Ash Dieback Disease (Chalara fraxinea) in Ireland

JohnBoy

Oldtree wrote: »

Not good to hear.
Did you manage to get a response from the dept in the end?

Yes and no. I have a friend who works there and I got onto him in the end and he made something happen to get someone to actually look at it.

Stupid that I had to go that way though.

Dozer1

still held up here, none of the clearance options were viable to me, Dept tell me that there is a "new" plan coming out for older plantations affected, any body got idea when that will be announced?

timfromtang

Dozer1 wrote: »

still held up here, none of the clearance options were viable to me, Dept tell me that there is a "new" plan coming out for older plantations affected, any body got idea when that will be announced?

I have not gone with any of the reconstitution options offered by the department after all, We simply decided that we'd do better managing the disease ourselves, we have plantations affected that were planted in 1996, 2001, 2003, and 2011. Thus far I have concentrated on removing infected stems in the older stands, and there is in each area enough natural regeneration to remove the need to plant replacements. I will remove the marked diseased trees in the youngest stand later on this winter and replace them with properly certified stock.

Since we are still fairly early in the rotation and stocking levels are high,
and given an expected survival rate 0f 2-8% of stems,
there is potential for some portion of a final crop of ash,
these will be resistant trees

the "costs" involved seem to be largely labour which we are suppling ourselves, there will be a need to purchase a number of replacement plants of course, we are fortunate in that we can micro manage our forest as there are only 100 acres in total, and only 44 of these have an ash component.

tim

Oldtree

timfromtang wrote: »

and given an expected survival rate 0f 2-8% of stems, there is potential for some portion of a final crop of ash, these will be resistant trees

Where did you get this info from tim?

Oldtree

There were also notable increases in findings in forestry plantations in a number of counties where the disease had previously been detected, particularly Counties Clare, Cork, Galway, Laois, Kilkenny, Mayo, Meath, Tipperary, Wexford, and Wicklow.

It would be worthwhile to know how many samples were taken overall in 2016 and how many of those samples were positive.

The total for individual infected site findings are now at 538 for Ireland.



The DAFM provided map, for some reason, does not include all 538 sites.


http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/treediseases/ashdiebackchalara/#currentfindings

NI figures are now a year out of date

https://www.daera-ni.gov.uk/articles/ash-dieback-disease

With the NI infected wider environment figure on the UK FC site listed as 0.
Noteably the infection figure for the wider environment for the UK as a whole is 37.8%.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara#Distribution

One element of the spore trapping experiment was to place spore traps at 10-15km intervals along the east coast from Wexford to Louth. Preliminary results received from laboratory analysis by INRA indicate the presence of airborne spores of H. fraxineus on traps placed at the southernmost and northernmost parts of the east coast of Ireland, near Rosslare, Co. Wexford and Castlebellingham, Co. Louth respectively, i.e. at either end of currently known eastern distribution.

Been blowing in on the wind too so..... wonder if that is from Europe or the UK?

A focussed consultation with industry stakeholder representatives and other relevant bodies on proposed Scheme changes and related matters will be undertaken over November and December 2016.

timfromtang

Oldtree wrote: »

Where did you get this info from tim?

I presume you are referring to my 2-8% survival rate, I am guessing here, based on the european experience of up to 10% survival rate in small areas, and the worst rates of loss seen at about 1%.

tim

SILVAMAN

Interesting piece in the Guardian about better resistance in British Ash to ash dieback, but the downsize is they are more susceptible to emerald ash borer.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/26/british-ash-trees-may-resist-dieback-disease-research-reveals

Oldtree

Results from the 2016 Chalara Ash Dieback Survey indicate further spread of the disease to native ash in the wider countryside.

As a result of buffer surveillance at affected sites in 2015, Ash Dieback was detected in mature hedgerow ash trees at 3 locations close to infected recently planted trees, suggesting very localised spread at that stage.

well I guess they kept that quiet for a year for a reason???

