Buses and Cycling (Split from "Dublin bus driver here, ask questions")

Victor

Thread split from: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056779290

Moderator

Jawgap

bobby23 wrote: »

Have nothing against cyclists, 80%+ are fine no problems.
Dont mind sharing the bus lane with cyclists at all, when they stay close to the kerb.
But the problems begin with the idiots who think they are pro cyclist and are going so fast, so they cycle in the middle of the bus lane holding up the bus, only going 30-40 kpm.
It happens every day , morning or evening rush hour.
Another thing that is a pain is not using the bike lane. Yet again the Lance Armstrong wanna bees believe they are so fast they are not causing a delay by cycling in the middle of the road.

Couple of points....

First, 'close to the kerb' is exactly the wrong place you want to be on a bike, even if it does mean delaying traffic - nowhere is it written that the convenience of one road user takes priority over the safety of another.

Even the RSA state "Ride well clear of the kerb. It will help drivers to see you and will prevent your pedal hitting the kerb. You also have more room to move if you come across obstacles or if vehicles pass too close to you."

the other point is that the gutter is uneven, the camber is usually adverse and it's full of glass, stones and assorted crap. That's before you have to deal with drain covers and manhole covers.

Cycle lanes are generally - with some exceptions - rubbish bordering on dangerous. Most of the people who think otherwise rarely cycle in or on them. One particular hazard at this time of year is the slippy leaf mulch that builds up and is never removed - again safety is the main reason they are not used.

The one along the N11 / Stillorgan dual carriageway is not great- the surface is breaking up, you've no time to react when someone comes out of their driveway and there's too many yields - a line of paint and slap of colouredy tarmac is only a cycle lane in Ireland.

You're about 10 / 15 years too late with the Lance comparison - cycling has moved on a lot since then. I'm more of a Mark Renshaw (or at least I like to think I am).

Most "Lance Armstrong" type cyclists also use reasonably advanced cycling computers that are very accurate as regards speed and any half-decent cyclist is well capable of maintaining the 30 - 40 km/hr speed you seem to think should be a minimum - anyway large chunks of the city centre are 30 km/hr which is well within the range of most cyclists.

bobby23 wrote: »

Most likely bike lane not being used.
Guaranteed you are not traveling as fast as you would like to think you are

Bus stopped at traffic lights , tight to kerb.
Cyclist mount pavement to get in front of bus.
light turn green , bus stuck behing lance armstong wanna be, crawling out the road.

A door opens on a building and 20 people want to get out and you want to get in, would you push in pass them or let them out before you went in?
Bus 50+ passengers going home v 1 cyclist.

Again why should even 50 passengers' convenience require someone to put themselves in danger so a bus can get to a stop a few seconds earlier?

bobby23 wrote: »

Would have to be Rain man to check change in slot.
Fare evasion is rampant, what i think dont mean a thing.
Do cyclist have to pass any type of test to get on the road?
i am in the best of health, not a worry in the world, how many people can say that?

I'm in the best of health, I save a small fortune by cycling and having read your responses - honest and all as they are - nothing has changed my long held opinion that DB staff think the travelling public are an inconvenience put on this earth solely for their benefit - a bit of privatisation would go a long way.

AlekSmart

GRMA wrote: »

Why do some of your drivers let smelly fcukers like the small grey haired guy with the funny walk onto busses? (you probably know of that guy, been known to take a sh!t on the bus)

Oh don,t I know this Gentleman well Indeed :eek: !!!

He is to be found usually along the Ballymun/Santry-City Centre corridor and his walking style appears dictated by the weight of whatever is in his trousers.

Now before you call out the Busdriver on this issue,bear in mind that the individual in question has long history of being refused travel by Busdrivers who spot him before he boards.

He is however most adept at slipping unnoticed past the crowd and suddenly popping up with his fare (YES...He pays a cash-fare !!)

If I see him at the Stop,I will make sure I place the bus in such a position which allows me to embark most of the other passengers first.

However,it's also worth remembering that the gent may have washed and changed his garb since the last time and thus may not be a problem at all on that specific journey.

I am also aware of Drivers who have been reported,by passengers sitting upstairs, for refusing the fellow admission.
The pasenger concerned,as is very common,had only a partial view of the incident and,again,as is usual,already had a preconcieved notion of the Busdrivers attitude.

(I should clarify that the issue with this particular Gentleman is a most rancid and nauseous stench of fecal matter and much else,which cannot be appreciated through the Internet)

All the complainant saw was an elderly gentleman being refused travel,and reacting appropriately,however the Lady concerned never bothered to investigate or approach the Driver OR the other passengers downstairs to seek any explanation.

