Could passengers land a passenger jet?

Xpro wrote: »

Private pilot landing an airliner:cool:

It can be done. I would like to see the video of the kid landing the 737. I was fortunate enough to get to fly in 737, A320 and 767 sims and did manage to land them all manually (with a bit of aircraft knowledge of the instruments systems etc). Much easier with the auto land tho, a full manual approach on any large airliner is hard work for anybody.

basill wrote: »

I hate to rain on the flight simmers parade however...........

By the time that Sally realises we have both become incapacitated then more than likely it is to late. But assuming that luck is on your side and we become incapacitated whilst in the cruise with loads of fuel and the automatics working as they should with a perfectly serviceable aircraft then you have to consider:-

- how do you plan on lifting out the dead weight of one or both of us from our seats? You can't land a modern jet from a jump seat or crouching down behind the centre console.
- in order to get us out you must be awfully careful not to bump anything or deselect any radio frequency
- assuming you get us out and you strap yourself in then presumably you will need to know how to operate the radios. The cabin crew if you are very lucky might be able to make an educated guess as to which knobs to push but more than likely won't have the foggiest
- if you do get in contact with someone, what is our callsign? Whats our squawk, maybe you will get lucky and ATC will have direction finding equipment so will quickly be able to locate your position
- but where will you land and how will you descend? How much fuel do we have left and how do you find it out? How much do you need to land safely at xyz airport?
- how will you engage the aircraft into autoland mode? ATC won't have a clue how to fly the aircraft - it isn't their job and they don't do a type rating for it. You might get lucky and find a guardian angel flying in the same airspace on the same frequency that might be able to talk you down but maybe not.
- then what about after you land, assuming you managed to do an autoland without disconnecting anything prematurely and departing the runway or missing it altogether. So how do you come to a stop, where are the brakes? How do you shut down the engines? You can't go down the escape slides with the engines running as they tend to suck up things.

All in all the odds are greatly stacked up against you. Best hope there is a rated pilot on board going on their holidays.

As a matter of fact the concept of yanking the "incapacitated pilots" from the seats is the biggest challenge - it requires an enormous amount of effort and the risk of knocking controls around and even disengage the AP is very high.

Other than that, you are considering the scenario of the completely oblivious person trying to get a grasp on the plane controls. I seriously hope that in an emergency the average Joe and Jane, who don't even know what type of plane their arses is sitting on, would just stay put and cry rather than make their way to the cockpit.

Somebody that is any well into flight simulation, however, will very likely know the airline callsign and the flight number, will be able to identify the radio panel and locate the PTT buttons, read the squawk code and communicate with the ATC. Odds are that he/she will also have a general level familiarity with the autopilot system and might well be able to "disengage" the FMC and guide the plane on a descent using the AP parameters; As a matter of fact, there's a big chanche he/she will be able to get down to final approach, stabilized on the ILS and with a basic landing configuration (speed, flaps, gear down, autobrake). If he/she has a faint idea about how to engage the autoland functionality, then they do stand a chance to make it.
Afterall, there are countless examples of flight sim enthusiasts that were able to land a training-grade flight simulator at their first attempt.

Of course, this is in the the "extremely lucky" scenario: broad daylight with no rain, fog nor wind, suitable airport in the vicinity with ILS and a long runway, no faults within the plane itself; It is not considering the stress factor and, most importantly, this is not considering the fact that the "flight simmer" will not be used to the way the real plane reacts to control inputs - making a "stick in hand" landing a far fetched idea.

So, in conclusion:
Average Joe/Jane trying to land - fiery death;
Flight Sim Enthusiast - stand some chance to walk away from it;

Bearcat wrote: »

I'm tired of this self appreciating run of we can do it stuff......yes you might get to the greater surrounding of the airport but flying an airliner on a finite vertical and lateral trajectory and landing it(not crashing it) on the 1000 foot mark takes a lot of training an d experience. 200 hour cadets can do as they are cocooned in the comfort that beside them is an experienced captain.

