Could passengers land a passenger jet?

Irish Steve

OK, I wil bite

Friend of mine, back before Osama screwed up being able to get into "proper" simulators did some visits for sim flyers and friends. I've seen him take someone who has never been in the hot seat of a sim before, and with a reasonably well set up aircraft, he has then talked the person in the hot seat through doing a visual approach and landing. No big deal you may say. Until I then say that the aircraft in question was a 747-400, and the approach being used was into Kai Tak, with the low level turn on late final. There was an "assistant" in the RHS looking after flaps, spoilers and gear at the right moments, but hey, if the airlines use 2 people to fly a 747, that's allowed.

Not everyone could do it, that's for sure, and the same is true for any of the discussions we've seen in this thread.

A well clued up sim flyer with some heavy jet experience would stand a reasonable chance of getting a modern jet, (especially an Airbus) on to the runway in a reasonable state, as the side stick doesn't have the same feedback that the traditional yoke has, as long as everything is working, has been set up information wise, and it's not being flown into CAT 3 conditions.

After that, it's probably a lottery as to success or failure.

The same friend and I (neither of us type rated on the type), again pre Bin Laden, "flew" a research exercise in an A320 sim, we were exploring the extreme edges of the envelope to see how the sim/aircraft reacted to events with significant failures of much of the automatic flight systems, (for those that understand these things, full manual reversion), and we did quite a few things as part of that research. At the end of the session, several hours, the instructor, an airline type rated instructor and examiner commented "interesting, you guys have done something we'd been told wasn't possible, that's going to provoke some serious discussion at our next staff meeting", and his smile told us that he meant it.

I've also flown with very experienced simulator flyers in small aircraft who were in trouble when flying VFR, as they were unable to relate the control movements to the aircraft movements, and because of the way that the simulators work, they tended to overcontrol, and react too quickly to normal "minor" upsets that tend to balance out and self correct, the result in their cases was significant pilot induced oscillation, so sim flying is not an automatic entry to being able to fly a full size jet.

The other side of that coin is the Air France 330 crash, and I've also seen type rated pilots on heavy jets who could not cope with an exercise that prevented them from flying their normal "standard" approach and landing where they basically just follow the magenta line on the displays. In the case we were looking at, the exercise was an emergency descent from 10000 Ft to a VFR landing, shortest time wins. Just to clarify that, the full exercise was actually take off, climb to 10,000 Ft, and land back on, shortest time wins, only other rule was don't break the airplane(Sim). Several type rated first officers broke the airplane in the air because they didn't have the underlying raw data flying skills to do a slam dunk approach and landing without any instrument guidance.

It seems like a bit of a joke exercise, until you consider the possibilities of a serious engine fire, so the plan is Land ASAP.

To clarify that a bit further, parking brakes off to parking brakes on , CAVOK, no other traffic, with the runway at sea level, can be done in 6 Mins 25 seconds, in a light 747-400. That's a very long way from Airline SOP's, but if it's the difference between a landing or a crash, I know which I'd prefer!

So, and I'm fully expecting all manner of negative posts to this, I am disagreeing with both sides. I am saying to some of the professionals, and some of the sim flyers also, you are wrong, and at the same time, I am also saying that a successful outcome for a non professional would be very hard, and require a lot of luck along the way.

Bessarion

Irish Steve wrote: »

OK, I wil bite
......So, and I'm fully expecting all manner of negative posts to this, I am disagreeing with both sides. I am saying to some of the professionals, and some of the sim flyers also, you are wrong, and at the same time, I am also saying that a successful outcome for a non professional would be very hard, and require a lot of luck along the way........

Nice post.......but you may just have added fuel to the already heated debate......and we all have the oxygen levels to keep this burning......

Suasdaguna1

I disagree.....you can sim all you like but put a simmer in a real live jet at 35000 feet and say there you go.....I await. Descent management, speed management and the cold sweats that if you fugh this one up, there's no second chances.

Put a simmer on an approach say with a b737 flap 5 180kts or a 320 flap 2 the same.....yeah I can see the simmer with knowledge of button pressing be able to lock on to an ILS. Give them a non managed NPA or visual.....nope.....especially at night....you decide.

Ok they get to 50'---thrust levers to idle at 20 feet and check.....things can go pear shaped here. Ok they make the runway....selection of reverse and Useage of brakes.....dead easy for a rwy excursion.