Luckily,when the CCTV footage was played it clearly showed the other passengers downwind of this gent,blanching and making faces which required no translation as to what the problem was...:o

Busdriving requires a wealth of associated skills and adaptations to carry the task out with any success,but by far the most necessary is patience,lots of it......:)

The cycle/bus issue is also one of the areas of contention which,like the poor,appears destined to be with us always.

I can only go on my own experience,which has taught me that a Public Service vehicle up to 12mtrs Long,2.55 Mtrs wide and weighing up to 18 tonnes,which,by definition has to do all of it's business with the kerbside,will always conflict with a Cyclist whom the authorities feel is safe enough being placed between the two.

The needs of the Cyclist and the Bus Passenger,IMO,are diametrically opposed and cannot be safely combined under our long standing Road Traffic methodology.

It is my belief that on public (Not road) safety grounds alone there should never be an incidence of a Cyclist being directed through a "Live" Bus Stop.

Part of basic Cycle Path/Lane and BusStop design should be a primary requirement to seperate the two for a substantial distance on the approach and departure from the Stop.

It would be a worthwhile practice,I feel,if Bus Companies were to hold open-days where interested groups,such as cyclists,could be sat into the cab of a vehicle such as a Tri-Axle VT and allowed to get a perception of the Busdrivers view.

It is also worth pointing out that Bus Atha Cliath staff have been amongst the most enthusiastic participants in the Cycle to Work assisted-purchase scheme,with most Garages now having to find extra parking space for bicycles.

As a footnote on the other gripe of Duty Handovers,having witnessed the handovers on the Cannes city bus network,( http://www.busazur.com/) where the (Veolia) drivers concerned shook-hands,had a little chat and a smoke before bidding each other adieu,whilst their passengers muttered,rolled their eyes and shrugged their shoulders massively.....the only difference being the mid autumn temperatures of 21 Deg C and the sunshine to go with it......Grrrr.

Jawgap

AlekSmart wrote: »

..........The cycle/bus issue is also one of the areas of contention which,like the poor,appears destined to be with us always.

I can only go on my own experience,which has taught me that a Public Service vehicle up to 12mtrs Long,2.55 Mtrs wide and weighing up to 18 tonnes,which,by definition has to do all of it's business with the kerbside,will always conflict with a Cyclist whom the authorities feel is safe enough being placed between the two.

The needs of the Cyclist and the Bus Passenger,IMO,are diametrically opposed and cannot be safely combined under our long standing Road Traffic methodology.

It is my belief that on public (Not road) safety grounds alone there should never be an incidence of a Cyclist being directed through a "Live" Bus Stop.

Part of basic Cycle Path/Lane and BusStop design should be a primary requirement to seperate the two for a substantial distance on the approach and departure from the Stop.

It would be a worthwhile practice,I feel,if Bus Companies were to hold open-days where interested groups,such as cyclists,could be sat into the cab of a vehicle such as a Tri-Axle VT and allowed to get a perception of the Busdrivers view.

It is also worth pointing out that Bus Atha Cliath staff have been amongst the most enthusiastic participants in the Cycle to Work assisted-purchase scheme,with most Garages now having to find extra parking space for bicycles.

........

A well written post, but I would dispute your assertion that "the needs of the Cyclist and the Bus Passenger,IMO,are diametrically opposed and cannot be safely combined under our long standing Road Traffic methodology."

I'd say a bit of courtesy, common sense and patience by all road users would go a long way. Indeed, I think that's the only option (combined with energetic enforcement of the road traffic legislation) - we have limited roads in Dublin so the chance of getting anything extra by way of space for cyclists is extremely limited.

If cyclists don't go in the bus lanes, where would they go - on the path or to the right of the lane and potentially find themselves between moving vehicles on both sides?

I also think that it's worth pointing out that a PSV which as you say is large, heavy and by definition will generally come off better in any collision with most other road users shouldn't be in a position where it is 'pinning' a cyclist to the kerb - the driver owes a duty of care to other road users as well as to his passengers and the fact, however unattractive this may be, is that cyclists are allowed to use bus lanes with equal priority to other users - until that is changed bus, taxi and other PSV drivers will just have to accept it and moderate their driving accordingly.

buffalo

Jawgap wrote: »

I'd say a bit of courtesy, common sense and patience by all road users would go a long way. Indeed, I think that's the only option (combined with energetic enforcement of the road traffic legislation) - we have limited roads in Dublin so the chance of getting anything extra by way of space for cyclists is extremely limited.

+1 But when I see stuff like the below, my mind boggles.

bobby23 wrote: »

Another thing that is a pain is not using the bike lane. Yet again the Lance Armstrong wanna bees believe they are so fast they are not causing a delay by cycling in the middle of the road.

bobby23 wrote: »

the bike lanes in dublin are a joke, rob peter to pay paul, only a line painted on a narrow road.

