Could passengers land a passenger jet?

IngazZagni

smurfjed wrote: »

Thanks for that, i was looking at their webpage..... It looks like a classic. I guess that its not based on the real sim.

smurfjed

They used to have a 737 classic but replaced it with the mentioned fixed base sim.

Bearcat

The thread is becoming a big armchair pilot tug-athon.

eatmyshorts

bluecode wrote: »

.. I know wherof I speak as I did jump into forklift...........and speared a pallet full of hairspray. A rather smelly mistake but at least no one died.

But it left you looking fab-u-lous!!:D

xoxyx

Great thread!!

Out of interest, if a scenario arose where the pilots became incapacitated and a lay passenger managed to get them out of their seats, settled themselves in, and managed to contact somebody in ATC - what would they be told to do?

Let's say they're flying over a large, densely populated body of land. The fuel is relatively low. I'm assuming they'd be directed to try and head somewhere where they could crash without landing on top of a busy industrial estate. But, what if they couldn't operate the controls, or fecked up entirely and sent themselves on a path that could end with them crashing in the middle of a city?

Or, what if they were told how to head towards the ocean, but they panicked at the thought of that and headed towards where they thought the airport was, in the hope of miraculously landing and saving their arses?

Basically, what would happen if a non-pilot had to take control of an aircraft and it looked like their actions would result in a devastating crash which would not only kill the passengers of the plane, but, also, a large number of people on the ground?

IngazZagni

I guess they could very well be shot down. That is if either they dont contact atc or dont follow their instructions and fly towards a populated area. Then they may think it's a hijacking.

boeingboy

Dream on guys.

The only time a "passenger" will ever fly a real live passenger airliner will/is on a P2F scheme, where he/she is only in the cockpit coz theyve paid for the priviledge.
Theyre the most important paxs!!!

IngazZagni

boeingboy wrote: »

Dream on guys.

The only time a "passenger" will ever fly a real live passenger airliner will/is on a P2F scheme, where he/she is only in the cockpit coz theyve paid for the priviledge.
Theyre the most important paxs!!!

Jeez boeingboy. Do you have a hangover or something? Don't need to get mad. It's just a "what if" thread, bit of light discussion.

pclancy

I like the sim competition idea.

Could contact Simtech and see would they do a good rate for an afternoon or something where 5-10 people can rock up and try one approach each to an airport and they record the outcomes.

See can anyone get the airplane stopped on the runway at dublin in a survivable state.

Strict conditions such as:

Everyone starts 100 miles from threshold, crusing at 30,000, autopilot on VNAV/LNAV
An average winter day wind and cloud set for the approach
ATC available to provide aiport direction and some very basic help
Charts, checklists and the system guides in book or pdf to be able to be read out to you by your hostess who has let you in the cockpit
Enough fuel for one approach only

We could have one session for PPLs/Simmers and one for people with ZERO experience to compare.

Once its done we finally have an answer to the old boards.ie A&A forum question of "Could passengers land a passenger jet" once and for all.

knucklehead6

pclancy wrote: »

I like the sim competition idea.

Could contact Simtech and see would they do a good rate for an afternoon or something where 5-10 people can rock up and try one approach each to an airport and they record the outcomes.

See can anyone get the airplane stopped on the runway at dublin in a survivable state.

Strict conditions such as:

Everyone starts 100 miles from threshold, crusing at 30,000, autopilot on VNAV/LNAV
An average winter day wind and cloud set for the approach
ATC available to provide aiport direction and some very basic help
Charts, checklists and the system guides in book or pdf to be able to be read out to you by your hostess who has let you in the cockpit
Enough fuel for one approach only

We could have one session for PPLs/Simmers and one for people with ZERO experience to compare.

Once its done we finally have an answer to the old boards.ie A&A forum question of "Could passengers land a passenger jet" once and for all.

Add in a few beers afterwards and make it the inaugural A&A Beers night!!

Jimmy444

And to add to the pressure someone should video all attempts and post on Youtube so we can all watch you
flying your sim straight to the scene of the accident

LeftBase

pclancy wrote: »

I like the sim competition idea.

