Waterford Airport.

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155547#Comment_121155547

Yes same for cork, it suffers a lot from fog, the difference is it's a DAA airport they can pump in better landing infrastructure as opposed to a regional airport

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155707#Comment_121155707

Fuel savings would be inconsequential in the overall scheme of things.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121156229#Comment_121156229

Not to those who pay the bills.

Regards...jmcc

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121156908#Comment_121156908

Fuel savings between flying to Waterford or to Dublin/Cork would be small enough to be inconsequential when compared to the load factors and yield that could be achieved.

DUB-CDG is 425NM

WAT-CDG is 414NM

For an A320 that's maybe 50kg of fuel additional - which costs approximately $69 at current prices.

That's less than 1 PAX in the difference; so fuel is going to be completely immaterial in that case.

Even for Italy, it's only 15NM difference to Rome, for example.

For London - Dublin is actually closer

DUB-LHR is 243NM

WAT-LHR is 250NM

In fact, for all the European hub airports, with the exception of Lisbon & Madrid for South American connections, DUB is either shorter than WAT or the same distance.

The only destinations that WAT is meaningfully closer than DUB is for Spain or Portugal - but then ORK is closer to all of them. But the difference between WAT and ORK in terms of flying distance from those destinations is so small as to be less than 1 PAX in all cases also.

Valhalla90

The issue here let’s be honest is political will. It’s a runway extension with some added infrastructure. It’s not a new terminal like something you see in Heathrow. Politics is making sure Dublin & Cork interests are kept in their favor. The money is there and people of the South East pay the same tax as the other regions. This argument that we have too many airports is laughable. If so they are all located mostly on the western part of the country that’s not balanced. A strong South East doesn’t sit well with Dublin & Cork.

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158940#Comment_121158940

Mainly just widen, lengthen the runway and widen the taxi ways that's about it.

New lighting was installed a number of years back and the wiring was placed to the width of a new wider runway, so the lights just need to be picked up and moved.

Had this was progressed a number of years ago it would be half the cost of what it would be now.

It's purely political will stopping this and no more.

Granted the airport isn't doing itself any favours by not having a commerical airline present as it provides politicians with the perfect excuse to not provide funding.

The argument of airline fuel saving is null and avoid as there isn't a huge difference fuel wise is flying from waterford or any other airport.

The argument of how accessible the airport is and how it would only be used to a small catchment area is also null and void.

If you were to provide Waterford with the relevant infrastructure and they managed to attach a low cost airline, Waterford would work but no non Waterford sitting TD is going to back it.

The airport sums up the south east working together. We have had big Phil (Kilkenny), Brendan howlin (Wexford) and nothing, yet both extremely vocal on SETU as they wanted to deliver a campus on their own doorstep, the south east only works together when services can be pulled from elsewhere.

Where is the outcry and support for the airport of the past decade or so? Only locally that's where.

L1011

Comers ordered to demolish one of their flagship UK developments

https://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2023/09/26/woolwich-tower-development-ordered-to-be-demolished/

They hold on to land for prolonged periods (see the Sentinel building in Dublin) and don't deliver what they promise (as above) so don't put any hope whatsoever in to them getting the runway extended

Deise Vu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158287#Comment_121158287

Nobody anywhere in their right mind is suggesting that Waterford would ever have anything remotely like the connections Cork has let alone Dublin.

However, as you have pointed out vaguely in between your actual mileage to Paris and London , Waterford is significantly closer to Spain and Portugal, two huge destinations in terms of flight numbers. There would be 300 KMs less flying time on a return trip from Waterford.

Together with the flying time fuel savings, there would also be near zero taxiing and definitely no holding patterns waiting for landing or taking off slots. If you think the likes of Ryanair would dismiss such savings, there is little point in debating with you.

As has been pointed out time and again, getting to Waterford for anyone south of Naas would be very similar or quicker time wise. Add in the better airport experience and I cannot understand how anyone could think there will be issues with load factor.