Here is a person who cycles, and can see the cycle lanes are not much use. Yet once behind the wheel of a large vehicle, suddenly becomes insistent that other cyclists use said lanes. Why can't we all just get along?

AlekSmart

Jawgap wrote: »

A well written post, but I would dispute your assertion that "the needs of the Cyclist and the Bus Passenger,IMO,are diametrically opposed and cannot be safely combined under our long standing Road Traffic methodology."

I'd say a bit of courtesy, common sense and patience by all road users would go a long way. Indeed, I think that's the only option (combined with energetic enforcement of the road traffic legislation) - we have limited roads in Dublin so the chance of getting anything extra by way of space for cyclists (or Buses) is extremely limited.

If cyclists don't go in the bus lanes, where would they go - on the path or to the right of the lane and potentially find themselves between moving vehicles on both sides?

I also think that it's worth pointing out that a PSV which as you say is large, heavy and by definition will generally come off better in any collision with most other road users shouldn't be in a position where it is 'pinning' a cyclist to the kerb - the driver owes a duty of care to other road users as well as to his passengers and the fact, however unattractive this may be, is that cyclists are allowed to use bus lanes with equal priority to other users - until that is changed bus, taxi and other PSV drivers will just have to accept it and moderate their driving accordingly.

All quite sensible and desirable stuff Jawgap.

However I cannot see any meaningful or sustainable way to allow cycles and a succession of buses to enter into a daily battle along such places as Leeson St (Southbound).

Yes,I'm aware that Leeson St southbound does NOT have a cycle lane of any form,in common with St Stephens Green South,BUT try explaining the intricacies of the Road Traffic Act to the multitude of very fragile and vulnerable cyclists who will invariably find themselves in between a Bus and the Kerb due to the fact that a BUS requires far more space in the lead-in and departure to and from the Bus-Stops.

I also note that Jawgap is quite specific in singling out Bus,Taxi and other PSV drivers in relation to exchanges with cyclists,yet oddly enough the most recent high-profile cyclist fatalities have been from HGV's,particularly Articulated vehicles.

I would consider myself a reasonable and moderate Busdriver,yet raely does a shift go by without my having to cope,often compromisingly with lunatic behaviour by bicycle borne individuals,often with huge risks attaching,which now will be exascerbated by the arrival of Wintertime.

I guess my essential point is that,to accept the notion of moderation,one has to see evidence of it in the cycling fraternity also.

The merest glancing brush from an 18 tonne tri-axle bus moving at less than 10KPH will be more than sufficent to seriously injure or kill an exposed cyclist.

The sheer simplicity of the physics involved should be one reason for those in positions of power to refrain from attempting to mix cycling and busdriving in stage-carriage situations.

Qualitymark

liger wrote: »

The problem is, If you want a change of bus you could wait an hour till someone can do that and then a bus is off the road.

Why?

Is this another example of the typical short-termism of Ireland, that there are not spare buses available?

Every housewife knows to have spare sets of clothes for the family in case of accidents, extra food in the cupboard in case of visitors, etc. Why aren't there spare buses ready to roll immediately?

(From my own observation, I think one of the big problems of Dublin Bus is the fact that it's run from several different garages rather than centrally - this lack of spares is typical, but it also causes problems, for instance, in covering one area that has buses from several different garages transiting; in theory the area should be well covered, but in practice each garage thinks the other garages' buses are covering a hole in the schedule.)

In relation to cyclists and buses, by the way, I'm a cyclist, a passenger and a driver, and don't see any difficulty with mutual courtesy and care for safety on the road. On the turn from St Stephen's Green to Leeson Street yesterday, for instance, I was on my bike waiting for the lights to change when a bus came up behind me wanting to turn left. He gave a tiny 'bip' on the horn and I hopped off and pulled up the bike against the pavement so he could safely turn. (Then the lights changed to a pedestrian green and I walked the bike across, remounted and rode off.)

Jawgap

AlekSmart wrote: »

All quite sensible and desirable stuff Jawgap.

However I cannot see any meaningful or sustainable way to allow cycles and a succession of buses to enter into a daily battle along such places as Leeson St (Southbound).

Yes,I'm aware that Leeson St southbound does NOT have a cycle lane of any form,in common with St Stephens Green South,BUT try explaining the intricacies of the Road Traffic Act to the multitude of very fragile and vulnerable cyclists who will invariably find themselves in between a Bus and the Kerb due to the fact that a BUS requires far more space in the lead-in and departure to and from the Bus-Stops. .

Cyclists shouldn't be on contra-flow bus lanes and the easiest and quickest way to sort that out is to stick a couple of Garda there the odd morning with a van in Leeson Lane to cart away the confiscated bikes for those who can't provide identification so they can be summonsed.

