Ash Dieback Disease (Chalara fraxinea) in Ireland

Oldtree

It appears that a catch 22 lies in wait for us.

Aside from ash dieback, the other major threat to European ash trees is the Emerald Ash Borer beetle, which has already devastated vast tracts of ash in the USA and is currently spreading westwards across Europe.

Joint lead author Dr Christine Sambles, of the University of Exeter, comments: "Our research highlights the danger of selecting trees for resilience to ash dieback at the expense of resistance to insects that threaten this iconic UK tree species."

"Ash dieback, which is caused by a fungus called Hymenoscyphus fraxineus, can kill young trees in a season, while older trees tend to decline and die over several years."

https://phys.org/news/2017-01-ash-diebackinsect-threat-fungus-resistant-trees.html

Here's the paper

Here we sequence the genome of a low-heterozygosity Fraxinus excelsior tree from Gloucestershire, UK
Surveys of these markers in British populations suggest that reduced susceptibility to ash dieback may be more widespread in Great Britain than in Denmark

Could I hope to suggest that there is an even better reduced susceptibility to ash dieback here. Even more important now to collect the old trees seeds, until proven otherwise.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v541/n7636/full/nature20786.html

It is worth noteing that our dwarf ash trees, such as those on limestone pavements, can be of a great age. Should you find any have a look here to see how to get a rough age for them:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76652880

Oldtree

TheBody wrote: »

This site indicates that the freezer is too cold but the fridge is ok.

http://treegrowing.tcv.org.uk/grow/tree-recipes/ash

Thank you for the link, getting to work on the leaf mould now but going to use beech leaves not ash.

taxusbaccata

timfromtang wrote: »

Cutting a quote from taxusbaccata,,,,,,,,


>>>...there may be serious regulatory concerns from the disease control crowds, i expect they would take issue with folk visiting multiple ash sites to collect keys,

The regulatory crowd have failed in their belated attempts at logical solutions for Dieback. Cut down the suspected tree and bury it in the ground seems to be national policy. It is a wind borne fungal entity that can exist on more than Ash trees. Genetic variation is the only way out.

The poly tunnel inoculation suggestion is to stress huge amounts of genetic variation in an incubation chamber. The natural setting is definately worth running in parallel but I think the artificial mass inoculation could come up with survivors rapidly. It is the youngest trees that are most vulnerable so it is best to kill these off from the beginning rather than contract the disease in more mature trees.

With regard to your 30,000 trees - if this is a monoculture then I fear they are weakened. This was the situation in Poland where Dieback was first officially diagnosed (in Europe). Nature does not like monoculture of any organism and kills off the species if its numbers get too concentrated. This could be an issue in my polytunnel theoretical setup..

My method of planting Ash are in a 4 point Ash square with an alternating supporting tree in the centre - birch, alder, oak, and willow - which also form a 4 point overlapping network. Thus each ash is in contact with all these species. Each tree has special "super powers" - alder for nitrogen fixation and oak for stimulating fungal networks etc. The logic behind this network is based on recent evidence using radioactive elements that trees of the same AND different species share resources with each other. This promotes much healthier trees including immune systems to fight the great foe.

I note woodpeckers are very helpful for emerald ash borer - have we any native bird species that could help here? Again polyculture to attract birds could be invaluable with this additional crisis.

Anyway all I suggest is theory and opinion with about 10% fact thrown in.

I'll see how I get on and post any sightings of the ash plague.

timfromtang

taxusbaccata wrote: »

With regard to your 30,000 trees - if this is a monoculture then I fear they are weakened. This was the situation in Poland where Dieback was first officially diagnosed (in Europe). Nature does not like monoculture of any organism and kills off the species if its numbers get too concentrated. This could be an issue in my polytunnel theoretical setup..