Take all that training away and put joe public at the top of descent and "say joe, she all yours" .........not a chance.

I'm 15000hrs into the game and I'm still honing my skills.

So I say to the "it can be done brigade" a large Bullsh€T

Yep....id be pretty surprised if anyone who says its possible has actually ever flown an airliner. For the average PPL holder i give around 1/1000 chance. Flight simmer 0/1000 chance. And for the average Joe I bet they run out of fuel before they even figure out how to use the microphone.

Bearcat wrote: »

I'm tired of this self appreciating run of we can do it stuff......yes you might get to the greater surrounding of the airport but flying an airliner on a finite vertical and lateral trajectory and landing it(not crashing it) on the 1000 foot mark takes a lot of training an d experience. 200 hour cadets can do as they are cocooned in the comfort that beside them is an experienced captain.

Take all that training away and put joe public at the top of descent and "say joe, she all yours" .........not a chance.

I'm 15000hrs into the game and I'm still honing my skills.

So I say to the "it can be done brigade" a large Bullsh€T

15,000 hours is a long time to be honing your skills, perhaps that's why you are so tired!! (I hope you see the humour in that).

I was speaking about bringing the aircraft in on auto pilot with all going well and someone of knowledge to give the instructions to whoever is flying. As you say it is highly unlikely that a manual landing would be successful (although not impossible). It wasn't a dig at pilots and the immense amount of training that they put in to get where they are.

There is evidence to suggest that it can be done in the right circumstances etc etc, so it's incorrect of you to dismiss it as Bullsh1t.

jill_valentine wrote: »

Out of interest, do cabin crew get any contingency training just in case the Airplane! scenario strikes?

Nope....a good cabin crew member should know the emergency features of the cabin inside out. But even after 20000 hours in the cabin of the same aircraft will not have a clue of the workings of the cockpit.

Every now and then this debate comes back up and its always the same. The flight simmers and PPLs reckon they have a fighting chance but the real pilots laugh them out of it. I'm sticking firmly with the view of anyone in either seat without stripes on their shoulder is going to leave the aircraft in several thousand pieces. Its just not possible without a lot of practice and in once of these emergency scenarios you're only going to have one shot and probably no chance at going around if you mess up.

Those of you with PPLs, remember how wobbly your first few landings were and how long it took to perfect your energy management during approach and how to flare nicely without ripping either the tail or the prop off. Now multiply that effort by several thousand considering your new aircraft has a lot more weight and power then your Cessna and that the time you have to float down the runway is going to be minimal.

Its every simmers dream to run up to the cockpit and casually land a 737 just like they do in FSX after hours of playiing with the PMDG model but no home computer can replicate the sensations and forces at work, not to mention the outside forces such as weather.

pclancy wrote: »

Every now and then this debate comes back up and its always the same. The flight simmers and PPLs reckon they have a fighting chance but the real pilots laugh them out of it. I'm sticking firmly with the view of anyone in either seat without stripes on their shoulder is going to leave the aircraft in several thousand pieces. Its just not possible without a lot of practice and in once of these emergency scenarios you're only going to have one shot and probably no chance at going around if you mess up.

Those of you with PPLs, remember how wobbly your first few landings were and how long it took to perfect your energy management during approach and how to flare nicely without ripping either the tail or the prop off. Now multiply that effort by several thousand considering your new aircraft has a lot more weight and power then your Cessna and that the time you have to float down the runway is going to be minimal.

Its every simmers dream to run up to the cockpit and casually land a 737 just like they do in FSX after hours of playiing with the PMDG model but no home computer can replicate the sensations and forces at work, not to mention the outside forces such as weather.

And all of these are extremely valid points. Still, in an hypotetical and nearly impossible scenario of perfect conditions, clear weather and a bit of luck, I wouldn't say it's impossible.

