Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

Bullseye1

The reason some people view the property tax as immoral might be the fact it does not take account of your ability to pay unlike income tax which is based on what you actually earn. There are people who pay little or no tax who should be contributing and there are those who are still quite comfortable and should be paying more. At least income tax is based on your ability to pay. The property tax will be applicable regardless, unless of course your living in local authority housing.

Anyone hear Eileen on the Joe Duffy show this week. The level of entitlement in this country is enormous. Most people still working are expected to bleed more. They are at a breaking point.

lugha

dvpower wrote: »

I'm intrigued as to why some people think a property tax is immoral?
People throw that out from time to time (including EK), but nobody seems to be able to draw a clear moral line between a property tax (whose details are not yet known) and any of the other taxes.

What makes the Property Tax immoral, but Income Tax, VAT, CGT, CAT et al moral?

I think it is simply a conservative streak that many people seem to instinctively have. You present them with a new idea (and property tax is in effect new in Ireland) and there is a gut reaction to be suspicious of change or doing something different or new. And when the can’t make a proper, stand-up argument against it, they wheel out the nebulous argument that it is somehow immoral. Of course, if you challenge them on why exactly it is immoral.. Well, I’m sure you can see for yourself how they are left flapping (though it is kinda clever of them to pretend that they have answered it when they clearly have not.)

There was a similar response when both the smoking ban and the NCT was introduced. There were many people who couldn’t comprehend that the way things always were, were not necessarily the best way they could be. And there was the similar (and in hindsight amusing) dark threats that the FF government of the day would pay dearly at the polling booth when the people would have their say!

The reality of course was that within no time, both were widely accepted as the imminently sensible and progressive measures that they were. It will be interesting to see if the anti-property tax ire will fade as quickly once it is rolled out.

Le_Dieux

Hijpo wrote: »

not including expenses, which is €118,981 in annualy
if your on 3800 per week why would you need an extra 2288 per week in expenses?
What can you possibly be spending 3800 in one week on that you would need an extra 2288 to buffer yourself with?

And enda gets €12,000 to go to work, while he could throw a stone from his apartment in Dublin, and break a window in DE

These prats must think we are total gobsh1tes on the streets here.

Please please Mick O'Leary, start a political party, and get Gerald Kean to be Your MOF!!!

Hijpo

Why did enda think it was immoral when he said it was?

Why are so many other partys against this property tax?

Izzy Skint

dvpower wrote: »

I don't know what you're on about - I never said it was a issue of morality at all.

Enda did.

Slick50

dvpower wrote: »

The liability is leveled against the home owner - the whole lein thing only comes into play when you sell your home (i.e. you turn it into cash).

So how exactly does it put your home at risk? This is a red herring, isn't it?

lien [leen, l ən]
(plural liens) n

legal claim on somebody's property: the legal right to keep or sell somebody else's property as security for a debt

It gives someone a legal claim against your property. I've asked this before too.... how much do you think would have to be owed to the government, before they started looking for court orders to sell your property? No matter... it is dangerous and wrong to ever give them that sort of authority.

It is undoubtedly the case that many Irish people do have a passionate (if rather irrational) attitude to their home. And Kenny was seeking to make political capital from that weakness then, just as FF did in ’77 and again are now (and, according to recent opinion polls, possibly succeeding!).

There is nothing irrational about having an attatchment to your home.

lugha wrote:

Certainly a property tax affects the important social function of providing shelter for yourself and your family. But income tax affects the equally, or in some cases more, important social function of providing for your family, food and clothing and heating and health care and educational needs and basically everything under the sun, apart from shelter.

But at least it is relative to your income, you're not told you have to pay it even if you didn't have any work/income.

Micky Dolenz

lugha wrote: »

It is undoubtedly the case that many Irish people do have a passionate (if rather irrational) attitude to their home. And Kenny was seeking to make political capital from that weakness then, just as FF did in ’77 and again are now (and, according to recent opinion polls, possibly succeeding!).

So you couldn’t say it better than Enda? Maybe you could say more than Enda and tell us why exactly it is immoral?

