl.com/alr35xb

People having to wait 3 hours in line because of strategic limitation of early voting.

http://tinyurl.com/dxfmxo3

Missing absentee ballots in largely African-American parts of Florida.

http://tinyurl.com/bczmdyw

Ads in Pennsylvania telling voters they need photo ID even when that law was struck down and they don't need it at all.

http://tinyurl.com/9ftcwyj

Seniors in Virginia being dishonestly told that they can vote over the phone.

http://tinyurl.com/a9v25b9

Folks in Florida (mostly Republicans) being sent official-looking letters saying they've been removed from the voting rolls.

http://tinyurl.com/ab3m2uv

The Romney campaign in Wisconsin including overt lies about people's voting rights (including lying about handicapped people needing a certification letter to vote) in the training materials for official poll workers.

http://tinyurl.com/9j3xk9h

nagilum2

Here's a couple others. Lines stretched for hours in DC. There were only 2 or 8 machines operating, and there no paper ballots available.
http://dcist.com/2012/10/long_line_reported_at_many_early_vo.php

In Maryland, some voters waited over 5 hours to cast their ballots and there were more reports of problems:
http://dcist.com/2012/10/long_line_reported_at_many_early_vo.php

The fact that both of these places are 100% run by Democrats is a total smokescreen. These so called Democrats running DC and Maryland are really Republican plants that have been biding their time, pretending to be loyal Democrats for decades just waiting for their opportunity to disenfranchise hoards of Democratic voters.

[-0-]

This is horrifying.

Ozymandius2011

GOP venture capitalist Stephen Einhorn exposed by MSNBC as the man behind these billboards in minority areas.

Manic Moran

Again, my opinion is that anyone who feels like they shouldn't vote because a sign says 'Voter fraud is a felony' (which it is), probably shouldn't be voting. Disenfranchising is when you remove the ability for someone else to have their say. Declining to go vote because you're too stupid to figure out that voting normally is not fraud doesn't count.

Higher

Manic Moran wrote: »

Again, my opinion is that anyone who feels like they shouldn't vote because a sign says 'Voter fraud is a felony' (which it is), probably shouldn't be voting. Disenfranchising is when you remove the ability for someone else to have their say. Declining to go vote because you're too stupid to figure out that voting normally is not fraud doesn't count.

Come on Manic Moran, these signs are only in poor, black areas where the illiteracy rate is through the roof. They are clearly an attempt to prevent poor, black Americans from voting. They are utterly absent in white areas and rich areas.

Mjollnir

The best site that covers this issue that I've found, hands down, is BradBlog

http://bradblog.com/

And this little doozy just got noticed by a friend who lives in Ohio:

http://vote.franklincountyohio.gov/voter/ballots/SAMPLE_0405.pdf

The POTUS and VP listed LAST in the column for those offices.

There's noting these clowns won't stoop to.

Manic Moran

I'm not saying they're not targetted for effect, I'm saying it's not disenfranchisement.

Have you heard a single one of the campaign adverts for either a candidate or a referendum proposition? They are all based on scaremongering, selective facts, trigger phrases and the like, designed to affect the specific listener on the basis that they will act on reflex instead of if they take the time to actually research the issues. The billboard thing is no different, in my mind, to my listening on the radio and hearing about how Prop X is going to remove three gadjillion dollars from schools panders to big oil, all with dour music playing in a minor key in the background.

It may be a sad reflection on the sate of the US's voting population that these things work, but work they do, and the only people to blame for it are the voters that don't arse themselves to put two brain cells together and look at things critically.

Manic Moran

Mjollnir wrote: »

And this little doozy just got noticed by a friend who lives in Ohio:

http://vote.franklincountyohio.gov/voter/ballots/SAMPLE_0405.pdf

The POTUS and VP listed LAST in the column for those offices.

There's noting these clowns won't stoop to.

They're last on my ballot sheet here in California as well. Curse those Democrats in charge in the San Francisco area for determining the sequence of parties on the ballot by random lot and putting Obama underneath Rosanne Barr.

NTM

Gandhi

Higher wrote: »

Come on Manic Moran, these signs are only in poor, black areas where the illiteracy rate is through the roof. They are clearly an attempt to prevent poor, black Americans from voting. They are utterly absent in white areas and rich areas.

So they are using written notices on billboards to target their message to illiterate people? That's definitely going to work.

