Samaritans: Why 3,000 middle-aged men die by suicide each year (in the UK & Ireland)

Lyaiera

Piliger wrote: »

One of the contributing factors to this topic, imho, is not just that men don't talk, but that too many people nowadays are not interested in listening and acting to help their friends and family relations. There is too much politically correct arms-length distancing going on. In my view we need to return to a much more 'nosier and interfering' attitude in life.

You say that part of the solution is that people should be "more 'nosier and interfering'" but that's not something I can translate from your abstraction to real world action. Could you explain more?

Piliger

Lyaiera wrote: »

You say that part of the solution is that people should be "more 'nosier and interfering'" but that's not something I can translate from your abstraction to real world action. Could you explain more?

What I mean is ... many times over the years (I am 50+ and was married) I have seen people among my extended relations and friends have troubles from time to time, or found out about it post facto. But I have also listened as members of that groups have made comments about 'leaving to him to sort it out', 'not my business', 'a man has to sort out his own life', 'I don't want to get sucked into his mess' and many many more kinds of comments. For me, I tend to reach out and ask if there is anything I can do. But I am regularly deflated by other people's isolationism.
If people reached out more to friends that are suffering at an early stage, it would share the burden and lessen it snowballing. And not just talking ... but action too.
For example with debt ... if people reached out early, before it snowballed, it can enable it to be dealt with before it becomes too much for anyone to deal with .. and hence trigger a suicidal episode.
My, albeit only personal, experience with crises... is that very often they result in situations that could have been nipped in the bud had there been someone willing to intercede earlier.

Piliger

martinnew wrote: »

Hi, You are correct, The Samaritans are not expects, in the sense they may not be trained psychologists or psychiatrists. But what they do have are some guidelines on some Do's and Don'ts. I setup an online forum to help others deal with Suicide and I got their opinion on the Do's.. One of the Don'ts was not to discuss the HOW's people did it, not to discuss the details, such as what a person put in a note. No to setup a memorial where the took their life, etc..

I see above someone got offended about how I posted.. Well I just relayed what I was told.. And I am no expert. So If any of you are expects please feel free to contradict me to set the record straight. Just a sensitive topic.

But this is for two main reasons - the risk of their liability if they are accused of complicity, and the idiotic perception - in my view - that somehow learning methods increases the chances to acting. I believe this is both patronising and utter nonsense and should not be the basis for censoring or restricting open discussion between adults on any topic.

I was hoping that more men would get involved in this discussion. On my online forum 70% are women and there is not much active involvement from a male point of view on a tragedy that takes 80% of the victims of suicide.

Unfortunately this is the way of the world.

As with the other threads on Mens Rights, which is directly relevant to this thread, it is an uphill battle to wake men up to issues they should be taking an interest in.

Men are problem solvers ... they tend not to be interested in something unless it affects them personally. By hammering away with topics like these we can hopefully try to chip away and raise the profile of these issues.

Call Me Jimmy

For me personally, yea I've gone to the train station numerous times with the intent (telling nobody) and just couldn't physically bring myself to do it. I don't think anyone talking about methods would cause a suicide, I agree it should be openly discussed because one thing worse than suicide imo is a failed attempt that could leave someone as a vegetable/ severe medical difficulties.

LeeHoffmann

Men are problem solvers

:rolleyes: ridiculous

martinnew

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

For me personally, yea I've gone to the train station numerous times with the intent (telling nobody) and just couldn't physically bring myself to do it. I don't think anyone talking about methods would cause a suicide, I agree it should be openly discussed because one thing worse than suicide imo is a failed attempt that could leave someone as a vegetable/ severe medical difficulties.

Do you mind me asking what were the problems in you life that made you consider ending it? What has helped you coup with your problems?

Call Me Jimmy

martinnew wrote: »

Do you mind me asking what were the problems in you life that made you consider ending it? What has helped you coup with your problems?

Don't mind at all. Young man, used to be attractive, hit my early twenties and went downhill completely, aged 20 years and now I feel odd, a young man with no prospects.