My method of planting Ash are in a 4 point Ash square with an alternating supporting tree in the centre - birch, alder, oak, and willow - which also form a 4 point overlapping network. Thus each ash is in contact with all these species. Each tree has special "super powers" - alder for nitrogen fixation and oak for stimulating fungal networks etc. The logic behind this network is based on recent evidence using radioactive elements that trees of the same AND different species share resources with each other. This promotes much healthier trees including immune systems to fight the great foe.


I'll see how I get on and post any sightings of the ash plague.

Thank you Taxxus for sharing your planting method, I concur that Ash grows best in mixtures, in fact when Dad and I were first planting we encouraged our forester to allow us to mix the hardwoods, we were partially successful, and as a result much of our ash is in mixed stands although perhaps not as intimately mixed as you suggest. However we do have 2 blocks of monoculture ash, in particular the youngest ash plantation is a large single species block.

As the disease progresses through this monoculture and I remove infected stems we will be replacing these with other species, can you suggest "particular" species which grow well with ash? I have noticed at home that in the places where the mixture of hardwoods is most intimate the plants are growing best. I was intending to use walnut, and cherry as replacements (to mitigate the economic hit with more valuable species), it seems a rethink may be necessary. The site with the young infected ash monoculture is not really suited to either alder or willow. Oak, and Birch will be fine though.

tim

timfromtang

Hi All,
I have cleared a polytunnel, and could use it to conduct a screening experiment, I have access to infective material (from the leaf litter in our infected stand)
the problem i face is how to source a broad variety of different ash,
just buying a couple of thousand plants from none so hardy or such would seem pointless to me

any suggestions,,,,
tim

taxusbaccata

timfromtang wrote: »

Thank you Taxxus for sharing your planting method, I concur that Ash grows best in mixtures, in fact when Dad and I were first planting we encouraged our forester to allow us to mix the hardwoods, we were partially successful, and as a result much of our ash is in mixed stands although perhaps not as intimately mixed as you suggest. However we do have 2 blocks of monoculture ash, in particular the youngest ash plantation is a large single species block.

As the disease progresses through this monoculture and I remove infected stems we will be replacing these with other species, can you suggest "particular" species which grow well with ash? I have noticed at home that in the places where the mixture of hardwoods is most intimate the plants are growing best. I was intending to use walnut, and cherry as replacements (to mitigate the economic hit with more valuable species), it seems a rethink may be necessary. The site with the young infected ash monoculture is not really suited to either alder or willow. Oak, and Birch will be fine though.

tim

Hi Tim,

I would guess that Oldtree has really good knowledge on what trees work with each other.

My small plantation is only put in this spring and autumn 2016 but I have been watching local trees for a while. I have all the native Irish species except for Juniper (I found it growing wild 1km away just recently) with a section that is Ash heavy (the 2x2 ash + 1 supporting matrix zone). I would use native species where possible as all these species evolved in each others presence. Local provence as much as possible too - I heard it said that the genetic advantages of a tree can be as specific as within 20km to a region.

Again Im just thinking out loud as I have little practical experience - just applying plant biology theory.

It would be a great experiment for each poster to collect key seeds in autumn from around their county and transfer to a nominated grower. Forget about the risk of transmitting Chalara its here already.

timfromtang

Hi Taxxus,
did you get my PM, your plant biology Theory would be useful to me. I have only the basic grounding i recieved in ucd studying forestry.

As for the sharing of ash keys between posters, I'm all for it, I will plant any I receive, as i posted earlier i have cleared a polytunnel for the purpose, and will collect locally (within 20km as you suggest) this autumn. I also plan to recruit a couple of forester friends to help with this.