See, the fault I find in the pilot's reasoning is the assumption that the person at the controls knows zero about the cockpit itself. Think about the clip of "lovely Nataljia" somebody posted, that's the scenario they figure - somebody completely out of their depth. The autopilot disengages, she has no idea what the fancy alarm is; the plane starts going to the left and she does nothing; she has no idea about where the gear lever is and so on.

What I would like to see as a reply, is what would make the task of just getting the bird on the ground without blowing it up so impossible for somebody that has an understanding of the cockpit, a general knowledge of how a plane works, how to operate the autopilot on a basic level and basic landing procedure.

If the answer is "the plane behaves nothing like a simulator", "the ground effect is tricky because..." etc., well that's exactly what I'm looking for. Facts, technical stuff especially welcome, not the assumptions that nobody can understand a thing and should just shut up.

Also, it would be interesting to know how they explain the fact that there are people that, with no experience whatsoever, manage to land at their first attempt in the training simulators - the real deal, not the "cockpit mockup attached to FS2004" commercial things.

See guys, I don't think anybody here is trying to lessen nor belittle the role of an airline pilot, quite the contrary. Nobody is saying that an "amateur" could land a 737 or an A320 with an engine out, at night, on a short runway, in blinding rain and near-limit crosswinds. That's what the people with the stripes have the training, the experience and the steel balls (figuratively in the case of the ladies, of course!) for.

If this thread is going on is because some of us "armchair pilots" would really like to know from the guys that are up to it what the real deal is, how much harder is it than a "pixel landing" and what exactly is different. Other than that, we'll be more than happy to just sit in economy and look out of the window, wondering if the STAR the sim had us fly last night was any accurate

I'm not a pixel pilot, and i don't wear stripes.

I sat in the cockpit of an Aer Lingus 737 on the ground at Cork Airport as a kid the guts of 30 years ago and that about as close as i've been since!

I would LOVE to have a go at that, just purely to prove to the rest of us how badly someone with an interest in aviation, but no practice would do.

I'd be on for it!

amen wrote: »

Not a pilot but a simmer and I am confident I could land the plane fairly intact and in one piece. Everyone talks about weather effects, the feel of the real plane etc but if you are at 30,000 when you take over you have some time (not a lot) to figure some things out and get some sort of feel for how the plane handles.

I'm am not putting down real pilots but you have to remember that during WWII (last major war) there were 10,000s of people trained as pilots. This suggests that there are many people with the skills, talent and ability to become pilots.

Over the last 30 years the cost of training has become a big factor preventing many people from training and thus leading to a smaller group of qualified pilots. That doesn't mean that other non trained pilots People couldn't land the plane.

hate doing these but, FYP

These threads are so stupid but I'll contribute anyway.

There are so many variables that it's impossible to say what would happen for sure.
A point I want to make that I don't think has been made is the difference between operating a multi million euro full motion level D sim and the real thing. Under normal circumstances it replicates the experience almost perfectly. But not always when it comes to non normal events. I'm mainly talking about how YOU would react in such a circumstance. There is a comfort when operating a sim knowing that if something goes wrong you will be ok but when in the real thing, you know the consequences could be fatal. That point alone is enough to make someone freeze and forget everything they've learnt even for an experienced pilot. For someone that is not experienced it could be an even bigger shock and increase the chance of you not being able to cope with the situation.

I'm up for sim despite the fact that it won't prove anything, because in real-life the level of stress would not allow me to focus or make reasonable decisions.. in fact, I probably would be too scared to leave my passenger seat...

experience - none, just msfs2004

if it's happening, PM me, but it has to be on weekend or bank holiday.

smurfjed wrote: »

Well lads, here is the opportunity, google "simtech" and you will find details on gift vouchers for trial flights. Prepare your scenario starting with how to get the crew out of the seats. Considering that they have a B737 classic, I wish you the best of luck!

smurfjed

Simtech's fixed base sim is a 737/A320 hybrid cockpit because it's primary pro pilot use is MCCs and so students get used to the characteristics of both aircraft. It has a central control column but a320 displays and an A320 thrust lever layout.