Will the abortion protests in NI last?

lazygal

Just listening to the news on RTE radio and there's been a protest outside the new Marie Stopes clinic in Belfast. One of the representatives from Precious Life has said they'll be there as long as it takes to close the clinic. I'm not sure about how long their resolve will last, given the religious nature of a lot of the comments from protestors I'd guess they are in it for the long haul.

Kylo Ren

Do they not have jobs?

ArtyC

ffs people need to start living their own life and stop terrorising people who have different views. I'm glad it will save women who have decided on this the hardship of travelling abroad. Its happening anyways..... their protests will last a while id imagine- they have little to be doing obviously

krudler

Its not abortion on demand though, given its mostly YD supporters they'll trot out the same old "abortion isnt needed to save lives, except when it is, and then its not abortion" nonsense.

Twee.

I hope they don't approach (or harass...) women on their way in to the clinic if they plan on staking the place out.

amdublin

I'm tempted to go up and protest (beside them) about their protesting.

mayobumblebee

http://www.mariestopes.org/media/message-thanks-ahead-belfast-centre-launch

they have asked for people to stay away from the clinic unless you have business there

daenerysstormborn3

Couldn't believe my eyes when I saw it on the news.

"It's out and out murder" :mad::mad::mad:

Truley

Do these guys not have their own children to look after :P

jill_valentine

I saw this on the news with the sound off, and I swear you could tell which speakers were the "pro life" people a mile off without the captions.

Lingua Franca

Keno 92 wrote: »

Do they not have jobs?

No, Bernie Smyth doesn't have a job other than she has spent about 15 years harrassing people going into and out of the Family Planning Clinic further up Great Victoria Street in Belfast. She'll be in it for the long haul.

If she's making any money from her "job" I wonder where it comes from.

skinny1980

The extremists obviously want the women who have abortions and the doctors, the nurses and staff of abortion clinics arrested, tried and convicted of murder.
In America the worst of these bigots bomb abortion clinics and shoot abortion doctors and there are many on the right in America who would have the women executed.
A woman was recently jailed for illegally self-aborting in England with pills she bought online - as if she had no right to do as she liked with her own body!
In 1992 in the Republic of Ireland the people voted against any restriction on the right to travel or the right to information.
These extremists would probably like to reverse that by putting all pregnant women in "protective" custody or have mandatory pregnancy tests for all females of child bearing age at airports and ports.
You can expect this mob to get more violent and extreme as abortion becomes more available.

ash23

A relative of mine went to a well established clinic in the UK and there were protesters there. There will always be protesters at abortion clinics.

But the media frenzy will die off in time and the fairweather protesters will go home. But yes, there will always be the die-hards hovering around.

Twee.

Twee. wrote: »

I hope they don't approach (or harass...) women on their way in to the clinic if they plan on staking the place out.

Of course they will. They see it as their duty to 'save' all those unborn souls.

Lyaiera

I was listening to Neil Prendeville on the radio a few days ago. (I was in a shop, would never listen to him as a choice.) He had a non-campaigner (as in she didn't campaign on the issue, she just rang up to be heard and never made a deal of it otherwise) on the phone talking about how abortion was awful. He kept on saying, "You know the EU are going to force us to legalise abortion, or we could have another referendum on it." I was pretty angry about this, as was the woman on the phone. Anyway he kept on going on about the EU forcing abortion down our throats, totally misrepresenting that the legislation was if a woman's life was in danger. Eventually he asked the woman on the phone if it would be ok to have an abortion if a woman's life was in danger. The staunchly anti-abortion woman literally said, "I guess that would be her own choice, and I wouldn't hold it against her if she had an abortion to save her own life." She fecking literally said it was the woman's choice. Not once did that literal tosser Prendeville say that's what the EU court decision was about, he just kept saying it was forcing us to legalise abortion. And the woman was irate at the EU for this, despite her agreeing entirely with the EU's opinion, and not once did Prendeville (the literal tosser) let her know that.

ehcocmeo

Sorry if this post seems like semi Spamming.. But some Facts who Marie Stopes before you go rushing to defend this organisation --> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81296595&postcount=22

ash23

ehcocmeo wrote: »

Sorry if this post seems like semi Spamming.. But some Facts who Marie Stopes before you go rushing to defend this organisation --> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81296595&postcount=22

She was the founder. Her views aren't necessarily connected to the actual clinic. She was prochoice and did something about it. She was a lot of other things too but that doesn't necessarily mean that all the clinics hold the same views or agendas.