And while we're on the point (and before someone else brings it up) fixed penalty notices for cycling offences would go a long way to curbing some of the more reckless idiots you see on bikes.

Combined with a decent level of enforcement of road traffic legislation and you'd see a significant change in driver, pedestrian and cyclist behaviour in a short space of time.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I also note that Jawgap is quite specific in singling out Bus,Taxi and other PSV drivers in relation to exchanges with cyclists,yet oddly enough the most recent high-profile cyclist fatalities have been from HGV's,particularly Articulated vehicles. .

Only because this was a discussion on buses that migrated towards PSVs. HGVs and fatalities from them are, to a degree avoidable - nearly all fatalities have been from right turning HGVs or situations where cyclists have placed themselves in the HGV's blind spot - the solution is simple -stay away from HGVs, never go up the inside of a HGV and if you find yourself stopped at a junction and a HGV pulls up behind you, roll forward to make sure you stay visible to the driver.

The issue in this thread relates to buses (and by extension PSVs) sharing bus lanes with cyclists, and the point of contention seems to be cyclists 'delaying' buses in particular.

The Rules of the Road are fairly clear, the duty of care is on the vehicle carrying out the over-taking manouevre, and there is nothing in the Rules of the Road or any traffic legislation that says buses have priority over any other road user legitimately using a bus lane.

Drivers, passengers etc may not like that, but until the law is changed they'll just have to suffer it.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would consider myself a reasonable and moderate Busdriver,yet raely does a shift go by without my having to cope,often compromisingly with lunatic behaviour by bicycle borne individuals,often with huge risks attaching,which now will be exascerbated by the arrival of Wintertime.

I guess my essential point is that,to accept the notion of moderation,one has to see evidence of it in the cycling fraternity also.

The merest glancing brush from an 18 tonne tri-axle bus moving at less than 10KPH will be more than sufficent to seriously injure or kill an exposed cyclist.

The sheer simplicity of the physics involved should be one reason for those in positions of power to refrain from attempting to mix cycling and busdriving in stage-carriage situations.

Which brings me back to my original point, that the city is the way the city is and with its medieval street pattern and general lack of road space there is no provision for adding dedicated cycling infrastructure.

You're right that the physics of colliding with a bus are often grave for the road user who is hit by the bus, which if anything is a compelling argument for bus drivers not taking risks.

Drivers who sit a metre off the back wheel of a cyclist are nothing but d1ckheads who really don't deserve to hold a PSV licence - there's no justification for that, but to be fair while the very odd DB driver does that, it is much more prevalent among private coach operators.

If cyclists can't cycle in the left lane, what's the alternative - ban bikes from certain routes?

I don't doubt your competence as a bus driver, and I'm a responsible cyclist who follows the rules of the road, dresses appropriately, uses lights (I refuse to wear hi-viz) and even wears a helmet. I find the vast majority of DB drivers to be sound and responsible but the odd clown (like the odd idiot cyclist) take stupid risks that twist the perception away from the reality.

And for all the discussion that goes on, Dublin is still a safe and great city to cycle around.

Qualitymark

The ideal would be to do what Copenhagen and Amsterdam (both old cities with plenty of little roads) have done: make a load of dedicated lanes for cyclists, separated from other traffic and with their own traffic lights.

Dublin has started on this with the great Grand Canal cycle path.

I could name several streets that could be given over to cyclists without causing problems to drivers.

Jawgap

Qualitymark wrote: »

The ideal would be to do what Copenhagen and Amsterdam (both old cities with plenty of little roads) have done: make a load of dedicated lanes for cyclists, separated from other traffic and with their own traffic lights.

Dublin has started on this with the great Grand Canal cycle path.

I could name several streets that could be given over to cyclists without causing problems to drivers.

the big difference is that the likes of Copenhagen and Amsterdam have decent public transport options (trams, metro, trains) in addition to buses - Dublin has buses, the LUAS and DART are very limited.

We also have housing and planning policies that encourage people to live miles away from where they work making them car (bike?) dependent.

And we lack the necessary collective community spirit of the Dutch and Danes - which is the reason why rational arguments are rarely as efficient at changing behaviours here as enforcement measures.

Qualitymark

Jawgap wrote: »

And we lack the necessary collective community spirit of the Dutch and Danes - which is the reason why rational arguments are rarely as efficient at changing behaviours here as enforcement measures.

This too can change.

doozerie

Qualitymark wrote: »

The ideal would be to do what Copenhagen and Amsterdam (both old cities with plenty of little roads) have done: make a load of dedicated lanes for cyclists, separated from other traffic and with their own traffic lights.

Dublin has started on this with the great Grand Canal cycle path.