Most billboards are along busy roadways to target people driving past. Nobody wants to live near a busy roadway, so the majority of people who do are poor people who can't afford to live anywhere else. Anything on a billboard is going to be in a predominantly poor neighborhoods, because that is where most of the billboards are. And the fact is that in American cities, a poor neighborhood is often a black neighborhood.

I see billboards all the time in Philly advertising high-end jewelry stores and fur coat outlets that are in poor neighborhoods because they are targeting the people driving on the highway that cuts through there.

Every day for weeks now, I am seeing and hearing the Pennsylvania "You will be asked to show ID as a reminder that it will be a requirement in the future, but you do NOT have to show ID to vote in this election" ads and to call them confusing is laughable. You'd need to have the IQ of toilet seat to be confused by those ads.

Not saying that election shenanigans don't happen, but some of the hysterical articles going around are seriously grasping at straws.

Higher

Gandhi wrote: »

So they are using written notices on billboards to target their message to illiterate people? That's definitely going to work.

Most billboards are along busy roadways to target people driving past. Nobody wants to live near a busy roadway, so the majority of people who do are poor people who can't afford to live anywhere else. Anything on a billboard is going to be in a predominantly poor neighborhoods, because that is where most of the billboards are. And the fact is that in American cities, a poor neighborhood is often a black neighborhood.

I see billboards all the time in Philly advertising high-end jewelry stores and fur coat outlets that are in poor neighborhoods because they are targeting the people driving on the highway that cuts through there.

Every day for weeks now, I am seeing and hearing the Pennsylvania "You will be asked to show ID as a reminder that it will be a requirement in the future, but you do NOT have to show ID to vote in this election" ads and to call them confusing is laughable. You'd need to have the IQ of toilet seat to be confused by those ads.

Not saying that election shenanigans don't happen, but some of the hysterical articles going around are seriously grasping at straws.

These billboards aren't on motorways, there in the middle of these areas. And a non partisan group has found that many were disauded from voting as a result of the confusion made by the billboards.

Higher

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm not saying they're not targetted for effect, I'm saying it's not disenfranchisement.

Have you heard a single one of the campaign adverts for either a candidate or a referendum proposition? They are all based on scaremongering, selective facts, trigger phrases and the like, designed to affect the specific listener on the basis that they will act on reflex instead of if they take the time to actually research the issues. The billboard thing is no different, in my mind, to my listening on the radio and hearing about how Prop X is going to remove three gadjillion dollars from schools panders to big oil, all with dour music playing in a minor key in the background.

It may be a sad reflection on the sate of the US's voting population that these things work, but work they do, and the only people to blame for it are the voters that don't arse themselves to put two brain cells together and look at things critically.

Can you not see the difference between parties trying to persaude voters to vote for them and what the billboards do which actively trying to PREVENT a racial group from voting? I can't believe you'd even try to defend it

Higher

Gandhi wrote: »

So they are using written notices on billboards to target their message to illiterate people? That's definitely going to work.

Most billboards are along busy roadways to target people driving past. Nobody wants to live near a busy roadway, so the majority of people who do are poor people who can't afford to live anywhere else. Anything on a billboard is going to be in a predominantly poor neighborhoods, because that is where most of the billboards are. And the fact is that in American cities, a poor neighborhood is often a black neighborhood.

I see billboards all the time in Philly advertising high-end jewelry stores and fur coat outlets that are in poor neighborhoods because they are targeting the people driving on the highway that cuts through there.

Every day for weeks now, I am seeing and hearing the Pennsylvania "You will be asked to show ID as a reminder that it will be a requirement in the future, but you do NOT have to show ID to vote in this election" ads and to call them confusing is laughable. You'd need to have the IQ of toilet seat to be confused by those ads.

Not saying that election shenanigans don't happen, but some of the hysterical articles going around are seriously grasping at straws.

Ah so its just a coincidence that ALL of these signs are:
(1) In battleground states
(2) Paid for by GOP funders
(3) In minority areas

?

Gandhi

Higher wrote: »

These billboards aren't on motorways, there in the middle of these areas. And a non partisan group has found that many were disauded from voting as a result of the confusion made by the billboards.

I looked at the location of two of the billboards listed, and they are both at busy intersections. The article mentions "dozens of billboards" but only lists the locations of three.

As MM said, if you are dissuaded from voting by a billboard that says "Voter Fraud is a Crime" then you were probably not going to vote anyway.

I am not saying these are not partisan. Anything in an election is partisan. But this thread is painting a picture of hordes of skinheads and klansmen dragging liberals out of the polling places by the scruffs of their necks, which is absolutely not the case.