eviltwin

ehcocmeo wrote: »

Sorry if this post seems like semi Spamming.. But some Facts who Marie Stopes before you go rushing to defend this organisation --> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81296595&postcount=22

Yeah we get it, she wasn't exactly the sort of woman you'd want to hang out with. But her legacy is needed today, women have benefited from the clinics in all sorts of ways - they offer other services besides abortions.

ehcocmeo

eviltwin wrote: »

Yeah we get it, she wasn't exactly the sort of woman you'd want to hang out with. But her legacy is needed today, women have benefited from the clinics in all sorts of ways - they offer other services besides abortions.

Ok. But what about the underlying reasons and motives for founding this organisation? Stopes was a supporter of eugenics. She wanted racial purification.

And today they supported the abortion of Thousands of Downs Syndrome children. Don't see how much has changed.


As for "Helping"... Well at £450+ I think the only ones they are helping are their own pockets.

Overature

It probably will, the US have lots of abortion clinics for a while now, and they have loads of protests

eviltwin

ehcocmeo wrote: »

Ok. But what about the underlying reasons and motives for founding this organisation? Stopes was a supporter of eugenics. She wanted racial purification.

And today they supported the abortion of Thousands of Downs Syndrome children. Don't see how much has changed.


As for "Helping"... Well at £450+ I think the only ones they are helping are their own pockets.

Okay......

I don't agree with her views and I think to suggest anyone involved in MS today shares them is just silly.

MS in Belfast has a cut off of 9 weeks, they will not be aborting any DS babies.

As for the cost, its a private clinic, abortion is free on the NHS but those NI laws don't allow that service to extend to the north. As a private clinic of course you have to pay. They have overheads like any business. Its a pity its not free or cheaper but its cheaper than many of Uk clinics.

sambuka41

ehcocmeo wrote: »

Ok. But what about the underlying reasons and motives for founding this organisation? Stopes was a supporter of eugenics. She wanted racial purification.
.

She has been dead for over half a century; do you not think it possible that the organisation had developed and moved forward in that amount of time?

The only non movement from an archaic view of the world comes from the Irish state.

ehcocmeo

eviltwin wrote: »

Okay......

I don't agree with her views and I think to suggest anyone involved in MS today shares them is just silly.

MS in Belfast has a cut off of 9 weeks, they will not be aborting any DS babies.

As for the cost, its a private clinic, abortion is free on the NHS but those NI laws don't allow that service to extend to the north. As a private clinic of course you have to pay. They have overheads like any business. Its a pity its not free or cheaper but its cheaper than many of Uk clinics.

So you are ok with Marie Stopes as an organisation.. Whose patron was a Hitler sympathiser and who called Jews "A curse"?

And when they are making money from abortion.. I really can't see how this is helping.

as for not aborting Down Syndrome Babies in Northern Ireland.. they will just refer women to their Clinics in England.

skinny1980

ehcocmeo wrote: »

Ok. But what about the underlying reasons and motives for founding this organisation? Stopes was a supporter of eugenics. She wanted racial purification.

And today they supported the abortion of Thousands of Downs Syndrome children. Don't see how much has changed.


As for "Helping"... Well at £450+ I think the only ones they are helping are their own pockets.

Do you believe that women who cannot cope with raising a Downs Syndrome child or cope with having to give that handicapped child up for adoption should be forced to go to full term with that pregnancy?

I am well aware than many women have the strength to do that and that Downs Syndrome children can live full and happy lives but many other women do not have that strength and their Downs Syndrome children do not have happy lives. In their situation they choose to have an abortion.

Even mothers who one would expect to be able to bring "ordinary" healthy babies into the world simply cannot cope and they choose to have abortions also. That is also their choice.

If you believe that women should have no choice whatsoever you are entering a disturbing realm in which women would have to detained against their will and physically coerced into having children against their will.
The most extreme elements of the anti-abortion movement believe women should jailed for murder if they have abortions or attempted murder if they seek abortions. Some in the US advocate the death penalty.

You do realize that forcing women to have babies against their will would require the establishment of a totalitarian state?

Is that what you want?

eviltwin

ehcocmeo wrote: »

So you are ok with Marie Stopes as an organisation.. Whose patron was a Hitler sympathiser and who called Jews "A curse"?