I (a cyclist) cross the Grand Canal cycle path each day at Rathmines. It's a mess. Motorists, cyclists, and pedestrians alike all break the red traffic lights there on a regular basis, both on the Grand Canal route and on the intersecting road leading to/from Rathmines. Segregating cyclists from motorised traffic, and giving dedicated traffic lights to each, solves nothing unless people moderate their behaviour and all too often they don't. And if people were to moderate their behaviour in the first place, then segregation wouldn't be necessary.

Personally I'm in favour of moderated behaviour, I don't believe segregation is practical given Dublin's road network, and a half-way house of segregated islands here and there actually increases the risks rather than reducing them in my view.

Qualitymark

doozerie wrote: »

I (a cyclist) cross the Grand Canal cycle path each day at Rathmines. It's a mess. Motorists, cyclists, and pedestrians alike all break the red traffic lights there on a regular basis, both on the Grand Canal route and on the intersecting road leading to/from Rathmines.

This doesn't mean that the cycle path is a mess, it means the cyclists, motorists and pedestrians are breaking the law. A plainclothes(wo)man or two posted there randomly and giving people summonses would soon deal with that problem.

I don't believe segregation is practical given Dublin's road network

There we differ. As I said, I could mention many roads, currently not heavily used by cars, which could be used as alternative cycle paths.

But the whole road system in Dublin is a mess; the most obvious part of it the garda cars parked all the way across College Street, the most important traffic hub in the city. If there was no parking on that street (and a multi-storey car park was built on Tara Street beside where those cars are parked now) it would be a vast improvement to city traffic.

By the same token, civil and public servants should no longer have free parking in the city. It's a nonsense.

Jawgap

Qualitymark wrote: »

......
By the same token, civil and public servants should no longer have free parking in the city. It's a nonsense.

ah now, steady on there - I wouldn't go that far

In Copenhagen (not sure about Amsterdam) - cyclists get priority at lights - in Dublin, the lights change and it's like Ben Hur - everyone for themselves! I know the Canal is the exception but at every other 'cycle track' junction there's no attempt to use lights to segregate users setting off.

I'm sorry I don't share your optimism about the culture changing.

...and just to nudge things back on (cycle) track a bit, if we are talking about comparisons between here and the Continent, how come you can't take a bike on a bus here - no effort seems to be made to integrate the two forms of commuting even to a minimal degree?

doozerie

Qualitymark wrote:

This doesn't mean that the cycle path is a mess, it means the cyclists, motorists and pedestrians are breaking the law. A plainclothes(wo)man or two posted there randomly and giving people summonses would soon deal with that problem.

I honestly believe that the separate traffic lights for cyclists contribute to the problem. The added delay they introduce seems to make everyone more impatient and even more prone to ignoring these and their own lights. Essentially the bicycle lights there are ignored by many cyclists, motorists, and pedestrians alike, I struggle to see how they help anyone.

Underlying all of this though is peoples' behaviour. I do agree that posting a garda there, plainclothes or otherwise, would make people behave a bit better but that'll only apply for those short periods of time at that junction and you'd need a garda at every other road junction too if you wanted to make a real difference. It's not a practical solution in itself, but it should form part of an overall solution of addressing the attitude and behaviour of people on the road.

At the root of the problem is the ignorance and selfishness of road users, some of which can be tackled by education and some of which can be tackled by enforcing the existing rules of the road and applying the relevant penalties. I'd prefer to see money and effort expended on tackling those issues than on introducing yet another section of road painted in a different colour and somehow deemed by the local authority as being a safe haven for cyclists.

Qualitymark

doozerie wrote: »

I do agree that posting a garda there, plainclothes or otherwise, would make people behave a bit better but that'll only apply for those short periods of time at that junction and you'd need a garda at every other road junction too if you wanted to make a real difference. It's not a practical solution in itself, but it should form part of an overall so.

I think on-the-spot fines (they can be paid later, but would be imposed on the spot) would kill the Irish habit of crashing traffic lights dead. Same with using mobile phones. And indeed the Irish habit of not signaling until you're actually making a turn.

A friend who regards traffic laws as fungible was caught using her mobile phone while driving and got a fine and points on her licence; she's never done it again. If it were common for people to be caught and fined, it'd stop altogether within weeks, the way people stopped driving without seatbelts within weeks when they started to actually get penalties for this.

schemingbohemia

Qualitymark - you've said twice that you could name streets where cyclists could be easily segregated to, what's stopping you?

Qualitymark

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Qualitymark - you've said twice that you could name streets where cyclists could be easily segregated to, what's stopping you?

