dvpower wrote: » I'm intrigued as to why some people think a property tax is immoral? People throw that out from time to time (including EK), but nobody seems to be able to draw a clear moral line between a property tax (whose details are not yet known) and any of the other taxes. What makes the Property Tax immoral, but Income Tax, VAT, CGT, CAT et al moral?
Hijpo wrote: » not including expenses, which is €118,981 in annualy if your on 3800 per week why would you need an extra 2288 per week in expenses? What can you possibly be spending 3800 in one week on that you would need an extra 2288 to buffer yourself with?
dvpower wrote: » I don't know what you're on about - I never said it was a issue of morality at all.
dvpower wrote: » The liability is leveled against the home owner - the whole lein thing only comes into play when you sell your home (i.e. you turn it into cash). So how exactly does it put your home at risk? This is a red herring, isn't it?
lien [leen, l ən] (plural liens) nlegal claim on somebody's property: the legal right to keep or sell somebody else's property as security for a debt
It is undoubtedly the case that many Irish people do have a passionate (if rather irrational) attitude to their home. And Kenny was seeking to make political capital from that weakness then, just as FF did in ’77 and again are now (and, according to recent opinion polls, possibly succeeding!).
lugha wrote: Certainly a property tax affects the important social function of providing shelter for yourself and your family. But income tax affects the equally, or in some cases more, important social function of providing for your family, food and clothing and heating and health care and educational needs and basically everything under the sun, apart from shelter.
lugha wrote: » It is undoubtedly the case that many Irish people do have a passionate (if rather irrational) attitude to their home. And Kenny was seeking to make political capital from that weakness then, just as FF did in ’77 and again are now (and, according to recent opinion polls, possibly succeeding!). So you couldn’t say it better than Enda? Maybe you could say more than Enda and tell us why exactly it is immoral? Certainly a property tax affects the important social function of providing shelter for yourself and your family. But income tax affects the equally, or in some cases more, important social function of providing for your family, food and clothing and heating and health care and educational needs and basically everything under the sun, apart from shelter. So a simple question, posed many times on these threads, remains to be answered. Why is it immoral to apply a tax that impacts on just one of these essential needs, but it is perfectly acceptable to apply a tax that impacts on all of the others?
lugha wrote: » IOf course, if you challenge them on why exactly it is immoral.. Well, I’m sure you can see for yourself how they are left flapping (though it is kinda clever of them to pretend that they have answered it when they clearly have not.) .
Slick50 wrote: » There is nothing irrational about having an attatchment to your home.
Slick50 wrote: » It gives someone a legal claim against your property. I've asked this before too.... how much do you think would have to be owed to the government, before they started looking for court orders to sell your property? No matter... it is dangerous and wrong to ever give them that sort of authority. There is nothing irrational about having an attatchment to your home.
Micky Dolenz wrote: » I have paid stamp duty on every property I have ever bought. We are not talking a couple of quid here but tens of thousands. I pay income tax, VAT, and other taxes. I understand my taxed income will be reduced further by buying and availing of other services and goods, which are also heavily taxed. I have always paid my stamp duty and non residential property tax,as far as I am concerned I have paid my property tax. It is in short, a triple or quadruple tax, it's a complete piss take. I lived and worked in the UK and paid council tax but at least I got something tangible in return for it. I currently am working outside of Ireland but am still an up to date and current Irish tax payer. To the government officials reading this, get your own house in order then you can come around to my home.
Bullseye1 wrote: » The reason some people view the property tax as immoral might be the fact it does not take account of your ability to pay unlike income tax which is based on what you actually earn.
Bullseye1 wrote: » The reason some people view the property tax as immoral might be the fact it does not take account of your ability to pay unlike income tax which is based on what you actually earn. There are people who pay little or no tax who should be contributing and there are those who are still quite comfortable and should be paying more. At least income tax is based on your ability to pay. The property tax will be applicable regardless, unless of course your living in local authority housing. Anyone hear Eileen on the Joe Duffy show this week. The level of entitlement in this country is enormous. Most people still working are expected to bleed more. They are at a breaking point.
dvpower wrote: » So is that the crux of the moral argument - the ability to pay?
Hijpo wrote: » Why did enda think it was immoral when he said it was?
Hijpo wrote: » Why are so many other partys against this property tax?
Ghandee wrote: » How's about the fact that, for those after finishing paying their mortgages, thousands paid in vat etc in the upkeep of their home on top, now have to pay a rent, am indefinite rent for the privilege of living in their (fully paid for, previously taxed, through stamp duty) home?
dvpower wrote: » You haven't answered the morality question at all (unless "I Think I pay enough tax already" is a moral argument - but that would apply to all other taxes too)
Micky Dolenz wrote: » That plays a part of it for some of the residents of Ireland for more, it doesn't. It was an ill conceived and poorly laid out tax on the people of the Republic of Ireland forced by the IMF and accepted by the weak government of the Republic of Ireland, who in turn did a piss poor job of rolling it out. I am willing to stand in front of a judge and tell them I can afford to pay this "tax" but will not, under any circumstance.
dvpower wrote: » Can you point to the place in the actual HHC legislation that worries you in this regard? I'm pretty familiar with it and I can't see anything that allows anyone ''to sell your property' ? I think you are either misinformed here or just introducing a red herring.
Micky Dolenz wrote: » As said earlier dv, Enda said that, he is the current leader of the country and the guy who brought the tax in. Well, bent over for the IMF, allowing the tax to be passed. Maybe ask him what he meant when he said "It is morally unjust and unfair to tax a person's home, and by so doing grind him into the ground. Indeed in cases it could probably be unconstitutional”
dvpower wrote: » Why? You can afford to pay it but you won't because others can't afford to? Is that it? I must say - I thought that when someone declares a tax to be immoral, they would be able to clearly explain why - but, so far, I've only had a few very confused explanations. There's nothing immoral about property tax at all really, is there?
dvpower wrote: » I'd love to know what Enda meant, but since he isn't here right now, maybe you should try and explain your own position properly - instead of just pointing to a position that you seem to agree with and reject all at the same time.
Slick50 wrote: » Back to looking for "a link" to that!
Slick50 wrote: » Once the debt is due against the property, it doesn't have to be in the legislation, for the government to seek it.
Slick50 wrote: » It is not a red herring. You cannot take any politician at his word, I certainly don't trust anything they say when it comes to the security of my home.
Slick50 wrote: » As regards answering the morality issue, it has been answered dozens of times.
dvpower wrote: » Playing politics perhaps. Playing politics perhaps. Do you think it's immoral? If so, can you explain why?