I'd suggest it would be really good if an organisation like UCD forestry dept, or perhaps WIT forestry dept, or any other biology dept in any university,
could team up with the GAA (who have a motive to save the ash for the hurl, and a club in every parish, and who might respond to and participate in a trial run by a university),
or indeed with the general public (some small fraction of which actually seem to care for trees as i do)
to organise a nationwide seed collection this autumn, and to run a subsequent trial.

pm me for my address

tim
tis too windy for thinning today

Vivat Fraxinus

taxusbaccata

A nice TED talk about tree exchanging nutrients:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un2yBgIAxYs&t=7s

timfromtang

taxusbaccata wrote: »

A nice TED talk about tree exchanging nutrients:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un2yBgIAxYs&t=7s

more from Suzanne Simard, ...........
http://www.peoplebehindthescience.com/dr-suzanne-simard/
http://profiles.forestry.ubc.ca/person/suzanne-simard/

it is a shame that all of her research papers are behind paywalls (not available to the general public without payment)

tim

TheBody

timfromtang wrote: »

more from Suzanne Simard, ...........
http://www.peoplebehindthescience.com/dr-suzanne-simard/
http://profiles.forestry.ubc.ca/person/suzanne-simard/

it is a shame that all of her research papers are behind paywalls (not available to the general public without payment)

tim

If there is a particular paper you would like to read, let me know and I MIGHT be able to get it for you. No promises, but I'll try my best.

99nsr125

timfromtang wrote: »

Hi All,
I have cleared a polytunnel, and could use it to conduct a screening experiment, I have access to infective material (from the leaf litter in our infected stand)
the problem i face is how to source a broad variety of different ash,
just buying a couple of thousand plants from none so hardy or such would seem pointless to me

any suggestions,,,,
tim

Would you like keys or cuttings or other materials
I'll collect whatever you want off our farm, seal and send it on to you

timfromtang

Pat Daly seems to be the man to contact
http://www.gaa.ie/hurling/news/gaa-ash-society-begin-harvesting-hurley-butts/
The Gaa has an Ash society!
there is funding available from DAFM
perhaps............
tim

Danzy

The Woodpecker is making a return to Ireland after a several hundred year hiatus.

The Irish for a Woodpecker is/was Snag breac.

The disappeared here when the rowdy neighbours cleared out the woodlands, the magpie came to Ireland around the 1640s and the name was transferred over to them.

The Emerald Borer isn't in Ireland, is it.

woollyman

Generally if you contact an author of a journal article they will be able to email you a copy of the requested article.

timfromtang

woollyman wrote: »

Generally if you contact an author of a journal article they will be able to email you a copy of the requested article.

Many thanks for this
There are many articles i would like to read,
tim.

timfromtang

Hi All,


Further to the dual approaches of trialling thousands of seedlings in an infective environment in a polytunnel, and multitudes of smaller diy trials by ordinary folk around infected trees in the wider environment.

A third possibility occurs to me,
research from Canada from Suzanne Simard and others would indicate that mycelial relationships between related trees, mother daughter etc, unrelated trees of the same species, and indeed even interspecies underground exchanges, all contribute to ecosystem and plant resilience and health. If help can be recruited from that quarter, then it may be possible to design a trial of ash material planted within cadres of other species, Perhaps beneath "mother" trees, we may discover beneficial interspecies relationship which help Ash to resist the infection.

I have mentioned biochar in the past, and indeed have made some and will be trialling it here in my own infected stand. Although I am skeptical as there is a lot of "hype" around this area. There are however a couple of sound enough things that adding biochar to the soil may achieve, and worldwide forests co-exist with fire in a large number of ecosystems, surface area, and nutrient retention (note it is not sequestered, but biologically available to mycelia and such) to mention a couple.
I am glad to report that i have had positive conversations with some folk, it seems that it may be possible to organise a vast collection of ash material for trialling.

I am also glad to report i have had positive conversations with some folk, and hope to meet others next week, place people expertise communication, dots are being joined.

tim

as fuinseóg a rinneadh an camán, Fuinseóg abú

Vivat Fraxinus

SILVAMAN

re Mycelia

I've dipped trees in a solution of mycorrhizal fungi-the name escapes me, though NOVOZYMES ? comes to mind-and the difference in tree growth between treated and untreated was staggering.

taxusbaccata

SILVAMAN wrote: »

re Mycelia

I've dipped trees in a solution of mycorrhizal fungi-the name escapes me, though NOVOZYMES ? comes to mind-and the difference in tree growth between treated and untreated was staggering.