The fear that motorists will immediately say "Whoopee! A rat-run for meee!"

doozerie

Qualitymark wrote:

I think on-the-spot fines (they can be paid later, but would be imposed on the spot) would kill the Irish habit of crashing traffic lights dead. Same with using mobile phones. And indeed the Irish habit of not signaling until you're actually making a turn.

Yes, enforcement does work, to an extent, but it has to be persistent. As an example, when penalty points were first introduced apparently they had a direct impact and behaviour on the roads improved, but over time people became complacent and behaviour started to revert to previous standards. I believe there are plans to double the penalty points that apply to using a mobile while driving, but again such a threat only works if the gardai actively apply it and are seen to apply it, otherwise people will continue to assume that it's a law that they can casually ignore without fear of repercussions.

But enforcement is only one part of any solution, in my view, there is also a need to educate people about the risks they are taking and posing to others in the hope that this will discourage them from being a danger in the first place. I believe that few people deliberately intend to harm others on the roads, quite often any dangerous actions on their part are made in ignorance of the risks or in the blind hope that they'll get away with doing something that they may consider has minimal risk without causing harm. Education has an important role in teaching people that, for example, breaking a red light is not just an innocuous action, that you won't always get away with it, that sometimes someone will get hurt even if it's not yourself, and that your desire to shave a few seconds off your journey doesn't justify creating the dangers that result.

Qualitymark

Typical Irish solution to double penalty points instead of actually enforcing the ones that exist.

ArmaniJeanss

AlekSmart wrote: »

However I cannot see any meaningful or sustainable way to allow cycles and a succession of buses to enter into a daily battle along such places as Leeson St (Southbound).

Yes,I'm aware that Leeson St southbound does NOT have a cycle lane of any form,in common with St Stephens Green South,BUT try explaining the intricacies of the Road Traffic Act to the multitude of very fragile and vulnerable cyclists who will invariably find themselves in between a Bus and the Kerb due to the fact that a BUS requires far more space in the lead-in and departure to and from the Bus-Stops.

Jawgap wrote: »

Cyclists shouldn't be on contra-flow bus lanes and the easiest and quickest way to sort that out is to stick a couple of Garda there the odd morning with a van in Leeson Lane to cart away the confiscated bikes for those who can't provide identification so they can be summonsed.

I cycle this every day - wasn't even aware until a thread a few months ago that cyclists weren't allowed on this St Stephens Green South stretch.
But whats the actual harm in cyclists being there - it would seem an almighty waste of garda resources to 'stick a couple of garda there with a van' in this position?

Cyclists should be allowed there - if that means the lane needs extending an extra metre then so be it.

How exactly is the law abiding cyclist expected to currently get from say Kildare St to Earlsfort Terrace? I'm guessing its via some convoluted elongated one-way system specifically designed to discourage car use in the city ; cyclists should not also fall victim to this policy.

Also the biggest problem in this stretch is the amount of buses that go straight onto Earlsfort Terrace despite the traffic light sequence being biased against this direction - Dublin Bus, for no obvious reason, recently changed the relatively high frequency 140 to go straight instead of left.

Throw in the existing 14s and 15s, mix with the undoubted fact that 'going straight' only gets about 15 seconds green light every three minutes, whilst going left has green light for 135 seconds every three minutes. So each morning you eventually get a bus queue of say 14,46A,15,145,46A,140,11 along this stretch. With the 14,15 and 140 looking to go straight, it may take 10 minutes for the 11 bus in 'seventh place' to get to make his left turn as the 'straight on' buses are continually stopped.

Qualitymark

By the way, what? Cyclists aren't allowed on contraflow bus lanes? Since when?

Jawgap

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I cycle this every day - wasn't even aware until a thread a few months ago that cyclists weren't allowed on this St Stephens Green South stretch.
But whats the actual harm in cyclists being there - it would seem an almighty waste of garda resources to 'stick a couple of garda there with a van' in this position?

Cyclists should be allowed there - if that means the lane needs extending an extra metre then so be it. .

That's typical of the Irish attitude - it doesn't matter if there is harm or not - you're not supposed to be there so stay the f&ck off it:p

If the perception of harm or the lack of it is the yardstick, sure why should cyclists and / or drivers have to stop for all red lights, or respect one way systems when its quiet?

Two Guards dishing out Fixed Penalty Notices (if they brought them in) would more than earn their keep there for the odd hour every now and again - and that's only from the FPNs they might dish out to cyclists.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

How exactly is the law abiding cyclist expected to currently get from say Kildare St to Earlsfort Terrace? I'm guessing its via some convoluted elongated one-way system specifically designed to discourage car use in the city ; cyclists should not also fall victim to this policy.

I see that as a chance to spend more time breezing through the fine Georgian architecture of the city - if the route is too convoluted on the bike, walk it.

Qualitymark wrote: »

By the way, what? Cyclists aren't allowed on contraflow bus lanes? Since when?