Could contact Simtech and see would they do a good rate for an afternoon or something where 5-10 people can rock up and try one approach each to an airport and they record the outcomes.

See can anyone get the airplane stopped on the runway at dublin in a survivable state.

Strict conditions such as:

Everyone starts 100 miles from threshold, crusing at 30,000, autopilot on VNAV/LNAV
An average winter day wind and cloud set for the approach
ATC available to provide aiport direction and some very basic help
Charts, checklists and the system guides in book or pdf to be able to be read out to you by your hostess who has let you in the cockpit
Enough fuel for one approach only

We could have one session for PPLs/Simmers and one for people with ZERO experience to compare.

Once its done we finally have an answer to the old boards.ie A&A forum question of "Could passengers land a passenger jet" once and for all.

I like the idea of that and would love to be present to watch(and perhaps act as a ringer) but I doubt I'd get the time off.

One of the factors in the Mythbusters scenario that irked me was that an experienced pilot talked them down. As we all know ATS units keep experienced pilots on call 24/7....:rolleyes:

A common set up would be good. I have a fair idea of most of the issues that may crop up however. From 100 miles out an inexperianced pilot who is not used to using a trim system will have a very sore arm too!;)

bluecode

That's good idea for the sim. Also make the sim is set for a fully loaded aircraft not practically empty as they tend to for fun customers. There should also be no clue as to where the event takes place. Also the Simtech trainer can be configured for number of types. That should be kept secret too.

It would be great fun and could once and for all nail the issue.

pclancy

Right watch this space.

andy_g

Im up for this make sure if it goes ahead it a boeing AC there Pclancy

deandean

Excellent! Be prepared for a few questions with the sim guys..."hello, a group of us would like to rent sim time. We don't need to practice take-offs, our sessions will start in mid flight. And don't worry if we are crashing a lot" :O

LeftBase

deandean wrote: »

Excellent! Be prepared for a few questions with the sim guys..."hello, a group of us would like to rent sim time. We don't need to practice take-offs, our sessions will start in mid flight. And don't worry if we are crashing a lot" :O

The fixed base sim in Simtech doesn't not like crashing might I add. It makes a dreadfully piercing "red alert" noise when you do!

When I was doing my MCC we set up to land on Dublin's 28 with wind 190/35G50kt, one engine out and almost zero vis. Obviously well beyond any sensible weather for landing but we wanted to give it a crack. A few of us made it in......a few didn't....

Cork boy 55

Could a rouge cabin crew member poison the flight crew?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBlue_flight_attendant_incident

Tenger

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Could a rouge cabin crew member poison the flight crew?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBlue_flight_attendant_incident

Not sure what you meant by 'rouge cabin crew' but yes disgruntled crew could do so in theory, but then they would be the qualified medical responders to assist............oh good plan!




It seems the debate has been resolved*:
http://www.newstalk.ie/Passenger-lands-Boeing-747-in-emergency-at-Dublin-Airport

(*this statement ignore the 'passengers' current flight crew training, the presence of the captain on the flight deck, and the non-emergency diversion due crew incapacition)

jmayo

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Other scenarios

A pilot going insane and committing murder/suicide of the flight crew

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48064941/ns/travel-news/t/texas-judge-finds-jetblue-pilot-insane-not-guilty/


A sky Marshall committing murder/suicide of the flight crew

Somebody taking a sky Marshall weapon and committing murder/suicide of the flight crew

Actually there was an incident of a Fedex DC10 cargo plane where a pilot/flight engineer deadheaded and attacked the crew with claw and sledge hammers (also had a speargun in his guitar case) because he wanted to crash the plane so his family could claim 2.5 million in life insurance.
He was under investigation for falsfying his flight records.

BTW the crew never flew professionally again due to their injuries wheras the guy got two lfie sentences.

As for this thread and taking over from an incapicated airline flight crew.
I think the poster in post 54 laid out one of the initial biggest problems which would apply to even a trained airline pilot and that is the extraction of the flight crew.

Imagine trying to drag out a couple of 15 or 16 plus stone guys from their seats and even worse at the same time trying to ensure nothing was touched.
BTW not saying that all airline pilots are big feckers or a tad overweight.