I was looking into mycorrhizal inoculants when I came across this:

http://www.gardenmyths.com/mycorrhizae-fungi-inoculant-products/

The entire site is quite cynical of products aimed at gardeners - it has a nature will sort itself out policy which is usually true...

SILVAMAN

taxusbaccata wrote: »

I was looking into mycorrhizal inoculants when I came across this:

http://www.gardenmyths.com/mycorrhizae-fungi-inoculant-products/

The entire site is quite cynical of products aimed at gardeners - it has a nature will sort itself out policy which is usually true...

I'm a forester not a gardener....I know my stuff.
If it ain't there, it's probably never going to come in of its own accord.
30 cm hazel after 2 years 180 cm minimum as opposed 70-85 cm untreated. The product was composed of 45 fungal innoculants.
Your article refers to gardens.
Forestry is inherently different.

timfromtang

well said silvaman,
It is my understanding that we are short of many of the mycorrhizal species that would have in the past been present due to the very severe deforestation that our little green island has suffered over the last 800 years.

It is my hope that we can change this.
reforest our island and reintroduce where necessary the mycorrhiza that trees need to thrive.

tim

taxusbaccata

SILVAMAN wrote: »

I'm a forester not a gardener....I know my stuff.
If it ain't there, it's probably never going to come in of its own accord.
30 cm hazel after 2 years 180 cm minimum as opposed 70-85 cm untreated. The product was composed of 45 fungal innoculants.
Your article refers to gardens.
Forestry is inherently different.

Silvaman, would you recommend any particular product?

I see these:
https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/product/tnc-mycorrmax/
http://www.rootgrow.co.uk/shop/rootgrow-professional-2-5ltr.html
http://www.dragonfli.co.uk/product/ps-01d

Above products can be slow with the details. strain numbers etc...

Or make your own?
I have heard that collected local fresh mushrooms in autumn and mixing them chopped with wood ash, sawdust, bark, leaf mulch for a few months will create a nice mix.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/creating-your-own-mycorrhiza-zbcz1403

I might give the commercial products a try as I have heard great things about results with them.

SILVAMAN

taxusbaccata wrote: »

Silvaman, would you recommend any particular product?

I'll look for the product tomorrow and find out the name. Moved it somewhere in one of the sheds.

taxusbaccata

Interesting video on mycorrhyza and ultimately not using them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tdo3wSHVhA

The top comment is interesting:

"...Put about a pound of rice in the stocking, tie a knot, dip it in honeyed or molasses water and plant deep enough to discourage squirrels and such...and wait. The fungi collected is local and correct for your area"

I have actually noticed in my new glasshouse that when I pour my kitchen waste bin liquid over the soil surface the fungal networks explode - I assume the spores in the soil are waiting to be fed. It is generally recommended to throw some soil into your kitchen waste bin while filling to get the fungi and bacteria started - makes sense.

10 Abandoned Practices and Products: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQpACENc3WE

What amazes me is that despite cloning, discovery of the Higgs Bosom and landing on the moon man does not understand some really basic soil mechanisms.

SILVAMAN

taxusbaccata wrote: »

Interesting video on mycorrhyza and ultimately not using them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tdo3wSHVhA

The top comment is interesting:

"...Put about a pound of rice in the stocking, tie a knot, dip it in honeyed or molasses water and plant deep enough to discourage squirrels and such...and wait. The fungi collected is local and correct for your area"

I have actually noticed in my new glasshouse that when I pour my kitchen waste bin liquid over the soil surface the fungal networks explode - I assume the spores in the soil are waiting to be fed. It is generally recommended to throw some soil into your kitchen waste bin while filling to get the fungi and bacteria started - makes sense.

