Smallest caliber for shooting deer

superlite

Just after reading the wild life act 1976(ammunition and firearms)act 1977 and came across this


Centre-fire rifles of not less than ·22 calibre with a muzzle energy of not less than 1,700 foot pounds.


Ammunition.

Any bullet for use in such rifles, weighing not less than 55 grains.

Can anyone clarify this as I thought the minimum requirement was .243

Tommy87

The minimum was never .243. As far as I know it was .22-250. But now as you say it goes by energy and must be .22 centre fire.

cookimonster

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056761014

Check this out before you go on.........

owelfisherman

cookimonster wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056761014

Check this out before you go on.........

22.250

4200fps

22-250 and .220 swift with a 60 grain load is the smallest legal caliber for shooting deer in Ireland

mark.17hmr

I know a .223 isnt legal for deer hunting but what is the 69grn or the 75grn putting out.. would it comply with the regulations for shooting deer?? The projectile is bigger than and they are a heavier load than the 60grn minimum outlined for the .220 swift and the 22.250 ??? Just curious...

snipe02

can deer be shot with a swift was told by a lad it was because of new leg is this true know feck all about rifles so sorry if its been already dealt with so forgive my ignorance

4200fps

mark.17hmr wrote: »

I know a .223 isnt legal for deer hunting but what is the 69grn or the 75grn putting out.. would it comply with the regulations for shooting deer?? The projectile is bigger than and they are a heavier load than the 60grn minimum outlined for the .220 swift and the 22.250 ??? Just curious...

75 grain 223 puts out about 1430 ft/lbs at muzzle no way near legal for deer. If you have a .223 WSSM she be perfectly legal

tomcat220t

The min is .22 cal but why would one choose it as a suitable deer caliber when some bigger /heavier calibers are cheaper to run and better suited
Deer are not shot with muzzle energy !
Regards ,Tomcat.

4200fps

Very true Tomcat. Why they need muzzle energy of 1700ft/lbs is to insure that the round has at least 1000ft/lbs of energy when it hits the deer as rounds loose alot of energy the further they travel. Poor muzzle energy results in poor energy down the field

tomcat220t

Hi 4200fps, some of the very best shots ive seen on deer ...inc red deer ,were taken with a .22-250s .That was going back 25years or more with on range finders,fancy scopes ..ect.
Calibers and shooters have changed since then ,i guess .
Regards,Tomcat.

richiedel123

mark.17hmr wrote: »

I know a .223 isnt legal for deer hunting but what is the 69grn or the 75grn putting out.. would it comply with the regulations for shooting deer?? The projectile is bigger than and they are a heavier load than the 60grn minimum outlined for the .220 swift and the 22.250 ??? Just curious...

I know a lad who has a deer hunting licence for a 223. He got it this year

4200fps

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi 4200fps, some of the very best shots ive seen on deer ...inc red deer ,were taken with a .22-250s .That was going back 25years or more with on range finders,fancy scopes ..ect.
Calibers and shooters have changed since then ,i guess .
Regards,Tomcat.

I never had any doubts in 22-250's or .220 Swifts ability's for deer. Two very good rounds in the right hands. Some under estimate their ability's as they are .22caliber. Mighty caliber for Feral goats too

4200fps

richiedel123 wrote: »

I know a lad who has a deer hunting licence for a 223. He got it this year

Was it a Winchester Super Short Magnum .223?

richiedel123

Was it a Winchester Super Short Magnum .223?[/Quote]
No just a standard 223. I couldn't believe it either till I seen it for myself

rowa

i thought the wsm's were on the way out ? i looked into getting one a while back and no one seemed to be doing them.

hedzball

rowa wrote: »

i thought the wsm's were on the way out ? i looked into getting one a while back and no one seemed to be doing them.

They are..

Pure fad.. but like any fad calibre the rifles can be picked up for half nothing..

its trying to feed them is the problem






'hdz

Cass

richiedel123 wrote: »

I know a lad who has a deer hunting licence for a 223. He got it this year

richiedel123 wrote: »

No just a standard 223. I couldn't believe it either till I seen it for myself

Do me a favour. Get a picture, and block out the vital details such as name, address, etc. I would love to actually see a deer license application with a .223 on it.

Lullymore24

Ezridax wrote: »

Do me a favour. Get a picture, and block out the vital details such as name, address, etc. I would love to actually see a deer license with a .223 on it.

.223 WSSM is Deer Legal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Winchester_Super_Short_Magnum in 50 Grain or Above

OP are you sure it was .223 REM??

Cass

Lullymore24 wrote: »

.223 WSSM is Deer Legal

He said it was a standard .223:

richiedel123 wrote: »

No just a standard 223.