Mjollnir

Manic Moran wrote: »

They're last on my ballot sheet here in California as well. Curse those Democrats in charge in the San Francisco area for determining the sequence of parties on the ballot by random lot and putting Obama underneath Rosanne Barr.

NTM

That's odd. I'm in CA as well and my ballot didn't have them at the bottom.

Manic Moran

Mjollnir wrote: »

That's odd. I'm in CA as well and my ballot didn't have them at the bottom.

If you're in Contra Costa County, then we have an interesting issue.

If you're not in Contra Costa County, then I presume that your county's Elections Division's system came out with a different sequence to mine. If you haven't voted in multiple counties in California (I've voted in San Francisco, Santa Clara and now Contra Costa), you will be interested to note that the ballots and machines vary from county to county.

[Edit. OK, or I can look at your info. Says you're in LA. That answers that. Turns out that you're the only county which uses the Inkavote system, so your ballot sheet is printed for your county alone]

NTM

Manic Moran

Actually, that's interesting. I wasn't joking about Roseanne Barr being on the California Ballot (She's running with Cindy Sheehan as the VP candidate), but it appears she's not on the Franklin County ballot in Ohio linked to above. I wonder what the rules are for that sort of thing?

Gandhi

Higher wrote: »

Ah so its just a coincidence that ALL of these signs are:
(1) In battleground states
(2) Paid for by GOP funders
(3) In minority areas

?

Is it a coincidence that the Black Panthers were standing outside a polling place in a gentrifying neighborhood in Philly wielding nightsticks during the 2008 election? And they say they may be back this year, seeing as Eric Holder dropped the case against them last time ( http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/20121105_Will_New_Black_Panthers_be_back_this_year_.html )?

Is it a coincidence that any party will hold voter-registration drives at events and locations that are more likely to have people that will vote for that party?

Is it a coincidence that any party will try to get ballot questions on about some emotional but meaningless issue that will motivate their own supporters to get out and vote? Is it a coincidence that the authors will always phrase ballot questions so that the answer "yes" is the one they want, knowing that most people who do not understand the question will mindlessly tick "yes"?

Are the billboards partisan? Yeah, just like everything else that happens around election time.

Are the billboards voter suppression or fraud? Not even close. They are neither untrue nor confusing.

Mjollnir

Manic Moran wrote: »

Actually, that's interesting. I wasn't joking about Roseanne Barr being on the California Ballot (She's running with Cindy Sheehan as the VP candidate), but it appears she's not on the Franklin County ballot in Ohio linked to above. I wonder what the rules are for that sort of thing?

Isn't that a state-by-state qualification issue?

Hmmmm....

Mjollnir

Gandhi wrote: »

Is it a coincidence that the Black Panthers were standing outside a polling place in a gentrifying neighborhood in Philly wielding nightsticks during the 2008 election? And they say they may be back this year, seeing as Eric Holder dropped the case against them last time ( http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/20121105_Will_New_Black_Panthers_be_back_this_year_.html )?

Yawn. This tired old pablum again?

A. It was the Bush Administration that downgraded it from criminal to civil 11 days before Obama took office.
B. They didn't intimidate anyone from voting.
C. You're welcome.

Gandhi

Mjollnir wrote: »

Yawn. This tired old pablum again?

A. It was the Bush Administration that downgraded it from criminal to civil 11 days before Obama took office.
B. They didn't intimidate anyone from voting.
C. You're welcome.

A. Yes, and then Eric Holder dropped the case. Exactly like I said. Why would a GOP admin pursue a voter intimidation case after they had lost the election? It would just look like sour grapes.
B. No, nobody filed an official complaint that they were intimidated from voting. Witnesses said that they saw people leave without voting after being shouted at by the Black Panthers.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/08/13/commission.shouting/

So members of a known hate group, in uniform, with a nightstick shouting at voters outside a polling place is a "tired old pablum", but the candidates being listed in an order that you don't like on a sample ballot makes you say "There's nothing these clowns won't stoop to"?

nagilum2

Gandhi wrote: »

A. Yes, and then Eric Holder dropped the case. Exactly like I said. Why would a GOP admin pursue a voter intimidation case after they had lost the election? It would just look like sour grapes.
B. No, nobody filed an official complaint that they were intimidated from voting. Witnesses said that they saw people leave without voting after being shouted at by the Black Panthers.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/08/13/commission.shouting/

So members of a known hate group, in uniform, with a nightstick shouting at voters outside a polling place is a "tired old pablum", but the candidates being listed in an order that you don't like on a sample ballot makes you say "There's nothing these clowns won't stoop to"?