Put a 10kt cross wind in...the grass beckons. Put a 20kt wind in worse again and a 30kt wind in= a black smoking hole.

I know simmers think being a pilot is a piece of p!ss.....come back to me if you still think so and can put 400 folk on terra firma safely in a howling 40kt cross wind.

(Tin hat on for abuse from sim brigade)

LeftBase

Irish Steve wrote: »

OK, I wil bite

Friend of mine, back before Osama screwed up being able to get into "proper" simulators did some visits for sim flyers and friends. I've seen him take someone who has never been in the hot seat of a sim before, and with a reasonably well set up aircraft, he has then talked the person in the hot seat through doing a visual approach and landing. No big deal you may say. Until I then say that the aircraft in question was a 747-400, and the approach being used was into Kai Tak, with the low level turn on late final. There was an "assistant" in the RHS looking after flaps, spoilers and gear at the right moments, but hey, if the airlines use 2 people to fly a 747, that's allowed.

Not everyone could do it, that's for sure, and the same is true for any of the discussions we've seen in this thread.

A well clued up sim flyer with some heavy jet experience would stand a reasonable chance of getting a modern jet, (especially an Airbus) on to the runway in a reasonable state, as the side stick doesn't have the same feedback that the traditional yoke has, as long as everything is working, has been set up information wise, and it's not being flown into CAT 3 conditions.

After that, it's probably a lottery as to success or failure.

The same friend and I (neither of us type rated on the type), again pre Bin Laden, "flew" a research exercise in an A320 sim, we were exploring the extreme edges of the envelope to see how the sim/aircraft reacted to events with significant failures of much of the automatic flight systems, (for those that understand these things, full manual reversion), and we did quite a few things as part of that research. At the end of the session, several hours, the instructor, an airline type rated instructor and examiner commented "interesting, you guys have done something we'd been told wasn't possible, that's going to provoke some serious discussion at our next staff meeting", and his smile told us that he meant it.

I've also flown with very experienced simulator flyers in small aircraft who were in trouble when flying VFR, as they were unable to relate the control movements to the aircraft movements, and because of the way that the simulators work, they tended to overcontrol, and react too quickly to normal "minor" upsets that tend to balance out and self correct, the result in their cases was significant pilot induced oscillation, so sim flying is not an automatic entry to being able to fly a full size jet.

The other side of that coin is the Air France 330 crash, and I've also seen type rated pilots on heavy jets who could not cope with an exercise that prevented them from flying their normal "standard" approach and landing where they basically just follow the magenta line on the displays. In the case we were looking at, the exercise was an emergency descent from 10000 Ft to a VFR landing, shortest time wins. Just to clarify that, the full exercise was actually take off, climb to 10,000 Ft, and land back on, shortest time wins, only other rule was don't break the airplane(Sim). Several type rated first officers broke the airplane in the air because they didn't have the underlying raw data flying skills to do a slam dunk approach and landing without any instrument guidance.

It seems like a bit of a joke exercise, until you consider the possibilities of a serious engine fire, so the plan is Land ASAP.

To clarify that a bit further, parking brakes off to parking brakes on , CAVOK, no other traffic, with the runway at sea level, can be done in 6 Mins 25 seconds, in a light 747-400. That's a very long way from Airline SOP's, but if it's the difference between a landing or a crash, I know which I'd prefer!

So, and I'm fully expecting all manner of negative posts to this, I am disagreeing with both sides. I am saying to some of the professionals, and some of the sim flyers also, you are wrong, and at the same time, I am also saying that a successful outcome for a non professional would be very hard, and require a lot of luck along the way.

One thing I can tell you right now is that when I got out of the A320 Sim and into the A320 it was different. Sims can be very realistic but never 100% of what it is really like. In a Sim you know a **** up can be reset, but in real life know it cannot. No matter how hard you try in the sim to pretend it's real you know deep down it isn't!

If you actually sit in to a modern jet and have it beep standard alerts at you on approach and a wind that is not straight down the barrel you will see what I mean.