They then move on to 'group" 2016 wider environment figures into a grid map, so no real numbers

The map below shows 10km Irish Grid squares in which at least one confirmation of ash dieback infection in native ash trees has been made

https://www.daera-ni.gov.uk/articles/ash-dieback

Silverscott

Having an Ash woods 11 years old. A forester contractor had a look recently and said it may have ash dieback. But said he couldnt be sure until the leaves are on it. Is this the case that you cant test it or take a sample of bark or is it only the leaves that can tell for sure. Thanks

Oldtree

Silverscott wrote: »

Having an Ash woods 11 years old. A forester contractor had a look recently and said it may have ash dieback. But said he couldnt be sure until the leaves are on it. Is this the case that you cant test it or take a sample of bark or is it only the leaves that can tell for sure. Thanks

There are other ways to give a good indication of the disease. There are many photo id's of non leaf symptoms if you have a look through this thread, but be careful not to confuse with other diseases.

some here:

see here for further info

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/FCPH-ADD_photoID.pdf/$FILE/FCPH-ADD_photoID.pdf

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/INFD-92AHUK

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/infd-8zlksx

Perhaps ring below but be prepared for a wait by all accounts.

Forest owners, forest nursery staff, and members of the public are asked to be vigilant for the disease and report (with photographs, if possible) any sites where there are concerns about unusual ill health in ash, to the Forest Service, Department of Agriculture, Food & the Marine, by e-mail forestprotection@agriculture.gov.ie or by phoning 01-607 2651.

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/treediseases/ashdiebackchalara/

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara

https://www.daera-ni.gov.uk/articles/ash-dieback

timfromtang

Greetings all,
Well the time for action has come, after saying no thank you to the forest service offer to dig up and bury our 5 year old ash (14 acres or so) and replant, (i.e. reconstitution scheme) we are now ready to begin the process of dealing with our infection.
The plan is....
since the fungus has sex on the forest floor over winter, and releases new infective spores the following summer, this cycle must be broken.

We are going to remove all infected plants (some 85 marked so far, perhaps double that number after a thorough examination) (note there are appx 14,000 stems in total) these infected plants will be uprooted.

WE are fortunate to own a kindling machine and i have a quantity of dry (but dirty) waste wood to run through it. I plan to make enough kindling to have a fire on the ground surface where the infected stems stood, the infected stems will also be burned.

It is my hope that the fire will kill any infective matter on the ground and reduce reinfection rates this coming growing season.

weekly inspections are planned throughout the growing season to monitor infection rates, and any infected stems will be removed immediately, and the ground underneath sterilised with a kindling fire. this should also prevent infection spread.

opinions ?

advice ?

note that the forest service has stopped premium payment on this parcel until the situation is resolved, It is my hope that they will come and inspect the plantation after the sanitation and if they find no infected plants, my mam who relies on the premium for her retirement income will get the due payment.

Replacement plants will be of approved provenance of course, i rather fancy adding some potentially more valuable species, cherry, walnut et al, and will be planted the winter after plant removal.


tim

greysides

Your plan relies on burning the sources of re-infection, the plants themselves and the spores nearby.

Plants, no problem. Spores...... that would concern me.

The key question is how far spores will spread from an infected plant. Is it actually known how far spores will spread? You would need to sterilise all this area. Is it feasible? Both in terms of the width of burnt zone and in terms of the ability of the heat to reach to the depth where spores may be lodged.

Other plants in that area would need to be burnt too as they may have spores on them, to infect them or spread further onwards.

Working in the area is likely to end up spreading spores on boots, clothes, machines. Some of these can be disinfected but can it be done before they have had a chance to spread spores outside your protection limit. Is there a known effective disinfectant and protocol established?

Not knowing your situation and the disposition of the infected trees, it would nonetheless seem sensible to sacrifice plants between burnt areas as these are most likely to show up infection later.