And when they are making money from abortion.. I really can't see how this is helping.

as for not aborting Down Syndrome Babies in Northern Ireland.. they will just refer women to their Clinics in England.

I don't have a problem with them, how long is she dead? Do you not think its reasonable to expect that over time the focus of the clinics have changed? Do you think Irish schools should boycott books published by Folens? After all their founder was a Nazi sympathiser too.

They are a business, if they offered abortions for free how long do you think it would be before they had to close the doors? They have to pay for staff, insurance etc. That all costs money. Of course they have to charge for it.

Yep they will indeed refer women to clinics in the UK, if you get so far as to call them. Chances are if your baby is diagnosed with Downs here your maternity hospital will tell you termination is available in the UK. Its a choice. Many women go on to have their Downs babies, no one is forcing them to have abortions.

eviltwin

When you see the struggle of parents with special needs kids and the way they are treated by the Government can you blame people for thinking abortion is the best option?

Our government want to force people to have babies no matter what conditions they will be born with but once they are here you are on your own. Where are the pro lifers then when a child is losing a SN assistant or needs medical equipment their parents can't afford or when the parents are running themselves into the ground because they need respite?

sambuka41

eviltwin wrote: »

Where are the pro lifers then when a child is losing a SN assistant or needs medical equipment their parents can't afford or when the parents are running themselves into the ground because they need respite?

This is exactly the problem, where are they when the child is born? They are spending their Saturdays handing out leaflets on Grafton Street, or standing outside a clinic in Belfast; when they could be volunteering with after school programmes for children in disadvantaged areas, or fundraising for Barnardos or ISPCC.

I would put money on it that the hard-line protesters are not doing any of these things because they would have far more compassion for the position that some women find themselves in; and they would appreciate better the IMPLICATIONS of some women having been forced to keep a baby they didn't want, because there were no options for her, and they'd see the abuse that some children suffer because they were brought into situations where no one involved could handle it.

No they'll stay sheltered to the realities of neglect and do nothing to help improve the lives of people who's souls they are trying to save, other than stand outside a building and moan. :rolleyes:

eviltwin

If "life" is so important to them why don't they protest outside fertility clinics? They are up in arms about an abortion clinic opening in another jurisdiction but seem okay with embryos being destroyed here.

loveisdivine

This whole "Marie Stopes was an evil Nazi sympathiser" line is getting right on my nerves.

Should we condemn all Germans? because lets face it, I'm sure a good lot of them have Nazi sympathisers in their ancestry.

MissFlitworth

loveisdivine wrote: »

This whole "Marie Stopes was an evil Nazi sympathiser" line is getting right on my nerves.

Should we condemn all Germans? because lets face it, I'm sure a good lot of them have Nazi sympathisers in their ancestry.

Totally. Plenty of descendants of Nazi sympathisers here as well. Wasn't it Oliver J Flanagan whose first speech in the Dáil involved praising Germany for routing out the Jews and made mention of them 'crucifying our Saviour'. I think people who are banging on about Marie Stopes and her belief in eugenics and disgust for mixed race people & Jewish people would be made very uncomfortable should they be able to go back in time and have a discussion with their own great grandparents.

MagicMarker

Yeah I'm unsure of the line of reasoning being used by some folks here. Would they be happier if they changed the name to the Ronald McDonald Abortion Clinic?

I couldn't give a toss who Maries Stopes was or if she used to polish Hitlers helmet. It's bears zero relevance to what's going on in the world today.

loveisdivine

MagicMarker wrote: »

It's bears zero relevance to what's going on in the world today.

Much like most pro life arguments.

Lingua Franca

ehcocmeo wrote: »

Sorry if this post seems like semi Spamming.. But some Facts who Marie Stopes before you go rushing to defend this organisation --> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81296595&postcount=22

Hi there! Nice post, and definitely worthy of Godwinning around. You're sure zinging those pro choicers with that rock solid connection to Hitler!

You missed a few wee facts, though.

1. Marie Stopes was anti abortion.

2. The pro life movement has current direct connections to fascists. (4 links there, enjoy)

3. If you think that the name "Marie Stopes International" is a connection to Hitler then I really hope you've never bought any clothes or products from Hugo Boss, insurance from Allianz, medication from Bayer, driven a Ford, used an IBM computer or a Seimens phone or drank a Fanta, because if you have then you are a Nazi.


If we are to follow your reasoning, there can be no doubt that pro life = fascism.