Certainly a property tax affects the important social function of providing shelter for yourself and your family. But income tax affects the equally, or in some cases more, important social function of providing for your family, food and clothing and heating and health care and educational needs and basically everything under the sun, apart from shelter.

So a simple question, posed many times on these threads, remains to be answered. Why is it immoral to apply a tax that impacts on just one of these essential needs, but it is perfectly acceptable to apply a tax that impacts on all of the others?

dvpower wrote: »

I'm intrigued as to why some people think a property tax is immoral?
People throw that out from time to time (including EK), but nobody seems to be able to draw a clear moral line between a property tax (whose details are not yet known) and any of the other taxes.

What makes the Property Tax immoral, but Income Tax, VAT, CGT, CAT et al moral?

I have paid stamp duty on every property I have ever bought. We are not talking a couple of quid here but tens of thousands. I pay income tax, VAT, and other taxes. I understand my taxed income will be reduced further by buying and availing of other services and goods, which are also heavily taxed.

I have always paid my stamp duty and non residential property tax,as far as I am concerned I have paid my property tax.

It is in short, a triple or quadruple tax, it's a complete piss take.

I lived and worked in the UK and paid council tax but at least I got something tangible in return for it.

I currently am working outside of Ireland but am still an up to date and current Irish tax payer.

To the government officials reading this, get your own house in order then you can come around to my home.

Ghandee

lugha wrote: »

IOf course, if you challenge them on why exactly it is immoral.. Well, I’m sure you can see for yourself how they are left flapping (though it is kinda clever of them to pretend that they have answered it when they clearly have not.)
.

Pretended?

The law according to lugha eh?

We answered, because you dismissed the answer and reasoning (but who made you judge jury and executioner?) Doesn't mean the reason and answer was wrong.

Meanwhile, FF jump in the bandwagon to pour scorn on a property tax.

So, who supports it now?

Please remind me?

Le_Dieux

Listen to this, and tell me WTF is going on/wrong in this Godforsaken country!!! Remember when we had our AGM, we were told to register and pay the HHC, and it will be reviewed next year.

http://www.kfmradio.com/kfm-podcasting/kildare-today-podcasts.html

Hijpo

Slick50 wrote: »

There is nothing irrational about having an attatchment to your home.

It could come across as irrational to someone who buys houses to make a profit from them in contrast to buying one to make a home of it.

dvpower

Slick50 wrote: »

It gives someone a legal claim against your property. I've asked this before too.... how much do you think would have to be owed to the government, before they started looking for court orders to sell your property? No matter... it is dangerous and wrong to ever give them that sort of authority.

There is nothing irrational about having an attatchment to your home.

Can you point to the place in the actual HHC legislation that worries you in this regard?

I'm pretty familiar with it and I can't see anything that allows anyone ''to sell your property' ?


I think you are either misinformed here or just introducing a red herring.

Ghandee

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I have paid stamp duty on every property I have ever bought. We are not talking a couple of quid here but tens of thousands. I pay income tax, VAT, and other taxes. I understand my taxed income will be reduced further by buying and availing of other services and goods, which are also heavily taxed.

I have always paid my stamp duty and non residential property tax,as far as I am concerned I have paid my property tax.

It is in short, a triple or quadruple tax, it's a complete piss take.

I lived and worked in the UK and paid council tax but at least I got something tangible in return for it.

I currently am working outside of Ireland but am still an up to date and current Irish tax payer.

To the government officials reading this, get your own house in order then you can come around to my home.

Deserves to be quoted, excellent summarisation Mickey.

dvpower

Bullseye1 wrote: »

The reason some people view the property tax as immoral might be the fact it does not take account of your ability to pay unlike income tax which is based on what you actually earn.

So is that the crux of the moral argument - the ability to pay?

dvpower

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I have paid stamp duty on every property I have ever bought. We are not talking a couple of quid here but tens of thousands. I pay income tax, VAT, and other taxes. I understand my taxed income will be reduced further by buying and availing of other services and goods, which are also heavily taxed.

I have always paid my stamp duty and non residential property tax,as far as I am concerned I have paid my property tax.

It is in short, a triple or quadruple tax, it's a complete piss take.

