Could passengers land a passenger jet?

Cork boy 55

I was watching the film about united airlines flight 93 recently
the one that crashed on 911 before it hits it target
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_93

Also I say a documentary recently about a plane crash in the USA in 1964 where a guy smuggled a gun on board and executed the flight crew,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Air_Lines_Flight_773

Question?
If a flight crew is taken out or incapacitated could passengers land a modern passenger jet with instruction from the ground and flight manual?

Assuming passengers have little or no flight experience.

IRLConor

For what it's worth, Mythbusters covered this one: http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/db/human-body/alone-remote-wilderness-go-mad.html

Cork boy 55

IRLConor wrote: »

For what it's worth, Mythbusters covered this one: http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/db/human-body/alone-remote-wilderness-go-mad.html

Thanks

Ya they reckon its pausable they failed first time and succeed the second
in a simulator.

I guessing type of plane, flight conditions, the amount of fuel available, and the quality and intelligence the passengers are big factors here.
Someone who was into aviation computer games and simulator would also have a big advantage here.

Would cabin crew be any good at it?

RMD

You also need to take into account how level-headed the person attempting to land it is. In Mythbusters obviously there was no serious repercussions if they didn't successfully land, in reality though they'd likely die. That level of stress and pressure would mess with many people's minds.

Cork boy 55

There has been a few cases of small planes being landed by passengers after pilot gets incapacitated, see link and there is an audio on utube of another one
I don't think there is any case of a passenger jumbo jet being landed.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96248&page=1#.UH4Jo2fYF9w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aetmIch34M4

jill_valentine

RMD wrote: »

You also need to take into account how level-headed the person attempting to land it is. In Mythbusters obviously there was no serious repercussions if they didn't successfully land, in reality though they'd likely die. That level of stress and pressure would mess with many people's minds.

On the other hand, the stakes are higher, so you're not going to be worrying about the lunch meeting tomorrow or whether you remembered to turn the iron off that morning. You're going to be wholly invested in that one thing. It's hard to make a perfect prediction.

I'd say they could, if the stars aligned. At the very least, I think they could probably give at least some of the passengers onboard a fighting chance that they wouldn't have otherwise had.

Bearcat

I say they couldn't......it's not as easy as you think but I am biased;)

jill_valentine

I don't think it would be easy at all, but we're assuming they have perfect flight conditions and help from the ground, right? I think they've got a percentage chance, at least.

Whether they'll get their luggage that day, however...

cyrusdvirus

Bearcat wrote: »

I say they couldn't......it's not as easy as you think but I am biased;)

hehehe..

don't want to have to give up the hat, is it bear?? :P

Bill G

The flight attendant (who held a CPL) tried to gain control of the striken Helios Flight 522, but he either did not have the experience or the time to land it before it ran out of fuel and crashed.

LeftBase

If you had somebody to explain how to set the autoland it would be doable.

Landing it on manual I would say not a hope in hell!

However the great overlooked issue with this "talked down" idea is the fact the passenger must be able to use the radios to do it....which for somebody new to the flight deck would be a challenging task!

afatbollix

Isn't there auto land these days? If you had someone tell you how to turn it on Id say you would have a good chance of getting a bird down.

But sure what do I know... Im just a man on the internet

Dacian

RMD wrote: »

You also need to take into account how level-headed the person attempting to land it is........That level of stress and pressure would mess with many people's minds.

1 aspect of this scenario could very well be a level-headed person stepping up but then being overawed by the sheer complexity of the modern airliner cockpit. While being talked down by ATC would involve as few instruments/switches/levers as possible seeing the cockpit could well cause them to freeze. A small 4 seat Cessna cockpit seems a lot more homely and familiar in comparison. Someone above mentioned cabin crew....well they at least would not be overwhelmed by the cockpit environment.

BuffyBot

Bill G wrote: »

The flight attendant (who held a CPL) tried to gain control of the striken Helios Flight 522, but he either did not have the experience or the time to land it before it ran out of fuel and crashed.

To be fair, he was suffering from pretty severe hypoxia at the time..

bluecode

This is often debated but as it never has happened in an airliner. No one quite knows. The nearest was the Helios accident. The FA had a CPL but he couldn't access the flight deck until the engines failed. By then it was too late.

To be perfectly honest I would seriously doubt my own capability to get it down in one piece and I'm a pilot, non airline, who has 'flown' real simulators.