Of course a trained pilot would then know, or at least have an idea even if they were not type rated on that aircraft, how to get in contact with ATC and set up the aircraft for descent.

Anyone else would be left wondering if they had hit something during the extraction process.

No.username

It actually happened yesterday at Dublin! Bit over dramatic journalism but technically he was a passenger.

http://m.brne.ws/ireland/hero-passenger-helped-land-plane-at-dublin-airport-574862.html

Edit: Whoops, just saw the post two above me, sorry.

Cork boy 55

jmayo wrote: »

Actually there was an incident of a Fedex DC10 cargo plane where a pilot/flight engineer deadheaded and attacked the crew with claw and sledge hammers (also had a speargun in his guitar case) because he wanted to crash the plane so his family could claim 2.5 million in life insurance.
He was under investigation for falsfying his flight records.

BTW the crew never flew professionally again due to their injuries wheras the guy got two lfie sentences.

They made a mayday episode out of that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaOn1u8wIT0

jmayo wrote: »

As for this thread and taking over from an incapicated airline flight crew.
I think the poster in post 54 laid out one of the initial biggest problems which would apply to even a trained airline pilot and that is the extraction of the flight crew.

Imagine trying to drag out a couple of 15 or 16 plus stone guys from their seats and even worse at the same time trying to ensure nothing was touched.
BTW not saying that all airline pilots are big feckers or a tad overweight.

Of course a trained pilot would then know, or at least have an idea even if they were not type rated on that aircraft, how to get in contact with ATC and set up the aircraft for descent.

Anyone else would be left wondering if they had hit something during the extraction process.

Seats Can be adjusted down I saw before on TV

It's quite possible in the scenario the flight crew all already out of their seats as they get sick or whatever or like on 911 on they where ordered out

Tenger

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

......It's quite possible in the scenario the flight crew all already out of their seats as they get sick or whatever or like on 911 on they where ordered out

Err....... what? Oh so all those planes landed themselves on that chaotic day?

Cork boy 55

Tenger wrote: »

Err....... what? Oh so all those planes landed themselves on that chaotic day?

I am saying that many scenarios involving flight crew incapacitation don't involve them dropping dead in place in their seats.

Tenger

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

I am saying that many scenarios involving flight crew incapacitation don't involve them dropping dead in place in their seats.

You seem to be missing the comment by you that I referred to....here it is again...

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

......It's quite possible in the scenario the flight crew all already out of their seats as they get sick or whatever or like on 911 on they where ordered out

Cork boy 55

Tenger wrote: »

You seem to be missing the comment by you that I referred to....here it is again...

It's possible on 911 especially on flight 93 that the passengers
could have regained control of the flight after the flight crew had been killed (out of their seats) albeit very unlikely.
In that scenario you would have a flight crew incapacitated and their bodies not in their seats and the passengers and cabin crew "flying" the plane.

Calibos

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

It's possible on 911 especially on flight 93 that the passengers
could have regained control of the flight after the flight crew had been killed (out of their seats) albeit very unlikely.
In that scenario you would have a flight crew incapacitated and their bodies not in their seats and the passengers and cabin crew "flying" the plane.

I don't think you've thought this one through fully Cork boy 55.....




















You wouldn't have to remove the bodies of the flight crew of flight 93. You'd have to remove the bodies of the Terrorists instead.........:eek:

martinsvi

I guess guys in Lithuania proved the point - an amateur was only successful at her fifth attempt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkOT3fbc1O4

P.S. Let's not discuss their English, this is not a linguistics forum

LLU

martinsvi wrote: »

I guess guys in Lithuania proved the point - an amateur was only successful at her fifth attempt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkOT3fbc1O4

P.S. Let's not discuss their English, this is not a linguistics forum

Well it has to be said their English is practically flawless, but for some reason I keep picturing the scoring part of a Eurovision song contest!

An excellent find though, thanks for sharing.

el tel

Non-trained civilian landing a passenger jet with external instruction?

Sorry, negatory.

Jimmy444

LLU wrote: »

An excellent find though, thanks for sharing.

HEY! I found Natalja first! Keep your hands off! See post 60