I travelled with the wife to a family wedding in Barcelona very recently. I reckon I spent at least €100 extra to fly Cork-Reus just to avoid using Dublin. The market is definitely there and every Summer we get more than enough evidence that Dublin cannot cope with peak travel.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172033#Comment_121172033

Whilst closer to Spain/Portugal than Dublin, it's actually slight further than Cork for most of the popular Spanish destinations and all of the Portuguese airports.

The only Spanish airports closer to Waterford are Barcelona at 32NM and the Balearics at all less than 20NM.

I work in Finance, currently in the travel industry and I've previously worked in the transport fuels industry. I've a fairly good insight into exactly what metrics are being looked at by the likes of Ryanair and exactly what constitutes a material saving on such metrics.

The business case for WAT, with a proper runway, is for a feeder service into a hub airport and possibly some bucket-and-spade summer traffic from charter airlines working with package holiday operators and similar for winter ski travel.

invara

There have been multiple cost-benefit analyses done on the case over the years, and all of them point to the same thing— the investment would yield a significant upside to the region. The airport, with the appropriate runway, could be expected to do numbers better than Kerry and Knock, but even at Kerry's numbers it would yield a large upside and make a very strong case for public investment. The trouble is this upside is external to the airport— felt by businesses (particularly FDI) and people rather than captured in the airport business model.

Our current politics favour Dublin and Cork, this is a strategic issue for them (they really do not care about the chump change the runway costs) and so will not get across the line while they hold sway. Of course, they will not say this, but on the critical days in which they have to act, and given this issue has kicked around for 15+ years, they act to kill it off with more studies, queries, or deep pondering. They never say no directly, but it can be imputed by their actions.

Valhalla90

Shocking failure that we are still discussing an extension of tarmac basically. Painful

Masala

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173291#Comment_121173291

Any link to those analysis.......

The airport, with the appropriate runway, could be expected to do numbers better than Kerry and Knock..

Thats a BIG claim...... would be interested to see who put that out into the universe!

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174892#Comment_121174892

Would also like to see the reports, all we can do is roughly gauge this off past and current figures.

At Waterford's busiest it handled 113k passengers in a single year. This was operation mainly ATR72 (72 seats) turbo prop aircraft and a BAE146 (approx 100 seats) aircraft.

Destinations were, Luton, Manchester, Birmingham, Lorient, Bordeaux, Faro and Malaga (note the destinations outside the UK were only for 2 months)

Kerry's busiest year they handled 369k passengers, generally Ryanair Boeing aircraft with 189 seats, over double the capacity of Waterfords ATR aircraft.

I think it is reasonable that Waterford could obtain 200 - 300k passenger services with an airline such as Ryanair doing UK routes, one or two mainland EU and the summer destinations.

I don't think we could get near knock as they hit 700-800k passengers.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175572#Comment_121175572

ryanair aint coming back anytime soon, waterford just isnt viable at the moment unfortunately....

road_high

Have any of the smaller operators expressed an interest in re starting what was there before? It’s a great pity that was let slide as it really undermines any argument for extending the existing runway. There seemed to be a good management and marketing team which I’m sure has long dispersed

road_high

Knock airport was lucky in a way with Timing-it was of an era when you might get away with mad plans. Air travel was being deregulated and there’s a massive diaspora in the west of Ireland that the south east simply doesn’t have due to a different history

invara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174892#Comment_121174892

They are not in public circulation, and not mine to publish (but I have seen them)- the 2018 Ernst & Young report (ordered up by Shane Ross as Minister for Transport) and the 2019 PWC report (ordered by the airport) both have the same data points and optimistic conclusions.

#1. Population hinterland (with isochrones of 1, 1.5, and 2 hr isochrones) shows Wat has a higher density than Kerry and Knock, similar to Cork. It is likely that Census 2022, the N25/M11 investment will show a further increase for the WAT hinterland, even when moderating effects of rising route times on the M9 and westward N25 and N20 routes.