It probably could be done if all the factors fell right. A clear day plenty of fuel and someone who could remain calm under pressure. But imagine if it was at night and or in bad weather. With minimum fuel. Then there's the circumstances of the crew's incapacitation. Was there a struggle in the cockpit? Is there damage? Depressurisation? Autopilot knocked off. Even if the new 'pilot' figured out the radios. Would ATC have access to a pilot experienced with the aircraft in time?

Even if everything fell right. There's the flying itself. If even experienced airline pilots lose it at times, like AF447. What chance does a complete beginner?

Naturally FSX fans might claim they could do it but all of the factors above apply to them too. Plus the emotional aspect.

I suspect if it ever happened the likely result is a disaster.

squonk

Anyone else think of Airplane! when reading this thread

Happyman42

Are there no regs governing this kind of an eventuality?
Would ATC be allowed to bring something so possibly catastrophic near an airport or built up area? Just wondering.

bluecode

squonk wrote: »

Anyone else think of Airplane! when reading this thread

Don't mention Macho Grande!

Elaine Dickinson: There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

martinsvi

there was this case - http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/May-06-Fri-2005/news/26454926.html

but in modern day aviation if you have dead/unconscious pilots in cockpit - how do you get in to take over the plane? I assume that since 9/11 you can only open them from inside, is that true?

sxt

If Passengers had internet access, this guide might be helpful to them

http://www.wikihow.com/Land-an-Airplane-in-an-Emergency

Momento Mori

With good ground communication and a capable human being, yes.

It would depend on the size of the aircraft though. A 747 possibly not.

A320

martinsvi wrote: »

there was this case - http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/May-06-Fri-2005/news/26454926.html

but in modern day aviation if you have dead/unconscious pilots in cockpit - how do you get in to take over the plane? I assume that since 9/11 you can only open them from inside, is that true?

no there's a keypad to open it with a code,FA's know it,this is time delayed, There's also an emergency code for the door that the FA would know which opens it after a few seconds

McNulty737

Highly unlikely in any modern jet....from cruising altitude even someone with a cpl and no type rating would really struggle with the energy management of a descent, approach and even with an autoland. For someone who had never seen a cockpit to configure flaps, gear and reduce to an acceptable threshold speed and ensure localiser and glide slope capture?

I've seen some cadets on the 737 who are basically passengers totally dependant on the line training captain (and most definately the safety pilot if the captain had a heart attack or something)....and these are guys with CPL, MEIR, MCC, 737 type rating and base training.

So some regular Joe who never even flew a cessna?

Doubtful

Lustrum

I think Leftbase has hit the nail on the head, the biggest stumbling block would be making contact with the ground. Imagine what would be going through your head if you enter a cockpit with both pilots passed out, you can hear voices in their headsets but they can't hear you? I think 99% of people would flip out.

I spend my days at the moment showing people how to fly full motion 747 sims. With help from the ground, I think anyone could get the autoland set up and land. Without help, or without an autoland, I think the professional pilots here will tell you that the ground comes up awful quick from 50ft, and I would imagine the touchdown would be something similar to the crash programme last week - hardly anyone I bring in remembers to flare, even when you're telling them "do it now" as they just freeze. And landing a 747 is completely different to landing a C172, so even PPL holders struggle

smurfjed

One of our passengers regularly lands the aircraft, he also does the takeoff's...... In the middle, he just goes back and relaxes in the cabin!

smurfjed

cml387

Arthur Hailey wrote a TV screenplay (before he was famous ) about a Spitfire pilot who takes over the controls of a plane when the pilots become victims of food poisoning.

It was called Flight Into Danger and you can read the Wikipedia entry yourselves if you're interested.

The plot of Airplane! is of course a similar plot with a slightly different "treatment".

jill_valentine

sxt wrote: »

If Passengers had internet access, this guide might be helpful to them

http://www.wikihow.com/Land-an-Airplane-in-an-Emergency

This idea reminds me of that exchange in Father Ted, where Ted admonishes the writer guy for using a laptop in flight. "But shur we're all going to die anyway." "Fair point."

jill_valentine

Happyman42 wrote: »

Are there no regs governing this kind of an eventuality?
Would ATC be allowed to bring something so possibly catastrophic near an airport or built up area? Just wondering.

There's a point.

Bearcat

smurfjed wrote: »

One of our passengers regularly lands the aircraft, he also does the takeoff's...... In the middle, he just goes back and relaxes in the cabin!

smurfjed

I trust the said individual holds a pilots Licence and is type rated?