Both sides will do everything they can to capture the win, including illegalities they think they can get away with. The stakes are too high and human nature is what it is. Pretending that it's limited to only the side you dislike is ridiculous and obvious homerism.

Besides, as far as I know only the democrats have actually had someone convicted and sent to prison for voter fraud very recently:
http://times247.com/articles/miss-naacp-exec-gets-5-years-for-voter-fraud

Or had a member of his campaign who happens to be his son resign after getting caught providing advice on how to get away with election fraud: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/jim-morans-son-resigns-campaign-amid-video-furor/2012/10/24/95ea4a56-1e23-11e2-b647-bb1668e64058_story.html

Going way back in history, most historians accept that Mayor Daley in Chicago was an election cheat, and there are still questions about whether he delivered Illinois to Kennedy via nefarious means: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-09-26-jfk-chicago-politics_N.htm

So it's not like this stuff isn't without at least *some* historical merit.

Ozymandius2011

Obama camp reporting a GOP scam offering people the chance to vote on their Ipad.

Bradblog.com wrote:

Dirty Tricks: iPad 'Vote at Home' Suppression Scheme Reported in Ohio

An Obama volunteer in Greene County reports some mysterious canvassing activity whereby people are coming by asking if the resident has voted and if not offering them the fraudulent ability to vote in their doorway via an iPad.

The story was relayed to us by Obama campaign volunteer Anita Dobrzelecki, who says she was calling committed Obama supporters to confirm they had voted. She reached a woman who said she had not, but that she “wanted to vote like my fiancée voted.”

When asked, the young woman said that a man came to her fiancée’s door and asked if he had voted. When he answered no, he was asked who he wanted to vote for. He answered Obama. The man at the door says “Great! You can do that right now” and presented an iPad with what looked like an electronic ballot. He made a selection and was told his vote was counted and he did not need to submit an absentee ballot or go to the polls.

We had heard a rumor of this kind of activity also happening in the Youngstown area, but there were very little details on that story and we’ve been unable to find anyone to talk to about it. The Youngstown story wasn’t fully consistent with this Greene County report as it included the marking of a paper type ballot and also included an “I Voted” sticker.

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Add this one to the list please: http://www.salon.com/2012/11/05/ohio_republicans_sneak_risky_software_onto_voting_machines/

Mjollnir

Gandhi wrote: »

A. Yes, and then Eric Holder dropped the case. Exactly like I said. Why would a GOP admin pursue a voter intimidation case after they had lost the election? It would just look like sour grapes.

Because it was groundless and obviously w/out merit. Hence the downgrade before Obama even came in.

B. No, nobody filed an official complaint that they were intimidated from voting. Witnesses said that they saw people leave without voting after being shouted at by the Black Panthers.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/08/13/commission.shouting/

So members of a known hate group, in uniform, with a nightstick shouting at voters outside a polling place is a "tired old pablum", but the candidates being listed in an order that you don't like on a sample ballot makes you say "There's nothing these clowns won't stoop to"?

Again, since this seems difficult for you: there is zero evidence, nada, that anyone was intimidated into not voting. Shouting amounts to nothing.

And what cons in OH have been stooping to has been a myriad of various little things (and some not so little) adding up to a very obvious and concerted effort to suppress democratic votes.

southsiderosie

Gandhi wrote: »

Is it a coincidence that the Black Panthers were standing outside a polling place in a gentrifying neighborhood in Philly wielding nightsticks during the 2008 election? And they say they may be back this year, seeing as Eric Holder dropped the case against them last time ( http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/20121105_Will_New_Black_Panthers_be_back_this_year_.html )?

Is it a coincidence that any party will hold voter-registration drives at events and locations that are more likely to have people that will vote for that party?

Is it a coincidence that any party will try to get ballot questions on about some emotional but meaningless issue that will motivate their own supporters to get out and vote? Is it a coincidence that the authors will always phrase ballot questions so that the answer "yes" is the one they want, knowing that most people who do not understand the question will mindlessly tick "yes"?

Are the billboards partisan? Yeah, just like everything else that happens around election time.

Are the billboards voter suppression or fraud? Not even close. They are neither untrue nor confusing.

The fact that individual groups are trying to suppress key voting consistencies is not a surprise. The bigger problem here is that government officials in Ohio and Florida are using the power of the state to deliberately try to suppress voting in minority communities.