Thank you very much for bringing this to our attention.

meeeeh

skinny1980 wrote: »

A woman was recently jailed for illegally self-aborting in England with pills she bought online - as if she had no right to do as she liked with her own body!
.

I suspect this is not the whole story and abortion is perfectly legal in England, so it's not exactly hard to get one done. But even if se wasn't outside legal limits, I agree with punishment. It might stop some more idiots selfmedicating over internet. That is just as a side point.

As for those protestors that insist on camping in front of clinics, social welfare should send their inspectors to check if any dole recipients are to busy to protest to be looking for a job.

Frogeye

skinny1980 wrote: »

A woman was recently jailed for illegally self-aborting in England with pills she bought online - as if she had no right to do as she liked with her own body!


You can expect this mob to get more violent and extreme as abortion becomes more available.

The woman self aborted a week before her due date:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/uk-woman-jailed-for-selfabortion-20120918-2630k.html

as for getting more violent: America tends to have extremes in every walk of life so I don't think it is a good comparison. Open to correction on this: but I don't believe anti abortion violence is common in UK and abortion is widely available here. I certainly have never heard of a case.

Those people have the right to protest and you have the right not to like it. Not sure it is fair to predict violence.

skinny1980

Frogeye wrote: »

The woman self aborted a week before her due date:

So what? It's her choice and her body.

as for getting more violent: America tends to have extremes in every walk of life so I don't think it is a good comparison. Open to correction on this: but I don't believe anti abortion violence is common in UK and abortion is widely available here. I certainly have never heard of a case.

The ultimate aim of the anti-abortion movement is violent - forcing women to have babies and jail women for life for murder if they have abortions.

Those people have the right to protest and you have the right not to like it. Not sure it is fair to predict violence

If the people start off from a position where they think it is right to coerce women into having children against their will that means they have totalitarian mindset and violence is not far away from their thinking.

MagicMarker

skinny1980 wrote: »

So what? It's her choice and her body.

iguana

eviltwin wrote: »

As for the cost, its a private clinic, abortion is free on the NHS but those NI laws don't allow that service to extend to the north. As a private clinic of course you have to pay. They have overheads like any business. Its a pity its not free or cheaper but its cheaper than many of Uk clinics.

Just to clarify, they aren't a private business they are a registered charity. They aren't a profit making business. Any extra that is made from abortions is channelled back into the organisation, for example MS clinics in England offer a specialised, cheaper service for women who have to travel from Ireland as they know those women have to add travelling and accommodation costs to their abortions.

They also run developing world clinics where they provide family planning, abortions, maternity care and STI/HIV treatment and prevention clinics. http://www.mariestopes.org/what-we-do

Chimpokomon

skinny1980 wrote: »

So what? It's her choice and her body.

...
The ultimate aim of the anti-abortion movement is violent -

Yet you see nothing wrong with aborting a week before due date? A week?!

Proof if any were needed that there are nutjobs on both sides. How anyone can actually defend this act is genuinely scary. What in your opinion is the difference between aborting a week before birth and murdering a newborn?

skinny1980

Chimpokomon wrote: »

skinny1980 wrote: »

Yet you see nothing wrong with aborting a week before due date? A week?!

Proof if any were needed that there are nutjobs on both sides. How anyone can actually defend this act is genuinely scary. What in your opinion is the difference between aborting a week before birth and murdering a newborn?

If a woman wants an abortion the day before the baby is due there should be nothing stopping her if she so wishes.
What do you propose to do with women seeking abortions?
Locking them up in padded cells strapped to a trolley to force them to have their babies?
As I see it, a woman's choice trumps every other consideration.
Anything else is outright tyranny.

skinny1980

MagicMarker wrote: »

I am serious.
If a woman wants to have an abortion at anytime in her pregnancy and for any reason it is her choice and nobody else should be allowed to interfere.
It is not the business of anyone but her alone what she does with her own body.

iguana

skinny1980 wrote: »

If a woman wants an abortion the day before the baby is due there should be nothing stopping her if she so wishes.
What do you propose to do with women seeking abortions?
Locking them up in padded cells strapped to a trolley to force them to have their babies?
As I see it, a woman's choice trumps every other consideration.
Anything else is outright tyranny.

At 39 weeks pregnant, if she'd made her position clear to her NHS maternity service it would have been possible to schedule an induction or elective c-section, even before 39 weeks. That woman was quite clearly very messed up (looking at her previous history as well as that particular incident) and really shouldn't be used as an example of a woman making a choice as tbh, I don't believe she was compos mentis.