Cork boy 55

cml387 wrote: »

Arthur Hailey wrote a TV screenplay (before he was famous ) about a Spitfire pilot who takes over the controls of a plane when the pilots become victims of food poisoning.

It was called Flight Into Danger and you can read the Wikipedia entry yourselves if you're interested.

The plot of Airplane! is of course a similar plot with a slightly different "treatment".

There is the book Mayday as well

A supersonic passenger jet flying over the Pacific Ocean, is struck by an errant missile. Due to the effects of decompression and oxygen deprivation, all but a handful are incapacitated. Three survivors must attempt to land the airplane, despite attempts to cover up the disaster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_%28novel%29

The "pilot" struggle to get to ground in that book is complicated as elements of the military and the airline wanted him to crash into ocean LOL

Pretty good book IIRC

omega man

smurfjed wrote: »

One of our passengers regularly lands the aircraft, he also does the takeoff's...... In the middle, he just goes back and relaxes in the cabin!

smurfjed

The skipper

veetwin

Momento Mori wrote: »

It would depend on the size of the aircraft though. A 747 possibly not.

What has the size of the aircraft got to do with it? Is a 747 inherently more difficult to land than say a 737 or A320?

Dacian

veetwin wrote: »

What has the size of the aircraft got to do with it? Is a 747 inherently more difficult to land than say a 737 or A320?

Technically? Perhaps not.

But the scale of the aircraft (number of other pax) would have an effect on the mental stability of any civilian called upon to do so.


I think I'm going to stick with the theory that it is theoretically possible for a passenger to land a modern airliner. But only in 'perfect' conditions/scenario. Most probably any attempt to do so would end in disaster. Too many chances of mistakes/oversights. Any additional problems relating to weather/night conditions/airport approach/damage to airframe/mental condition of the individual would scupper the attempt.

LeftBase

You cannot underestimate in my opinion the learned skill of elevator for speed and throttle for height/rate of decent. They are both counter intuitive and somebody who had never flown before would find it very hard if not impossible to harness them. As both are the largest components of a manual approach I'm going to say that any chance of a passenger making a manual approach is very very slim. If asked to speed up because they are slow on the approach and they knock the throttle in, the nose pitches up and you may have stall city......talking them through stall recovery at approach altitude would be quite impressive and warrant a special one of a kind LeftBase bought pint.;)

Autoland perhaps.

Joe 90

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

There is the book Mayday as well

A supersonic passenger jet flying over the Pacific Ocean, is struck by an errant missile. Due to the effects of decompression and oxygen deprivation, all but a handful are incapacitated. Three survivors must attempt to land the airplane, despite attempts to cover up the disaster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_%28novel%29

The "pilot" struggle to get to ground in that book is complicated as elements of the military and the airline wanted him to crash into ocean LOL

Pretty good book IIRC

In fact it was originally published under the name of just one of the authors, Thomas Block. He was in fact an airline pilot and for a long time a contributer to Flying magizine.

bluecode

You cannot underestimate in my opinion the learned skill of elevator for speed and throttle for height/rate of decent. They are both counter intuitive and somebody who had never flown before would find it very hard if not impossible to harness them.

Plenty of pilots have the same problem.

If our hero passenger actually managed to get the aircraft into a stabilised approach. The real danger would come when he attempted to correct any deviations. Attempting to correct a low approach by pulling back would just make it worse. Mush straight in. I think even a light aircraft pilot may suffer a similar fate. Their actual experience would work against them.

The last few hundred feet on the approach would be overwhelming.

Milan Cobian

You cannot underestimate in my opinion the learned skill of elevator for speed and throttle for height/rate of decent.

A jet is flown by using pitch to control VS and thrust to control speed. The only exception is open climb/descent (Airbus)/level change (boeing) which is either full climb power or idle thrust with pitch holding the speed.
On approach it'll be pitch to hold the GS and thrust to maintain the speed. Yes, a thrust change will, unless anticipated and controlled, precipitate a VS change but that's a by-product, not a means of controlling VS.

smurfjed

Bearcat.... Yep, he holds the rating and is current, he was also a qualified F15 pilot and has flown as a mission specialist in the space shuttle

smurfjed

boeingboy

Not a chance!