10 Abandoned Practices and Products: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQpACENc3WE

What amazes me is that despite cloning, discovery of the Higgs Bosom and landing on the moon man does not understand some really basic soil mechanisms.

Yes it amazes me that even though they can see back billions of years, they still cannot manage to cure the common cold.

taxusbaccata

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Yes it amazes me that even though they can see back billions of years, they still cannot manage to cure the common cold.

The cure for the common cold and influenza is very much related to dieback and high concentrations of one organism - a lot less humans

blue5000

I think a lot of the research with biochar is flawed, here's why; the parent material needs to be from the same type of plant as the plant that is going to benefit from the char. The theory is that the char contains basic building blocks for plant hormones. So there is no point in using vegetable waste as parent material for char if you want trees to benefit, and vice a versa.

Tim if if you want ash to benefit, use ash for the char.

http://www.carbolea.ul.ie/files/Biochar%20Swift%20Hayes%20Chemrawn.pdf

timfromtang

blue5000 wrote: »

I think a lot of the research with biochar is flawed, here's why; the parent material needs to be from the same type of plant as the plant that is going to benefit from the char. The theory is that the char contains basic building blocks for plant hormones. So there is no point in using vegetable waste as parent material for char if you want trees to benefit, and vice a versa.

Tim if if you want ash to benefit, use ash for the char.

http://www.carbolea.ul.ie/files/Biochar%20Swift%20Hayes%20Chemrawn.pdf

thanks, it is what i am doing with leaf litter and smaller woody material from the infected stems I am removing.

I use an old metal bath for the charring, using a similar principle to the Kontiki kiln, or open pit burning. The principle is simple, bash the crap out of the fire so the char falls low where oxygen is limited, keep the fire burning fiercely on top to ensure oxygen is consumed before reaching the lower layers and provide the necessary heat to maintain the pryolisation at the right temperature (circa 700C is my aim), add a new thin layer of fuel as soon as you see ash forming on the blackened sticks that are flaming. Add fuel little and often, constant supervision is necessary, but a batch only takes 2-3 hours, quench with water when done, and who does not love playing with fire!

Thus far my infection seems light, I am thinning a section of ash monoculture planted in 2003 at the moment, and I am seeing a low frequency of infected plants. I am removing one rack in 8 for access (3300 plants/Ha atm) just now and have only done 2 and a bit racks, so it is early to quote the frequency, but i have thus far seen only one infected plant.

tim

as fuinseog a rinneadh an camán, Fuinseog abú

timfromtang

@ taxusbaccata, I take it you did note my comment on the shortage of naturally available mycorrhizal symbionts for forest trees in Ireland due to severe deforestation, high phosphate levels from agriculture, and more.

However I am sure the "naturally" occurring varieties are still here in small patches, perhaps this opens a further path that may help with positively influencing the outcome of the current problems we face, in forestry and elsewhere.

as fuinseog a rinneadh an camán,
Fuisneóg Abú

tim

As the Ash said to the Oak when the Axe came into the forest, "That handle was once one of us"

timfromtang

hi all,
further progress has been made over the weekend on national screening trials to screen for resistance, folk who feel that they may have something to offer the "Team" please will you pm me.

tim

timfromtang

Hi all,
Gerry Douglas of Teagasc was kind enough to share this book with me, I thought i would further share it here, it is free to download.

Quote"
An important book-- free online summarises the research underway for the past 10 years in Europe. We can expect the same or similar statistics in the next few years in terms of trees infected and the continued increase in tree mortality with each passing year. the chapter from Germany is especially informative. The full book can be downloaded at :
http://www.slu.se/globalassets/ew/org/inst/mykopat/forskning/stenlid/dieback-of-european-ash.pdf

"

I hope folks that this will help us in our understanding and in deciding how to progress from here.

Best regards
Tim
Fuisneóg Abú