However she shouldn't have been prosecuted and jailed, she should been given proper psychiatric care.

Frogeye

skinny1980 wrote: »

So what? It's her choice and her body..

I think you made my point for me here. Thank you.

The ultimate aim of the anti-abortion movement is violent - forcing women to have babies and jail women for life for murder if they have abortions

By that logic ( and I am not saying this is my belief) you could equally argue that the ultimate aim of the pro abortion is violent: they are the ones after all that want to " kill babies".

If the people start off from a position where they think it is right to coerce women into having children against their will that means they have totalitarian mindset and violence is not far away from their thinking.

I think you are once again making giant leaps in logic here. I think what you might find is that these people believe in "life" and are trying to stop what they see as "murder" and are having a peaceful , if perhaps tasteless, protest. I still don't see the connection to violence on their side and to suggest such things is not really helping the debate

skinny1980

Frogeye wrote: »

skinny1980 wrote: »

I think you made my point for me here. Thank you.


By that logic ( and I am not saying this is my belief) you could equally argue that the ultimate aim of the pro abortion is violent: they are the ones after all that want to " kill babies".



I think you are once again making giant leaps in logic here. I think what you might find is that these people believe in "life" and are trying to stop what they see as "murder" and are having a peaceful , if perhaps tasteless, protest. I still don't see the connection to violence on their side and to suggest such things is not really helping the debate

They had their way would set up a state with which women are detained and imprisoned for exercising their right to choose. That mindset is violently anti-freedom and fascist.

Wibbs

Chimpokomon wrote: »

Yet you see nothing wrong with aborting a week before due date? A week?!

Proof if any were needed that there are nutjobs on both sides. How anyone can actually defend this act is genuinely scary. What in your opinion is the difference between aborting a week before birth and murdering a newborn?

Indeed. Many people are born slightly early, a week early wouldn't be unusual at all. So killing a perfectly healthy and full term baby is OK? Jesus. I suspect the difference is that one is in the woman's body so by the posters logic is fair game, but the other isn't so killing a newborn would be reprehensible. Utterly and completely daft.

eviltwin

skinny1980 wrote: »

Frogeye wrote: »

They had their way would set up a state with which women are detained and imprisoned for exercising their right to choose. That mindset is violently anti-freedom and fascist.

Where are you getting this from? I know a few people in the pro-life camp and they would laugh at this suggestion.

awec

This post has been deleted.

skinny1980

awec wrote: »

This "can do what she wants with her body" is absolute rubbish anyway. You can't go out and fill your body with Class A drugs. You can't go out and sell your body on the street. There are plenty of things you can't do with your body.

Not sure if the poster who said "so what" to a 39 week abortion is trolling or not. I'm pretty sure they are, seeing as words like "tyranny" are being thrown about. I'd be pro-choice but 39 weeks is ridiculous.

So you think a woman should be forced against her will to have a child she does not want? So she is about to have the abortion performed and what should happen? Armed police should storm the clinic shoot the doctors if they do not stop the procedure drag her out screaming and chain her to a trolley in a detention facility and force her to go to go through with having the kid?:mad: And I suppose jail her for attempted murder after the baby is born too?

MagicMarker

skinny1980 wrote: »

So you think a woman should be forced against her will to have a child she does not want? So she is about to have abortion performed and what should happen? Armed police should storm the clinic shoot the doctors if they do not stop the procedure drag her out screaming and chain her to a trolley in a detention facility and force her to go to go through with having the kid?:mad: And I suppose jail her for attempted murder after the baby is born too?

I still don't understand if you're taking the piss or if you're just drunk.

Pembily

skinny1980 wrote: »

So you think a woman should be forced against her will to have a child she does not want? So she is about to have abortion room performed and what should happen? Armed police should storm the clinic shoot the doctors, drag her out screaming and chain her to a trolley in a detention facility and force her to go to go through with having the kid?:mad: And I suppose jail her for attempted murder after the baby is born too?

She had months to make a decision.

skinny1980

MagicMarker wrote: »

I still don't understand if you're taking the piss or if you're just drunk.

Anti-abortion fanatics think abortion is murder don't they? I would have to assume they would force women to have babies and they would throw them in jail for attempted murder if they sought an abortion wouldn't they if they had the power to do so? In America many anti-abortion fanatics seriously advocate executing women and their accomplices.