I lived and worked in the UK and paid council tax but at least I got something tangible in return for it.

I currently am working outside of Ireland but am still an up to date and current Irish tax payer.

To the government officials reading this, get your own house in order then you can come around to my home.

You haven't answered the morality question at all
(unless "I Think I pay enough tax already" is a moral argument - but that would apply to all other taxes too)

dxhound2005

Bullseye1 wrote: »

The reason some people view the property tax as immoral might be the fact it does not take account of your ability to pay unlike income tax which is based on what you actually earn. There are people who pay little or no tax who should be contributing and there are those who are still quite comfortable and should be paying more. At least income tax is based on your ability to pay. The property tax will be applicable regardless, unless of course your living in local authority housing.

Anyone hear Eileen on the Joe Duffy show this week. The level of entitlement in this country is enormous. Most people still working are expected to bleed more. They are at a breaking point.

We are talking about the owners of private houses and this thread is currently about the Household Charge. I have asked before and I ask again how can anyone who owns a private house not be able to get €100 together in 3 months to keep on the right side of the law?

As far as the proposed Property Tax goes how do you know that no account will be taken of a persons ability to pay? In GB they deal with this by making everyone liable but then give a welfare benefit to those who can prove they need help to pay. Something similar could apply here but I don't know if that will be the case any more than you can say that it won't.

https://www.gov.uk/council-tax-benefit/overview

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

So is that the crux of the moral argument - the ability to pay?

How's about the fact that, for those after finishing paying their mortgages, thousands paid in vat etc in the upkeep of their home on top, now have to pay a rent, am indefinite rent for the privilege of living in their (fully paid for, previously taxed, through stamp duty) home?

dvpower

Hijpo wrote: »

Why did enda think it was immoral when he said it was?

Playing politics perhaps.

Hijpo wrote: »

Why are so many other partys against this property tax?

Playing politics perhaps.



Do you think it's immoral? If so, can you explain why?

Micky Dolenz

dvpower wrote: »

So is that the crux of the moral argument - the ability to pay?

That plays a part of it for some of the residents of Ireland for more, it doesn't.

It was an ill conceived and poorly laid out tax on the people of the Republic of Ireland forced by the IMF and accepted by the weak government of the Republic of Ireland, who in turn did a piss poor job of rolling it out.

I am willing to stand in front of a judge and tell them I can afford to pay this "tax" but will not, under any circumstance.

Le_Dieux

Someone loaded this earlier today: http://www.thejournal.ie/kenny-says-well-pay-our-dues-a-year-after-varadkar-said-not-another-cent-350805-Feb2012/

I heard today that next Maech another 3.1 BILLION euros will be handed over to IBRC.

Liars..the whole lot of them!!!!!!

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

How's about the fact that, for those after finishing paying their mortgages, thousands paid in vat etc in the upkeep of their home on top, now have to pay a rent, am indefinite rent for the privilege of living in their (fully paid for, previously taxed, through stamp duty) home?

Is this your main moral argument against property tax?
I get why this might be an unwelcome burden, but immoral? - I think you need to try harder.

Micky Dolenz

dvpower wrote: »

You haven't answered the morality question at all
(unless "I Think I pay enough tax already" is a moral argument - but that would apply to all other taxes too)

As said earlier dv, Enda said that, he is the current leader of the country and the guy who brought the tax in. Well, bent over for the IMF, allowing the tax to be passed.

Maybe ask him what he meant when he said "
It is morally unjust and unfair to tax a person's home, and by so doing grind him into the ground. Indeed in cases it could probably be unconstitutional”

dvpower

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

That plays a part of it for some of the residents of Ireland for more, it doesn't.

It was an ill conceived and poorly laid out tax on the people of the Republic of Ireland forced by the IMF and accepted by the weak government of the Republic of Ireland, who in turn did a piss poor job of rolling it out.

I am willing to stand in front of a judge and tell them I can afford to pay this "tax" but will not, under any circumstance.

Why? You can afford to pay it but you won't because others can't afford to? Is that it?

I must say - I thought that when someone declares a tax to be immoral, they would be able to clearly explain why - but, so far, I've only had a few very confused explanations.