1981

Qualitymark

Jawgap wrote: »

1981

(2) A person shall not enter a contra-flow bus lane with a vehicle other than an omnibus.

Is a bicycle a vehicle, in legal terminology?

Jawgap

Qualitymark wrote: »

Is a bicycle a vehicle, in legal terminology?

Yep....

Road Traffic Act 1961.....

“pedal cycle” means a vehicle which is a pedal bicycle or pedal tricycle;

Dravokivich

Jawgap wrote: »

Yep....

Road Traffic Act 1961.....

“pedal cycle” means a vehicle which is a pedal bicycle or pedal tricycle;

So them clowns on unicycles are exempt. Fecking typical.... :pac:

Qualitymark

Jawgap wrote: »

Yep....

Road Traffic Act 1961.....

“pedal cycle” means a vehicle which is a pedal bicycle or pedal tricycle;

Dammit!

Went along Stephen's Green today and assumed I could turn through Ely Place; no, that landed me back in right-turn-only land.

I assume the only solution is to go along Merrion Row and Baggot Street and turn up Pembroke Street, and do a big circle avoiding Earlsfort Terrace altogether.

AlekSmart

Qualitymark wrote: »

Why?

Is this another example of the typical short-termism of Ireland, that there are not spare buses available?

Every housewife knows to have spare sets of clothes for the family in case of accidents, extra food in the cupboard in case of visitors, etc. Why aren't there spare buses ready to roll immediately?

(From my own observation, I think one of the big problems of Dublin Bus is the fact that it's run from several different garages rather than centrally - this lack of spares is typical, but it also causes problems, for instance, in covering one area that has buses from several different garages transiting; in theory the area should be well covered, but in practice each garage thinks the other garages' buses are covering a hole in the schedule.)

In relation to cyclists and buses, by the way, I'm a cyclist, a passenger and a driver, and don't see any difficulty with mutual courtesy and care for safety on the road. On the turn from St Stephen's Green to Leeson Street yesterday, for instance, I was on my bike waiting for the lights to change when a bus came up behind me wanting to turn left. He gave a tiny 'bip' on the horn and I hopped off and pulled up the bike against the pavement so he could safely turn. (Then the lights changed to a pedestrian green and I walked the bike across, remounted and rode off.)

The days of Dublin Bus having spare buses (and drivers) "ready to roll immediately" are well and truly gone.

Succesive viability plans and network reviews,combined with the removal of c.200 buses and 350 drivers witin the past 18 months means the Peak Vehicle Requirement (PVR) vs Total Service Fleet ratio is at the bare minimum.

Dublin Bus has a fleet availability level at the upper level of European norms,simply due to the reality that it is running avery tight ship operationally.

Whilst Qualitymark may think Dublin Bus is fragmented,the reality is that ALL Operational Control is now fully centralized and automated to a high degree via Central Control.

Therefore whilst several garages may supply vehicles which traverse any given area,the control of these vehicles is fully centralized,with the individual garages having no role other than supplying the vehicle and driver.

I can only surmise that Qualitymarks remarks regarding Cycling along St Stephens Green East/Leeson St junction are tongue in cheek,as it exactly matches my point regarding conflict between Badly designed Cycle facilities and Bus Operations.

I would recommend to Qualitymark that he/she linger a while at this junction (as a pedestrian,of course !) and take note of the Traffic Signal sequencing particularly the transition from a Green Left Turn signal to a Full Red.

This junction has for some years now been signalled in contravention of the so-called Traffic Signs Manual,which lays down the rules regarding all traffic signs and signalling in the Republic.

A bus driver turning left here on a Green Arrow will find the signal changes directly to Full red with NO provision for the statutory sequence of Green-Amber-Red which is the norm elsewhere in the State....It is a VERY dangerous and conflict-inducing situation which has been reported many times without any action being taken.

It also has to be recognised that this particular left-turn is extremely tight,with potentially significant conflict between Dawson St Bound traffic "cutting the corner" on the right turn from Leeson St on to the Green,all ensuring that a busdriver is fully occupied whilst making the left-turn manouvere,without having to bip-the-horn and await a response from cyclists who are in a position of significant danger due to their ignoring of the statutory signage as far back as Merrion Row.....:(

It is one reason for the entirely sensible,though largely ignored,restriction of those stretches of Contra-Flow Bus Lane to....Buses !

The situation here is by no means perfect,and will shortly worsen significantly when traffic direction reverses on Hume Street ands becomes two-way on Kildare Street during Luas BXD works....all the more reason for Cyclists to be made aware of the restrictions on their mode of transport also.

schemingbohemia

I've cycled illegally that bus lane on Stephens Green South, I think it's probably one of the few places where I cycle illegally - this was initially done through ignorance but not now.