Simmers think they can fly a real jet no bother. I did when I was an FSX Captain.....but believe me....no chance!

knucklehead6

I'd have no such delusions about my ability to get the sim down in one piece.

but it would be interesting to give it a bash, just to see how badly I'd mess it up

Cork boy 55

RTE
Updated: 19:43, Wednesday, 09 October 2013

A passenger who had never flown an aircraft before has been praised for making a safe emergency landing after the pilot became ill and unable to operate the controls.
Emergency services gathered at Humberside Airport, Lincolnshire, in the UK yesterday evening after the passenger in the light aircraft had to land it with the help of two instructors from the ground.
Humberside Police said an investigation into what happened was under way, but it was too early to say what caused the pilot to become incapacitated.
(...)

Link to RTE

Surveyor11

I got a present of an hour in Eirsim's cockpit (B737 NG AFAIK) in Galway last year. It was an interesting experience. Bit of background - I had a boyhood dream of flying for a career, so as well as a general knowledge of aircraft, I had a few hours in a variety of aircraft - small Cessna's and the like - a few touch and go's. Pretty basic stuff. Understood the basics of flying - airspeed, stalls, what flaps do, etc.

I arrive at Eirsim and was given a briefing by the pilot, basics in terms of V1 / V2, stall speeds approach speeds, cruising etc. About 15 minutes of a crash course (no pun!). Then we headed into the simulator - sitting in the seat I was amazed at how tight is was, almost claustrophobic. Apparently it's a real cockpit, so the dimensions, positions of instruments are realistic.

There's a lot of information to take in. During my time in the simulator, my attention was focussed on one instrument, the primary flight display - so had airspeed, altitude, horizon indicator and heading. Also referred to the operation of the heading indicator and selecting the altimeter, basic run down on the engines on the display. I Suppose about 5 minutes to get my head around what lay ahead.


So it was set up for Dublin airport and did a take off - managed to get it off the ground and get on a pre-set heading and altitude. In no time we're out over Blessington. All the time, the pilot was doing all the stuff to stop the aircraft crashing - setting headings, airspeed, altimeter, flaps, gear, no radios obviously. After a while, we set it up again and I was asked to do more and more taking off - so adjust the settings like altimeter, headings, put gear up etc and watch what the simulator does. It obviously became harder and harder with every task I had to do.

After a while, he set up the plane for landing. The first time I landed short of the runway at Dublin airport. Everything happens so quickly - approaching a runway at 150 odd knots is a daunting experience for a novice. I found it overwhelming, I was sweating and all this time the pilot was configuring the plane for landing , so looking after airspeed, flaps, gear, etc. All I had to keep the ILS aligned and aim it towards the runway.

I would say out of 5 or so attempts, I managed to get the plane down on tarmac once. Let's say a landing that everyone could have walked away from. And that was with a pilot doing a lot of the workload. Could I do this in real life? I don't think so - the experience was intense, and that was with a co-pilot doing a lot of the work in managing the aircraft. And not worrying about 200 odd people behind me!

I asked the pilot how did he reckon I did. He reckoned not bad (probably says that to everyone!) but he did say my little flying experience was evident - I was making changes in the aircraft subtly and gradually, letting the aircraft settle back etc. So I wasn't yanking the controls from left to right and putting the aircraft all over the place. He also commented I was not afraid to use the rudder pedals.

Here's their sim - no sure how it rates with others, but a sobering experience for those bar stool pilots out there

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCdZz0E_-WE

Also have a look at this one - I thinks it's an amazing clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG4LH8io6Fc

Does a simmer / bar stool pilot really think they could land in this scenario?

Surveyor11

I watched a documentary on YouTube recently, a Dutch TV show where the presenter has a good few hours, perhaps a PPL, and dreamt of flying a 737 type plane. Can't root out the link, but from memory he was set the challenge of taking off from one airport on a 737 and landing at another airport. He had (I think) 10 weeks to prepare so not sure what that translated to in hours behind the stick of the aircraft.

It was interesting watching. Bearing in mind the guy had a good grounding in general aviation, he was still pretty overwhelmed by taking off and landing. In the end of the show, I think he has 3 missed landings (in that the captain took over, put the plane on a go-around and configured it again for landing) before the guy managed to get the plane on the ground. But he managed it in the end.

FWVT

This is the video from Belgian TV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcrpR1YI1qc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

relaxed

Would it be better to try a Hudson type landing if there was calm water available?

Say the Shannon estuary, would it be safer than missing the runway by 500m and obviously the emergency services would already by standing by to get to the aircraft?

Would it be much less complicated to set the planes angle of descent from 30000 feet and calculate where it would land so rescue crews could be ready?