There's nothing immoral about property tax at all really, is there?

lugha

dvpower wrote: »

You haven't answered the morality question at all
(unless "I Think I pay enough tax already" is a moral argument - but that would apply to all other taxes too)

I was about to post exactly the same thing until I scrolled down.

Not to worry! In a page or two, Ghandee will be insisting that he did answer it! :pac:


An an aside, it is worth noting the diversity of (spurious) reasons offered as to why a property tax is immoral. When something actually really is immoral there is usually a single, concise, clear reason as to why this is so.

Slick50

dvpower wrote: »

Can you point to the place in the actual HHC legislation that worries you in this regard?

I'm pretty familiar with it and I can't see anything that allows anyone ''to sell your property' ?


I think you are either misinformed here or just introducing a red herring.

Back to looking for "a link" to that!

I never said it is in it, I have said it gives an opening to the government to seek a lien, Once the debt is due against the property, it doesn't have to be in the legislation, for the government to seek it.

It is not a red herring. You cannot take any politician at his word, I certainly don't trust anything they say when it comes to the security of my home.

As regards answering the morality issue, it has been answered dozens of times. You may not agree with the answers but they are there. (@ lugha too)

dvpower

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

As said earlier dv, Enda said that, he is the current leader of the country and the guy who brought the tax in. Well, bent over for the IMF, allowing the tax to be passed.

Maybe ask him what he meant when he said "
It is morally unjust and unfair to tax a person's home, and by so doing grind him into the ground. Indeed in cases it could probably be unconstitutional”

I'd love to know what Enda meant, but since he isn't here right now, maybe you should try and explain your own position properly - instead of just pointing to a position that you seem to agree with and reject all at the same time.

Micky Dolenz

dvpower wrote: »

Why? You can afford to pay it but you won't because others can't afford to? Is that it?

I must say - I thought that when someone declares a tax to be immoral, they would be able to clearly explain why - but, so far, I've only had a few very confused explanations.

There's nothing immoral about property tax at all really, is there?

See post above. Your great leader used the immoral word.

Micky Dolenz

dvpower wrote: »

I'd love to know what Enda meant, but since he isn't here right now, maybe you should try and explain your own position properly - instead of just pointing to a position that you seem to agree with and reject all at the same time.

dv, I have already clearly outlined why I think this tax is unfair. So you know my stance.

I can quote my earlier post if you wish, but it's right there, a few posts up.

Enda is a liar and was always suited to opposition. I have never voted FF.

Jaysus, it's getting to the stage I am considering voting SF.

dvpower

Slick50 wrote: »

Back to looking for "a link" to that!

Yeah - afraid so. Sorry for looking for some evidence for 'facts' you put forward.
Can I take it that you don't have any?

Slick50 wrote: »

Once the debt is due against the property, it doesn't have to be in the legislation, for the government to seek it.

:eek: Break out the tinfoil hats.

Slick50 wrote: »

It is not a red herring. You cannot take any politician at his word, I certainly don't trust anything they say when it comes to the security of my home.

Since you don't trust any politician, you should really study the legislation. It's your friend.

Slick50 wrote: »

As regards answering the morality issue, it has been answered dozens of times.

It hasn't - not once.
Care to give your take on the question? - it seems that, so far, it can be all things to all men.

Hijpo

dvpower wrote: »

Playing politics perhaps.

Playing politics perhaps.



Do you think it's immoral? If so, can you explain why?

playing politics? a game to these politicians is it?

i think its immoral to the point where a basic human principle of allowing working class people to live comfortably in there own home that they are working and paying enough for, is now being taken away by putting more financial burden on the people because of the home that they have worked hard to acquire and maintane

I havent heard of anyone in a council house being evicted because they cant meet there payments, iv never heard of a council tennant having to scrimp and save because the boiler is gone. iv witnessed plenty of people in council houses with 2 cars jetting off on two holidays a year with 3 kids though.

Bullseye1

Income tax is where any additional tax should be raised. Additional bands should be created. I never understood the reason behind having just the two bands. There should be multiple bands on a proper tiered table.