Mjollnir

nagilum2 wrote: »

Both sides will do everything they can to capture the win, including illegalities they think they can get away with. The stakes are too high and human nature is what it is. Pretending that it's limited to only the side you dislike is ridiculous and obvious homerism.

Besides, as far as I know only the democrats have actually had someone convicted and sent to prison for voter fraud very recently:
http://times247.com/articles/miss-naacp-exec-gets-5-years-for-voter-fraud

Or had a member of his campaign who happens to be his son resign after getting caught providing advice on how to get away with election fraud: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/jim-morans-son-resigns-campaign-amid-video-furor/2012/10/24/95ea4a56-1e23-11e2-b647-bb1668e64058_story.html

Going way back in history, most historians accept that Mayor Daley in Chicago was an election cheat, and there are still questions about whether he delivered Illinois to Kennedy via nefarious means: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-09-26-jfk-chicago-politics_N.htm

So it's not like this stuff isn't without at least *some* historical merit.

The republicans are rife with it.

Dig in: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=9467

A Republican insider now admits that their concerns about voter fraud are nonsense:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/11/steve_schmidt_voter_fraud_mythology.php?ref=fpnewsfeed

And some more BS from a "True the Vote" whackjob

http://crooksandliars.com/mugsy/true-vote-virtually-nonexistent-voter-fraud-

Manic Moran

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Obama camp reporting a GOP scam offering people the chance to vote on their Ipad.

That sort of crap needs to be punished by ridiculously long prison sentences, on the order of those given out for treason.

That said, anyone daft enough to fall for it....

NTM

nagilum2

Mjollnir wrote: »

The republicans are rife with it.

Dig in: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=9467

A Republican insider now admits that their concerns about voter fraud are nonsense:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/11/steve_schmidt_voter_fraud_mythology.php?ref=fpnewsfeed

And some more BS from a "True the Vote" whackjob

http://crooksandliars.com/mugsy/true-vote-virtually-nonexistent-voter-fraud-

I have no doubt. What I said was, both sides are rotten and both sides engage in nefarious activity. Reading these boards, though, sometimes you'd think the republicans and democrats are house harkonnen and house atreides, respectively.

southsiderosie

nagilum2 wrote: »

I have no doubt. What I said was, both sides are rotten and both sides engage in nefarious activity. Reading these boards, though, sometimes you'd think the republicans and democrats are house harkonnen and house atreides, respectively.

False equivalence. Please point out in this election cycle where Dem officials are seeking to systematically use their power as elected officials to change state voting procedures in order to suppress Republican turnout.

nagilum2

southsiderosie wrote: »

False equivalence. Please point out in this election cycle where Dem officials are seeking to systematically use their power as elected officials to change state voting procedures in order to suppress Republican turnout.

The title of the thread is voter suppression and fraud, not just voter suppression.
I have shown fraud examples.

Further, I think that it's simply not logical to believe that only one side is engaged in these types of activities to tilt the playing field to their side.

southsiderosie

nagilum2 wrote: »

The title of the thread is voter suppression and fraud, not just voter suppression.
I have shown fraud examples.

Yes I know - and I responded by saying that I think abusing your position as an elected official and using the power of the state to suppress voting is a more serious problem than random acts of fraud by partisan zealots.

nagilum2 wrote: »

Further, I think that it's simply not logical to believe that only one side is engaged in these types of activities to tilt the playing field to their side.

So show us some evidence that Democrat election officials are seeking to systematically reduce turnout in Republican areas.

Manic Moran

southsiderosie wrote: »

So show us some evidence that Democrat election officials are seeking to systematically reduce turnout in Republican areas.

Aren't they usually polite enough in States like Virginia and Florida to wait until the polls close, and then descend upon the absentee ballots which tend to be conservative due to the large military contingent?

The DoD, under Panetta's watch, hasn't been particularly emphatic about conducting its obligations under the MOVE act, either. A review about six weeks ago indicated that half of the voter assistance offices which were supposed to be open in fact were not reachable. In 2010, at least, the only States which received date waivers for absentee votes were ones that voted heavily Democrat in 2008 (all Republican States were denied). In fairness to them, though, this year it seems that only one State even requested a waiver (New York), and that was denied.

Of course, I am not actually that paranoid, and I don't think the Democratic administration are 'out to suppress' the military vote, and I'm not one for childish 'he did it, she did it too' banter. Not least, I've not gone looking for any such evidence. Be it by 'suppressing' votes of the opposition, or 'increasing' one's own vote by whatever means necessary, I'm quite confident that both sides will do consciously whatever they think they can legally get away with, an accidently occasionally do something that they didn't intend to which causes a problem as well, because they're just human.