#2. Airport multiplier and I/O models for regional airports are reasonably standard. You can split that into GDP and FDI impacts, both of which have a two-way relationship (for routes create GDP and FDI; FDI/GDP rises create new routes). The round multiplier used for investment in existing airports is x2.5, and x4 for new airports— these models are very conservative in capturing the catalytic impacts (facilitating trade, tourism, investment, and productivity growth). There are some studies on FDI impacts that have indicated an airport adds around 12k high-tech and quality service jobs to a region. The SE region was a well-recognised deficit in IDA-supported jobs (~60% pro-rata with comparable Irish regions), and indeed has 60% of the pro-rata GDP of other regions— the airport is seen as a vital connection to reduce these gaps.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175976#Comment_121175976

There really are no smaller operators anymore.

Consolidation, three systemic shocks to aviation in 20 years (9/11, financial crisis, COVID), lack of staff (small planes still use two pilots), increased fuel costs and also increasing age of the common airframes - Fokker 50s, Saab 340 and Jetstream 41s are all 25+ years out of production - have killed off the micro airlines that often came in to regional airports.

Eastern are a specialist airline with very high fares to reflect that and Loganair are Scotland-focused and unlikely to be much use for the core routes Waterford could support at reasonably high fares - Luton or Stansted, Birmingham, Manchester. That French crowd that are doing routes to Kerry are doing it for French tourists heading to Ireland, not v/v. Waterfords tourist attractions (greenways etc) are not quite as well known as the Ring of Kerry yet!

road_high

True, I was on an Aer Lingus regional a few months back to Leeds and it was fairly old, worn and tatty. Must be pushing 30 years old

coupons1987

The oldest plane in the regional fleet is 10years , they have a young green fleet. When people see propellers they assume it’s old.

dan575283578

I heard that the business case for the airport is to be presented to the government soon, if all goes to plan does this mean that work on the runway will begin relatively soon?? Or am I mistaken?

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121292483#Comment_121292483

Eamonn Ryan didn't sound like this was something he wanted to support.

Valhalla90

He needs to be gone as minister for Transport before anything positive can happen in my opinion. As for his TD here in Waterford enough said!

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293179#Comment_121293179

The greens think we should be using 24 hour ferries to Europe that cost €1000 for a family of 3 for all our travel needs.

We live on an island. We need airports.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293686#Comment_121293686

..yea the greens are really struggling with reality, i admire them for their overall beliefs, but many of their ideas just arent workable in our current reality, you cant keep squeezing people, they ll get hammered next year....

FGR

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121292483#Comment_121292483

I fear that no matter what the report says, negative or positive, it will go on top of the previous reports until the next minister commissions another report for the exact same thing.

It's beyond frustrating. This, and the apparent lack of any movement as regards the Comer brothers. I've heard they've been known to sit on their investments as opposed to developing them - will WAT end up being the same?

Cosmo Kramer

Probably just land banking from the Comers. Think they have a bit of a history with that kind of thing. Still don't understand why Aer Lingus Regional aren't already operating from there if this facility really is so badly needed as is suggested on here. They don't need an extended runway to operate their fleet after all, they could just crack on.

Is it seven years now since there's been a scheduled service from an airport that already has the necessary tools to cater for turboprops? Tells it's own story I think.

Valhalla90

When Aer Arann was there it was successful there’s no dispute in that. But I agree everything should be done in the short term at least to get Aer Lingus regional in there.

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121297622#Comment_121297622

Interesting that Ireland's second busiest airport is also privately owned by billionaires.

People will assume that commercial flights are needed to make the business viable, but maybe that's not the case.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121299593#Comment_121299593

Ireland's second busiest airport is Cork, which is owned by the DAA and hence the state.

Aer Lingus Regional have more financially viable options to use their aircraft on; as has been the case since the first Regional (Aer Arran) got the contract and could transfer passengers via Dublin on to transatlantic.