My experience of disease spread is animal based, not plant based. A lot of the principles could be extrapolated but there will be obviously many difference once it gets down to detail.

From a TB point of view, once a herd is infected it is better to get rid of all infection in the one go, even if this means some animals are sacrificed unnecessarily (due to limitations of testing/over-zealous test interpretation), than to be too cautious in removing potential carriers and paying the price in a longer period locked up once more spread has occurred. It seems to me that the period locked up is a bigger issue for most than the scale of the losses.

In your case, extra time spent controlling the spread to where it can be verified eradicated may have a down-side too.

I understand you're trying to save the majority of 14,000 plants but instead of removing just 85 (plus others later identified), you might be better off to be severe in your approach and remove, say, 850 if it actually results in the disease being controlled.

Is it possible to sterilise an area with chemmicals/disinfectants? Maybe spray nearby plants beyond the burnt area?

What sort of growing surface is left after burning? Suitable for re-planting?


Lots of questions and no answers from me but I think these are the issues you must have already considered in reaching your decision.

timfromtang

useful questions thank you,
It is my understanding that infective spores originating from infected plants in the plantation, will not be released until summer when the infected petioles in the leaf litter produce fruiting bodies.


I accept that continuous vigilance and removal of infected stems will be necessary, for some years to come.

Since i see the disease in the wider environment locally too, it is likely that we will suffer reinfection from those sources too.

from my understanding of the disease cycle, i believe that if infections are removed as they happen, then the disease cycle is broken as the fungus needs to overwinter in the leaf petioles from fallen leaves and do its sex thing, and infective ascospores are subsequently released from those infected petioles the following summer.

time will tell

I have agreed with the forest service disease control man that if things get out of control i will go ahead with the reconstitution scheme (i.e. if next summer many more plants are infected)

I do expect that over the coming years as the disease gets more established in the irish environment that infective pressure will rise, and i accept that i may end up replacing the greater portion of the ash crop over the coming years, however, those few resistant individuals that i hope to find within the planted stock will be precious indeed. I am hoping that 1-10% of the plants will show some resistance to the disease, and that i can keep many more alive for long enough to get some sort of economic return. these plants are 5 years in the ground, and I am 50, if i can keep the bulk healthy until first thin I may still have some sort of economic return from the plantation around my 65th.

It has been my experience that trees will grow just fine where there has been a fire on the ground, esp if not planted until 12 months after the fire.

In the past we saved a crop of blight struck spuds by spreading a thick layer of straw over the haulms and burning it, then harvesting the spuds, they kept well over winter and the blight spores did not spoil the stored tubers. i assume that the fire killed all.

Since I am trying to make a living from just 100 acres of plantation forest (i do not receive the premium payments) I do have the time to intensively manage the disease, albeit at the expense of other activities which generate income from value added timber products produced on farm.

NOTE WELL
I do not intend to allow any infective material to persist on site where it may present a risk to ash trees elsewhere in the wider environment.

tim

Blackcurrants

These are a series of photographs taken last month apart from the first which was midsummer last year on a different site. Hopefully they'll help you spot infected trees more easily. The easiest way to identify an infected tree is to look for epicormic branching where you wouldn't expect to see any. Discolouration of the branches and the lesions are much harder to spot in the canopy.



20160725_115355.jpg

July last year, dead leaves still attached to infected branches.



20170110_133721.jpg

Three different sized and aged lesions on the main stem.

20170111_123609.jpg

Old lesion healed over. I imagine this will be similar to the damage that will be caused up the trunk of the tree where the epicormic growth allows the disease in. It's been suggested that trees in an advanced stage of infection could break apart from the impact of felling.

20170111_123633.jpg

Typical diamond shape with the branch the fungus traveled down in the centre of the infected area.

20170111_124834.jpg

New epicormic branches already showing signs (colour) of the infection all the way up the main stem.

99nsr125

Are you certain the third picture is Chalara because we had a mysterious lesion on a young ash which healed exactly like that and had early leaf fall too.