NTM

joseph brand

Rachel Maddow reports on voter suppression. GOP insists elections aren't won by majority voting.

I thought it was every citizens duty to be informed and to use their right to vote.

Duck Soup

nagilum2 wrote: »

The title of the thread is voter suppression and fraud, not just voter suppression.
I have shown fraud examples.

Further, I think that it's simply not logical to believe that only one side is engaged in these types of activities to tilt the playing field to their side.

It's absolutely logical to suppose that one side is involved in systematic - and in some cases, official - voter suppression efforts and not the other.

The reason is simple. The greater the turnout, the more it benefits Democrats; the lower the turnout, the more it benefits Republicans.

The Republican vote is more solid, the Democrat vote softer. Democrat voters are more likely to be dissuaded or sidetracked from voting.

So the Democrats, knowing this, pour their energies into the Get Out The Vote ground game. The Republicans, knowing this, look to curtail early voting, increase ID requirements, increase the length of queues on election day(s) etc., etc., etc.

It's nothing if not logical.

nagilum2

Duck Soup wrote: »

It's absolutely logical to suppose that one side is involved in systematic - and in some cases, official - voter suppression efforts and not the other.

The reason is simple. The greater the turnout, the more it benefits Democrats; the lower the turnout, the more it benefits Republicans.

The Republican vote is more solid, the Democrat vote softer. Democrat voters are more likely to be dissuaded or sidetracked from voting.

So the Democrats, knowing this, pour their energies into the Get Out The Vote ground game. The Republicans, knowing this, look to curtail early voting, increase ID requirements, increase the length of queues on election day(s) etc., etc., etc.

It's nothing if not logical.

So then you admit it makes sense that the Republicans attempt to cheat by trying to restrict votes and the Democrats try to cheat by artificially inflating the vote.

And Rosie, I do see these things as absolutely mathematically equivalent. Adding a vote on one side has the same effect as subtracting it from another.

Mjollnir

nagilum2 wrote: »

So then you admit it makes sense that the Republicans attempt to cheat by trying to restrict votes and the Democrats try to cheat by artificially inflating the vote.

And Rosie, I do see these things as absolutely mathematically equivalent. Adding a vote on one side has the same effect as subtracting it from another.

Where is there data that indicates Democrats have systemically tried to cheat by 'artificially inflating the vote'?

Higher

Higher wrote: »

Come on Manic Moran, these signs are only in poor, black areas where the illiteracy rate is through the roof. They are clearly an attempt to prevent poor, black Americans from voting. They are utterly absent in white areas and rich areas.

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Obama camp reporting a GOP scam offering people the chance to vote on their Ipad.

So it's poor, illiterate, iPad-owning minorities the GOP are targetting?

southsiderosie

nagilum2 wrote: »

So then you admit it makes sense that the Republicans attempt to cheat by trying to restrict votes and the Democrats try to cheat by artificially inflating the vote.

And Rosie, I do see these things as absolutely mathematically equivalent. Adding a vote on one side has the same effect as subtracting it from another.

I think you are missing my point. My concern is not the math, my concern is that it is a bigger problem when people use the power of the state to engage in voter suppression than when they act the maggot. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Amerika

Gotta love Philadelphia

Thanks to DOJ Holder throwing out charges from the 2008 incident, the Black Panthers are back at the polling stations. Intimidation remains, but luckily they left their military batons at home this time around.
http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2012/11/06/Report-Obama-Attempts-to-Steal-Philly-Black-Panthers-In-Repub-Poll-Workers-out

And Court-appointed Republican poll inspectors are being forcibly removed from voting stations in some Philadelphia wards… and replaced by Democratic inspectors thanks to leftist voting chief judges.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/philly-gop-poll-inspectors-being-ousted-for-dems/article/2512714#.UJkm9sXA-4d

Luckily there remains at least one sane judge there.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/11/06/judge-issuing-order-to-reinstate-booted-philadelphia-election-officials/

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And here it is... proof of voter machine fraud.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

rofl

if you think the republicans are going to commit fraud on that scale at least give them the credit to think they'll know to do it in the background rather than having a big green tick show up beside romneys name

Joseph

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdpGd74DrBM&feature=youtu.be

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/12q6wu/2012_voting_machine_altering_votes/