Hence my request.

garv123

I know some people think the .223 will kill godzilla and king kong with one shot every time but why in gods name would you even try and licence one for deer when there are so much better choices out there. following a blood trail from a .223 must be a tough job. ( someones gonna tell me deer never run when shot with a .223 :rolleyes:)

It wasn't me!

Even if some tool signed off on a licence when he submitted it he's still not entitled to shoot deer with a .223, and if caught doing so, he will be prosecuted.

*ANY* .22 centrefire which produces 1700 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle with a bullet of 55 grains or heavier is legal to shoot deer with. Here's the fun bit though, your .22-250 or .220 swift may not be legal, even though the cartridge has the potential to be legal. How many people have actually chronographed their ammo from their barrels to make sure they make the energy requirements? Same applies to some .243s, particularly with heavy, 100 grain bullets from shorter barrels. Personally I think it's silly to play it too close to the line. The .243 is fine, and is available with some properly constructed bullets for the job. Factory loads for .22 centrefires are geared towards smaller, lighter animals than deer. Me, I amn't interested in marginal at all. I want it to work right when everything conspires against me, not when everything's perfect.

Glensman

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Me, I amn't interested in marginal at all. I want it to work right when everything conspires against me, not when everything's perfect.

That's a huge +1 on that!

I'm going for a stalk tonight. So far it's a windy day, if I get a shot it will likely be off sticks. I wouldn't want to have anything less than my .270...

vixdname

I'd love to see the photocopy of the licence for using a .223 to shoot deer

Lullymore24

vixdname wrote: »

I'd love to see the photocopy of the licence for using a .223 to shoot deer

Nowhere on the Deer Hunting Licence does it say what Calibre you are using.
So would be hard to prove either way.

Fallow01

superlite wrote: »

Just after reading the wild life act 1976(ammunition and firearms)act 1977 and came across this


Centre-fire rifles of not less than ·22 calibre with a muzzle energy of not less than 1,700 foot pounds.


Ammunition.

Any bullet for use in such rifles, weighing not less than 55 grains.

Can anyone clarify this as I thought the minimum requirement was .243

Minimum legal is .2250 but the minimum recommended is .243 to ensure humane dispatch of the deer and avoid having runners.....

Cass

Excuse my bluntness, but i simply don't believe that a .223 was licensed for deer. It in no way makes the legal minimum for muzzle energy.

Even if one mistakenly was licensed, does not make it legal. No more than a semi auto centrefire licensed in error as a non restricted gun is legal.

pugw

Fallow01 wrote: »

Minimum legal is .2250 but the minimum recommended is .243 to ensure humane dispatch of the deer and avoid having runners.....

or the swift!

Half-cocked

Lullymore24 wrote: »

Nowhere on the Deer Hunting Licence does it say what Calibre you are using.
So would be hard to prove either way.

True. You put all the details on the application form, but the license has no firearm/bullet details on it. You are simply licensed to hunt deer in accordance with the law, which means:

Centre-fire rifles of not less than ·22 calibre with a muzzle energy of not less than 1,700 foot pounds and a bullet weight of not less than 55gr (NPWS were insisting on 60gr a year or two back).

If some one got a license for .223, then they either told porkies on the application or NPWS screwed up. Either way, they are breaking the law if they hunt deer with it.

Lullymore24

Half-cocked wrote: »

True. You put all the details on the application form, but the license has no firearm/bullet details on it. You are simply licensed to hunt deer in accordance with the law, which means:

Centre-fire rifles of not less than ·22 calibre with a muzzle energy of not less than 1,700 foot pounds and a bullet weight of not less than 55gr (NPWS were insisting on 60gr a year or two back).

If some one got a license for .223, then they either told porkies on the application or NPWS screwed up. Either way, they are breaking the law if they hunt deer with it.

In a Nutshell.
Lots of Lads like to spin a yarn, especially when there are people foolish enough to listen to it.
If I held a Deer Hunting permit and a .22lr Licence and told the same story I bet there are people out there who would believe it (Who reads the small print these days)

4200fps

Sure a photocopy or photo of the deer licence will prove nothing at all.
He simply used a serial number of a deer caliber and put down the caliber etc 243,308 or what ever and sent it off and he got his licence that way. No way he put down .223. I can get a serial number for any caliber I wish by making one phone call even if I never buy the gun

Lullymore24

4200fps wrote: »

Sure a photocopy or photo of the deer licence will prove nothing at all.
He simply used a serial number of a deer caliber and put down the caliber etc 243,308 or what ever and sent it off and he got his licence that way. No way he put down .223. I can get a serial number for any caliber I wish by making one phone call even if I never buy the gun

False Declaration = Criminal Offence

Cass

So they lie?

In that case they are no better than poachers, and deserve what they get.