Sadly whilst I was away at work it was cut down and burned for firewood but the stump failed to generate new shoots unlike a buddy close by that put on 6ft of growth in 2016

Blackcurrants wrote: »

These are a series of photographs taken last month apart from the first which was midsummer last year on a different site. Hopefully they'll help you spot infected trees more easily. The easiest way to identify an infected tree is to look for epicormic branching where you wouldn't expect to see any. Discolouration of the branches and the lesions are much harder to spot in the canopy.

20160725_115355.jpg
July last year, dead leaves still attached to infected branches.

20170110_133721.jpg
Three different sized and aged lesions on the main stem.

20170111_123609.jpg
Old lesion healed over. I imagine this will be similar to the damage that will be caused up the trunk of the tree where the epicormic growth allows the disease in. It's been suggested that trees in an advanced stage of infection could break apart from the impact of felling.

20170111_123633.jpg
Typical diamond shape with the branch the fungus traveled down in the centre of the infected area.

20170111_124834.jpg
New epicormic branches already showing signs (colour) of the infection all the way up the main stem.

Blackcurrants

99nsr125 wrote: »

Are you certain the third picture is Chalara because we had a mysterious lesion on a young ash which healed exactly like that and had early leaf fall too.

Sadly whilst I was away at work it was cut down and burned for firewood but the stump failed to generate new shoots unlike a buddy close by that put on 6ft of growth in 2016

I can't be certain as the stem was on the rack and it could have been mechanical damage, but going by how fast the infection spread throughout the plantation and the infected young stems, particularly of the copice growth, I would be fairly confident that it was healed lesion. The disease is easy to see and identify on the young green bark but very tricky to spot on older stems.

I would also have thought that if the tree in question had had a healed lesion that there would be other infected plants near by.

Oldtree

Blackcurrants wrote: »

I can't be certain as the stem was on the rack and it could have been mechanical damage, but going by how fast the infection spread throughout the plantation and the infected young stems, particularly of the copice growth, I would be fairly confident that it was healed lesion. The disease is easy to see and identify on the young green bark but very tricky to spot on older stems.

I would also have thought that if the tree in question had had a healed lesion that there would be other infected plants near by.

It looks like a good sealing is going on there that has been sealing for some time and looking more like a response to mechanical damage. With the disease spreading so rapidly I don't think it's AD related. The wound looks to be about 5-6 years old maby more.

Did the tree have any other symptoms or was it tested?

Older mature tree stems appear to have witches brooms where the tree is showing signs of AD related dieback.

Blackcurrants

Oldtree wrote: »

It looks like a good sealing is going on there that has been sealing for some time and looking more like a response to mechanical damage. With the disease spreading so rapidly I don't think it's AD related. The wound looks to be about 5-6 years old maby more.

Did the tree have any other symptoms or was it tested?

Older mature tree stems appear to have witches brooms where the tree is showing signs of AD related dieback.

Attachment 409859
This picture is a close up of a 4 year old stem of copice. The stem is only about 3" in diameter. It can't be as old as you suggest. You can see the top of another diamond shaped area below and to the right of the healed scar.
These two additional images are off a different stem from the same copicing stump. You can see the stem we're talking about in the background of the first of the two new images and how the tree is repairing around the wounds.

What does AD stand for?

Oldtree

Blackcurrants wrote: »

Attachment 409859
This picture is a close up of a 4 year old stem of copice. The stem is only about 3" in diameter. It can't be as old as you suggest. You can see the top of another diamond shaped area below and to the right of the healed scar.
These two additional images are off a different stem from the same copicing stump. You can see the stem we're talking about in the background of the first of the two new images and how the tree is repairing around the wounds.

What does AD stand for?

AD ash dieback.

I can see what you mean. The second photo with the stem in the background gives a much better perspective.

What lead me to believe that the wound was more mechanical in origin was that it was so clean looking and the tree response to the wound was not what I had expected from a dieback related wound.