My last company brought Senior cabin crew into the sim on procedure famil days (usually on our Loft exercise) to read the checklist with a pilot incapacitation, and we demonstrated the autoland setup and landing, rollout and stop. They all seem more interested in using the mirror on the inside of the door to reapply makeup!
So I dont think even most if not all could do it without pilot / type training.

they knock the throttle in

Thrust Lever on Jets,

Glad to be back in Europe now on the "light twins", (airline/type change) and impressed with my new companys Vnav approach procedures, with the old Boeings we werent allowed.

Hilarious Thread

Bearcat

smurfjed wrote: »

Bearcat.... Yep, he holds the rating and is current, he was also a qualified F15 pilot and has flown as a mission specialist in the space shuttle

smurfjed

I hope your not telling porkies:D

smurfjed

No porkies :) Easy to prove with wiki

smurfjed

cyrusdvirus

smurfjed wrote: »

No porkies :) Easy to prove with wiki

smurfjed

Ah yes, wiki.... that font of internet impartiality that can only be bested by the mythical salmon of knowledge

LeftBase

boeingboy wrote: »

Thrust Lever on Jets,

Knock the throttle in being a causal term I was using for adding power.

Milan Cobian -

A jet is flown by using pitch to control VS and thrust to control speed. The only exception is open climb/descent (Airbus)/level change (boeing) which is either full climb power or idle thrust with pitch holding the speed.
On approach it'll be pitch to hold the GS and thrust to maintain the speed. Yes, a thrust change will, unless anticipated and controlled, precipitate a VS change but that's a by-product, not a means of controlling VS.

Granted...however the point I am getting at is the need for pitch change with power change or vice versa if you are to fly a stabilised approach and not end up too fast or slow or high or low etc. That takes a few hours at the stick of a jet to get. Guys with 250h+ on SEP/MEP aircraft still make a reasonable bags of it in base training!

God help our passenger!

A320

boeingboy wrote: »

Not a chance!

Thrust Lever on Jets,

I was always told that a Throttle lever is on the Boeing i.e auto-throttle moves forward and aft during use and a Thrust lever i.e an Airbus stays in whatever detent it is selected??? Yes I know your giving a Thrust input to the FADEC/ECU etc etc but still!!!

Bearcat

smurfjed wrote: »

No porkies :) Easy to prove with wiki

smurfjed

Smurf....... We've been here before.....The floor is yours.

boeingboy

A320 wrote: »

I was always told that a Throttle lever is on the Boeing i.e auto-throttle moves forward and aft during use and a Thrust lever i.e an Airbus stays in whatever detent it is selected??? Yes I know your giving a Thrust input to the FADEC/ECU etc etc but still!!!

Personally its always been a throttle for me (at it too long to care simply a wage) but since my new conversion course I was chewed up and spat out for calling them that!!! And by an "instructor" who has never flown anything else except the sim. Got to love em!

Who cares I was only jesting.

smurfjed

We've been here before

Yep, and you still havent accepted that some people lead non stereotypical lifestyles, while still enjoying the delights of flying aircraft

smurfjed

*Kol*

Lustrum wrote: »

I think Leftbase has hit the nail on the head, the biggest stumbling block would be making contact with the ground. Imagine what would be going through your head if you enter a cockpit with both pilots passed out, you can hear voices in their headsets but they can't hear you? I think 99% of people would flip out.

I spend my days at the moment showing people how to fly full motion 747 sims. With help from the ground, I think anyone could get the autoland set up and land. Without help, or without an autoland, I think the professional pilots here will tell you that the ground comes up awful quick from 50ft, and I would imagine the touchdown would be something similar to the crash programme last week - hardly anyone I bring in remembers to flare, even when you're telling them "do it now" as they just freeze. And landing a 747 is completely different to landing a C172, so even PPL holders struggle

I agree that if they could be instructed to get the auto land set up with auto brakes on touch down that it could be very successfully done (assuming they manage to contact the ground!!).

A320

boeingboy wrote: »

Personally its always been a throttle for me (at it too long to care simply a wage) but since my new conversion course I was chewed up and spat out for calling them that!!! And by an "instructor" who has never flown anything else except the sim. Got to love em!

Who cares I was only jesting.

lol sorry for being pedantic

Elvis_Presley

How about landing on water? Would that be safer for a novice?

Dacian

Elvis_Presley wrote: »

How about landing on water? Would that be safer for a novice?

Absolutely not. Hitting water is the same as hitting concrete....but with sinking afterwards.

And it would not be a 'landing'