4200fps

Lullymore24 wrote: »

False Declaration = Criminal Offence

True but its fact. It goes on. Actually for example I wish to buy a rifle caliber .243 and I send of the particulars and get my deer licence but in the mean while I change my mind and go for a 6.5x55 instead with the dealer. No crime done there and does go on. Deer licence has arrived and i'm shooting them legally.
Caliber of what you use is not printed on deer licences. Not on mine anyways

richiedel123

4200fps wrote: »

Sure a photocopy or photo of the deer licence will prove nothing at all.
He simply used a serial number of a deer caliber and put down the caliber etc 243,308 or what ever and sent it off and he got his licence that way. No way he put down .223. I can get a serial number for any caliber I wish by making one phone call even if I never buy the gun

The application went in saying it was a 223 with the proper serial number and everything.I seen the application and all before it went in. He put down 55 grain bullets on the application and they rang back saying we don't have them on file we have different ones would you use these and he said yes thats grand and got his licence.
I in no way condone it. I said not to apply he is only wasting his time but he proved me wrong. I personally think it'sddefinitely not good enough for deer. I think the lowest limit should be 243 anyway. 22 250 is a light enough round too. If ya cant get a head or neck shot chances are ur deer is gonna run once hit and prob not found.

rowa

No one has mentioned the 5.6x57 rws yet , i know a guy with one and he swears by it , the bullets are .22 in calibre but are heavier in weight and construction ~ 70grains, only fly in the ointment is the cost, €80 a box !

http://www.chuckhawks.com/5-6x57.htm

4200fps

richiedel123 wrote: »

The application went in saying it was a 223 with the proper serial number and everything.I seen the application and all before it went in. He put down 55 grain bullets on the application and they rang back saying we don't have them on file we have different ones would you use these and he said yes thats grand and got his licence.
I in no way condone it. I said not to apply he is only wasting his time but he proved me wrong. I personally think it'sddefinitely not good enough for deer. I think the lowest limit should be 243 anyway. 22 250 is a light enough round too. If ya cant get a head or neck shot chances are ur deer is gonna run once hit and prob not found.

I'll not disagree but its a one off mistake, Jez I got some hassle with the .220swift when I mentioned 55grain. They said no will not be accepted only 60 grain. I've heard few reports of guys few years back who killed several deer with a 223 and much a weaker round like the .22 Hornet too but i'm not going down that road in conversation. Its all down to shot placement no matter what caliber it is as long as it has reasonable energy and I think the law of using a caliber that produces energy of 1700ft/lbs or greater is a good law in this matter

Cass

richiedel123 wrote: »

He put down 55 grain bullets on the application and they rang back saying we don't have them on file we have different ones would you use these and he said yes thats grand and got his licence.

That's unbelievable. NO .223 round/bullet is sufficient. So instead of telling him to go off and get a proper rifle for the job they offer him another round that's still not LEGAL?

mark.17hmr

Well lads this seems to have rightly kicked off a debate.. I agree if a rifle is not up to standards set out by the NPWS it shouldnt be used.. I just thought that there being availablity of the min 60grn round and being of the .22 calibre the .223 was overlooked but didnt know about the 1700ft/lbs.. as you can guess i dont shoot deer.. went with the uncle once and loved it hopefully get out this year before the season closes...

richiedel123

Ezridax wrote: »

richiedel123 wrote: »

He put down 55 grain bullets on the application and they rang back saying we don't have them on file we have different ones would you use these and he said yes thats grand and got his licence.

That's unbelievable. NO .223 round/bullet is sufficient. So instead of telling him to go off and get a proper rifle for the job they offer him another round that's still not LEGAL?

I think they said use a 69 grain bullet it's ok with that one. I think it's s##t that he got his licence. They must not care about what u use to kill the deer anymore. It looks like they just want them down in numbers if they are granting licences for 223. It couldn't be a mistake surely because they rang back saying to use a different bullet and it will be ok

tomcat220t

richiedel123 wrote: »

I think they said use a 69 grain bullet it's ok with that one. I think it's s##t that he got his licence. They must not care about what u use to kill the deer anymore. It looks like they just want them down in numbers if they are granting licences for 223. It couldn't be a mistake surely because they rang back saying to use a different bullet and it will be ok

Hi richiedel123,even with the .223 ....what 69gr hunting rounds are there ?
Regards ,Tomcat .

richiedel123

tomcat220t wrote: »

richiedel123 wrote: »

I think they said use a 69 grain bullet it's ok with that one. I think it's s##t that he got his licence. They must not care about what u use to kill the deer anymore. It looks like they just want them down in numbers if they are granting licences for 223. It couldn't be a mistake surely because they rang back saying to use a different bullet and it will be ok

Hi richiedel123,even with the .223 ....what 69gr hunting rounds are there ?
Regards ,Tomcat .