99nsr125

Aww crap

The follow up pictures are exactly what we had.

First noticed it in 2009, it had been cut back to the stump before so had 3 stems. Cut back again in 2015, never regenerated, stump now decayed away and timber burnt.

I should ad this was a natural seeding from nearby Ash

It's closest buddy is 10 ft away and grew strongly last year.

I'll be keeping a closer eye on the ones that were nearby this season

Fingers double crossed, either wasn't it or we have immune varieties

Blackcurrants wrote: »

Attachment 409859
This picture is a close up of a 4 year old stem of copice. The stem is only about 3" in diameter. It can't be as old as you suggest. You can see the top of another diamond shaped area below and to the right of the healed scar.
These two additional images are off a different stem from the same copicing stump. You can see the stem we're talking about in the background of the first of the two new images and how the tree is repairing around the wounds.

What does AD stand for?

taxusbaccata

Solution for Dieback

Get as many key seeds from as many sites as possible. Sow thousands of seeds in a warm humid polytunnel. Spray Chalara into tunnel and let nature take its course.

There is a series on Netflix called 3% except for ash seedlings it involves humans.

Job done.

timfromtang

Cutting a quote from taxusbaccata,,,,,,,,


"Solution for Dieback

Get as many key seeds from as many sites as possible. Sow thousands of seeds "








An idea with possibilities, there may be serious regulatory concerns from the disease control crowds, i expect they would take issue with folk visiting multiple ash sites to collect keys,

I'd like to suggest we discuss here a potentially "safe" method of sharing ash keys, or indeed ash seedlings, to those folk with the ability to screen for resistance in this way.

I'd like to suggest another approach to broaden the scope, many folk have neither polytunnel nor the ability to spray "chalara" inside.
Many folk do however have infected ash trees nearby, (a number i fear will increase with time)
I'd like to suggest a similar screening program, based on hundreds of seedlings, in pots or soil, planted or placed nearby.
If this were done by a large network of individuals countrywide....................
well
it raises hope perhaps??


perhaps foresters nationwide or a fraction thereof would consent to each running as many screenings as they see fit, in the infected sites that they manage.

perhaps foresters nationwide, or a fraction thereof would consent to running polytunnel screening programs of their own, in this way potentially having a selection of resistant seedstock available for the future. I would suggest that infective material to "spray" into the tunnel could be collected from leaf litter underlying infected sites.

I do not fear will come to distrust Ash as we have come to distrust Elm, it is in my humble opinion an essential feature of our community of life on this little green island, there is no material suited better for hurl, or axe, it supports a wide community of other creatures.
if we could possibly achieve continuity...... in our ash population......... the time for distrust would not develop, and the any intervening periods of scarcity of supply might instead reinforce its importance to us, and raise its value to the point that there would be a good economic incentive to grow Ash.

Lets discuss a safe method of plant material interchange, and perhaps methods of networking to begin a widely distributed screening program,
any takers?

tim

HURLERS HURLERS HURLERS,,, get the seeds to the clubs, get the clubs to plant and manage their own little test plots, give the clubs a protocol to follow for consistency and safety, perhaps the GAA may see fit to employ a forester at each club to run a screening program, they have an incentive after all................

Vivat Fraxinus excelsior

Fada beo an crann.

Oldtree

I admire your optimisim Tim, but I cannot see a resistant plant coming from Seed from planted stock, all with a close heritage from within seed stands, from stands here or imported stock. I think it more likely that a resistant plant may be found in a " wild setting" with a much more diluted locally defined heritage.

At this point in time I am beginning to wonder how long the disease will persist in the environment once the ash trees are gone. Would the disease just die out and be gone? Will we have to wait till our lovely old friends have faded away? Would we all be better then collecting and storing our own seed for the future from non planted sites, esp older trees, and finding a way to safely sterilise the seed and waiting till this crisis is over and done before germinating them?

timfromtang

Oldtree wrote: »

I admire your optimism Tim, but I cannot see a resistant plant coming from Seed from planted stock, all with a close heritage from within seed stands, from stands here or imported stock. I think it more likely that a resistant plant may be found in a " wild setting" with a much more diluted locally defined heritage.