The problem with the turn for bus drivers and cyclists is the fact that there's a mix of buses that go straight and turn left, you might be sitting on your bike at the turn unaware that the bus behind is a 142 rather than a 145.

Most annoying thing I've witnessed there is an unmarked Garda car driving up the bus lane slowly, being flashed by the bus driver and then deliberately stalling at the lights to make sure the bus was unable to go through the lights thus delaying a bus full of people the numpties.

Qualitymark

It seems, according to posts elsewhere on boards.ie, that it isn't illegal - the law was amended this month:


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0332.html

S.I. No. 332/2012 — Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2012.

Cycle tracks

14. (1) A cycle track shall be indicated by—

(a) traffic sign number RUS 009 (with-flow cycle track) provided in association with traffic sign number RRM 022 (continuous white line) or RRM 023 (broken white line) which latter signs may be marked on the right hand edge of the cycle track or on the right hand and left hand edges of the cycle track,

(b) traffic sign number RUS 059 (contra-flow cycle track) provided in association with traffic sign number RRM 022 (continuous white line) which may be marked on the right hand edge of the cycle track or on the left hand edge of the cycle track or on both sides, or

(c) traffic sign number RUS 058 (shared track for pedal cycles and pedestrians).

(2) The periods of operation of a cycle track may be indicated on an information plate which may be provided in association with traffic sign number RUS 009, RUS 059 or RUS 058.

(3) Where a cycle track, provided by traffic sign number RUS 009 in association with traffic sign number RRM 022 (continuous white line) or RRM 023 (broken white line), is two-way, pedal cycles shall be driven as near as possible to the left hand side of each lane.

rp

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I've cycled illegally that bus lane on Stephens Green South, I think it's probably one of the few places where I cycle illegally - this was initially done through ignorance but not now.

You're OK as of 1st October this year - bicycles now *can* use the contraflow bus lanes, too.

Qualitymark

rp wrote: »

You're OK as of 1st October this year - bicycles now *can* use the contraflow bus lanes, too.

Though it names a specific numbered sign, which appears to show a bus and a bicycle. There's no bicycle shown on the Stephen's Green contraflow, only a bus. Is this a different sign, making the contraflow lane bus-only? Or not?

mrbike

Qualitymark wrote: »

Though it names a specific numbered sign, which appears to show a bus and a bicycle. There's no bicycle shown on the Stephen's Green contraflow, only a bus. Is this a different sign, making the contraflow lane bus-only? Or not?

The section referring to contra-flow bus lanes is here:

Bus Lanes

....

(b) A contra-flow bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 030 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024.

(2) A person shall not enter a bus lane with a vehicle other than a large public service vehicle or a pedal cycle during the period of operation of the bus lane indicated on an information plate.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0332.html

Bikes have been specifically included.

BostonB

Hurrah. Made no sense having to do a huge loop to avoid contra-flow bus lanes on my route.

What the Heck are those signs?

mrbike

BostonB wrote: »

Hurrah. Made no sense having to do a huge loop to avoid contra-flow bus lanes on my route.

What the Heck are those signs?

They are listed here :

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0181.html

RUS 030 is the contra-flow sign (there is no picture of a bike) http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/images/s60187647CF995.jpg

RRM 024 is the road marking Lana Bus. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/images/si14ba59647cf99a.jpg

BostonB

Cheers thanks for that.

Tombo2001

A Question to no-one in particular......

The flow of traffic in places like Phibsboro, Northstrand, Rathmines Road, Harolds Cross......the commuter funnels......is typically (if its moving) at about 30k or 40k an hour.

My question for this.....

Is the 'margin for error' for a 40ft bus driving at this speed the same as it is for a 7ft car.

As a cyclist, I always feel a bit more nervous when a bus swishes past me at this speed. THat is to say, if something happened in front of the bus it would take it longer to stop......also, it couldnt swerve as easily as a car, to avoid something.

mrbike

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Is the 'margin for error' for a 40ft bus driving at this speed the same as it is for a 7ft car.

I know the section of road in Phibsobro very well. The bus lane is far too narrow to accommodate a car overtaking a cyclist, let alone a bus. If a bus or taxi overtakes you at speed in this lane (without moving to the right into the other lane) then it is dangerous overtaking.

I just 'take the lane'. I ride a few feet from the kerb (as recommended), and this leaves no room for a dangerous overtaking maneuver. If you get beeped at, just ignore it. It's recommended and perfectly legal.

There's some more information here : http://dublincycling.com/node/365

ThisRegard

Hot topic at the moment on Live Line, first caller seems to be an amalgamation of all the stupid things ever said about cyclists in the history of boards.ie.

Qualitymark

Oh go on, ring in

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