I don't have a clue lad don't have a 223 so couldn't tell ya bullets just relaying the details is all

4200fps

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi richiedel123,even with the .223 ....what 69gr hunting rounds are there ?
Regards ,Tomcat .

Federal and Fiocchi have 69gr for .223 rem

Cass

richiedel123 wrote: »

I think they said use a 69 grain bullet it's ok with that one. I think it's s##t that he got his licence. They must not care about what u use to kill the deer anymore. It looks like they just want them down in numbers if they are granting licences for 223. It couldn't be a mistake surely because they rang back saying to use a different bullet and it will be ok

The thing about all this is the license is basically invalid. The rifle is not legal so even if they gave it to him, if he is stopped with a .223, and ranger worth his salt will know a .223 is not sufficient, and he is going to find himself in a whole lot of crap.

As i said above. I met a lad once with a semi auto who had an unrestricted license. He said it's not his problem that the Gardaí made the mistake. Great attitude.

Same thing here. Irrespective of who is at fault the rifle is illegal, and hence the license on it invalid.

tomcat220t

4200fps wrote: »

Federal and Fiocchi have 69gr for .223 rem

Hi 4200fps,are the above 69gr .223 rounds HUNTING ammo or target ?

richiedel123

[/QUOTE]
The thing about all this is the license is basically invalid. The rifle is not legal so even if they gave it to him, if he is stopped with a .223, and ranger worth his salt will know a .223 is not sufficient, and he is going to find himself in a whole lot of crap.

As i said above. I met a lad once with a semi auto who had an unrestricted license. He said it's not his problem that the Gardaí made the mistake. Great attitude.

Same thing here. Irrespective of who is at fault the rifle is illegal, and hence the license on it invalid.[/Quote]
That is the truth. I said it to him it cant be right and to be careful. In fairness the people in npws should be more careful and shouldn't give out licences like that

4200fps

The ranger would lift it on the spot without a doubt I recon. I wonder if he said to the ranger he home loaded the rounds with Semtex and they are putting out over 1700ftlbs Anyways as long as he's killing them humanely and causing no harm but he should go up a level

cookimonster

Just a side note, was given a medium sized carcus last season to process, friend of a friend job. Two separate wounds, lot of prime meat wasted. Found remains of one of the rounds under the skin, entered one shoulder blade exited the opposite blade and lodged under hide. Me being me measured the base of the round and even allowing for distortion it fell short of the supposed .243 caliber that it was ment to have been shot with.
When I questioned the shooter he told me it had been a long shoot (200m), hit it in the hind quarter when it moved and then dropped it with the secound. When I asked about the caliber saying it looked smaller then .243, he went red, asked did I shot my self and then admitted it was a .223.
Needless to say I told my friend to tell his friend not to bring his 'butchered kills' around to me for processing.
Worse still I can across other licensed shooters who knew about this and did'nt think this was an issue. So here we have a typical senario a guy with a gun, shooting beyond his and his guns capability

4200fps

Impact of 1000ft/lbs of energy from any caliber will knock any deer with good shot placement and you will see guys cry when they have a runner from using a big caliber reasons for was bad shot placement. Some of the best .243 ammunition produces 1000ft/lbs at 300 yards. I wouldn't hesitate to cull deer shooting of the bi-pod at 250 yards with a .243. Some deer are harder knocked than others. During the rutt you will find most stags reluctant to go down, In general Sika are the hardest knocked in our country. Reds be the easiest but not during or coming up to the rutt as they be the hardest. They be like Arnold Schwarzenegger's

Sparks

Deer licence has arrived and i'm shooting them legally

Nope. You're shooting with a licence issued based off information you knew was incorrect but didn't correct. Renders the licence void, strictly speaking, like getting an unrestricted licence issued by a super for a restricted firearm.

4200fps wrote: »

True but its fact. It goes on.

It's still a crime.
This is the kind of thing that politicians love to seize on for campaigns as well, usually leading to the kind of crackdowns we saw in '06 and '09.
And I'd bet euros to danishes that the very people who are doing this and causing the ruckus would be among the very loudest voices complaining about the changes as being daft...

4200fps

It's still a crime.
This is the kind of thing that politicians love to seize on for campaigns as well, usually leading to the kind of crackdowns we saw in '06 and '09.
And I'd bet euros to danishes that the very people who are doing this and causing the ruckus would be among the very loudest voices complaining about the changes as being daft...[/QUOTE]

I see where your coming from but if you got a deer licence for a 243 for example and later on during the season you bought a 6.5x55 for example you are not breaking the law as its a legal caliber for shooting deer