At this point in time I am beginning to wonder how long the disease will persist in the environment once the ash trees are gone. Would the disease just die out and be gone? Will we have to wait till our lovely old friends have faded away? Would we all be better then collecting and storing our own seed for the future from non planted sites, esp older trees, and finding a way to safely sterilise the seed and waiting till this crisis is over and done before germinating them?

indeed it is likely that resistant plants will be found in a wild setting,,,
You will note that i proposed that folk plant a wide variety of seed from many different sources, and that i mentioned the central difficulty of how to organise the collection and sharing of such a wide variety of different seed stock.
This is central to the plan,
we know from the European experience of the disease that resistant plants are likely to exist in the wild.
optimism undented
i will continue to screen my own stock of ash for resistant plants
I probably have in excess of 30,000 ash growing here at the moment,
tim

If we do nothing...............
if many folk try many different things with optimism.........................
which approach do you feel is likely to produce the best result oldtree?

Perhaps we can discuss the central problem............
how to collect safely and distribute to interested parties a wide variety of ash seeds or seedlings to grow in trials.

Indeed perhaps seed can be collected from known resistant European trees and trialled by many here on our lovely green island

without optimism, inventiveness and hope we will have little chance of helping the situation i feel.

The doom and gloom must be dispelled if we are to have any chance with dealing with the multiple ecosystem ailments we currently face.

tim

Vivat Fraxinus

greysides

This disease came from abroad. Has any work been started there?

tabby aspreme

greysides wrote: »

This disease came from abroad. Has any work been started there?

If you search for ' seed orchard fp 202 Denmark '
or 'ash tree number 18 and 35' , you will get some information on research that is ongoing.

Oldtree

Tim, evil prevales when good men do nothing.
Much like the department ignoring this threat until it was too late. This thread has been a record of that malaise, with information surfacing that predates the start of this thread indicating a time when there was the possibility of isolating this islands ash and it was knowingly ignored. So I really expect no more than a bit if lip service from there.

I do not intend to do nothing. I have ancient ash stock and I intend to try and preserve the genetic linage therein. It is far more valuable in research terms than the linage in mass produced stock that has been bred for specific traits and is of mostly unknown provenance. I am going to have to figure out a way to ensure self pollination to preserve the line. So far just practicing saving seed and attempts at germination havn't been great, so any advice welcomed.

At the same time I cannot ignore the evidence that is coming from Europe and the UK about how virulent and thorough this disease is.

blue5000

Is the freezer a good place to keep seed or is it too cold?

TheBody

blue5000 wrote: »

Is the freezer a good place to keep seed or is it too cold?

This site indicates that the freezer is too cold but the fridge is ok.

http://treegrowing.tcv.org.uk/grow/tree-recipes/ash

Blackcurrants

Oldtree wrote: »

At the same time I cannot ignore the evidence that is coming from Europe and the UK about how virulent and thorough this disease is.

I hate to say it but from what I have seen there is very little we can do but look for natural resistance and try and realise what we can from our plantations. The disease is so fast moving and aggressive that unless you are situated on the top of a hill away from other plantations there is little chance of not finding the disease in the next few years. Thankfully we have mainly mixed hardwood plantations. We had to fight tooth and nail for 2 years to be allowed to plant an ash and oak mix 25 years ago and thank the God's we did. How can the Dep. be so short sighted?

I'll definitely be collecting and cataloguing our old ash on the farm.

In regards to natural resistance; is this partial resistance or full resistance? Would the tree look diseased and survive or will the tree just remain healthy? Currently I'm removing trees that are showing signs of the disease, perhaps this is counter productive as some may be resistant?