Unfortunately I don't cope, time just has a habit of continuing to pass when you don't kill yourself. So that's all that's happening now.

the_syco

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Male ROI suicides in 2010 = 386 deaths for all men.

For a country such as Ireland where suicide is not always mentioned "out of respect of the family", I'd wonder if the figure isn't a lot higher.

mikemac1 wrote: »

Nobody knows.

Not fair imo to look at cases and then want them reclassified as not accidents.
Unless you find a note or they told someone what they planned it's an accident

This is why it's not marked down as suicide when the car veers off a straight road and hits a tree at max speed.

I remember a Garda saying that at least 10% of these must be suicide, but they must follow the families wishes in not marking it as a suicide. Cannot find the article, though.

bnt wrote: »

It's part of the male psyche to value action, and so, in a fundamental sense, just talking about the problem will never be sufficient.

What some men don't realise is that they don't have all the answers, but someone else may know of an answer. You talk about your problem, and the doctor may have an answer to deal with it, or be able to point you towards someone that has.

If talking was not classed as "sharing your feeling" but as "help us help you", I'd wonder if the affected men would see it as a manly solution (akin to the "workshop" idea).

martinnew wrote: »

I know suicide is an issue that effects Men and Women.. But I think Men are more drastic with this nuclear option, While women may attempt it, more of them survive it than men.

Generally, women use it as a cry for help, in a place where they can be found, etc. Men are often found dead, either hanging from a tree, or under a train.

Please note, I used the word "generally".

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

:rolleyes: ridiculous

Care to elaborate?

Piliger

All of this talk about men not being able to talk, as an explanation for higher male suicide, is a sexist red herring imho. It is used to wipe away the facts that there are a lot more pressures on men than women throughout our lives. Women also have a lot more options when they run into trouble. How many refuges are there for men ? No. The cause of the huge excess in male suicide is not men's inability ot talk ... and we should not accept this as a catch all excuse.

the_syco

Piliger wrote: »

All of this talk about men not being able to talk

IMO, I'm thinking it's a product of the saying; "big boys don't cry". Many men will thus keep in their emotions, not wanting to tell anyone thinking that this will make people think that they're weak. Sure, it's all a load of sh|te, but it's not a case of "men not being able to talk", but a case of "some men being conditioned not to talk about their emotions of sadness".

iptba

Piliger wrote: »

All of this talk about men not being able to talk, as an explanation for higher male suicide, is a sexist red herring imho. It is used to wipe away the facts that there are a lot more pressures on men than women throughout our lives. Women also have a lot more options when they run into trouble. How many refuges are there for men ? No. The cause of the huge excess in male suicide is not men's inability ot talk ... and we should not accept this as a catch all excuse.

Both could be factors.

martinnew

Piliger wrote: »

All of this talk about men not being able to talk, as an explanation for higher male suicide, is a sexist red herring imho. It is used to wipe away the facts that there are a lot more pressures on men than women throughout our lives. Women also have a lot more options when they run into trouble. How many refuges are there for men ? No. The cause of the huge excess in male suicide is not men's inability ot talk ... and we should not accept this as a catch all excuse.

I agree, its not the Catch all excuse, but its a factor.

Other factors for Male suicide, in my opinion are:-

1. Loss of male role models for kids. Nearly 80% plus primary school teachers are women. Pressures on some men mean they work 10-12 hrs a day and don't spend time with they children.

2. Loss of employment, For a man to be out of work is far worse than for a women, I know this is extremely sexist, but its the reality. How a man deals with unemployment on a personal level is very different to how a woman deals with it. I am not saying that all the boys should get jobs first and what's left over goes to the Girls.. But not having anything to do for a man lowers self esteem and does cause a lot of depression. Many women share my male view on this.

3. Linked to point one. When a boy does not have good support and role models, he ends up on paths in life that don't help, taking wrong career choices, doing jobs that don't fulfil them.

There are many other reasons to male suicide.. but I think if you get a good start on life with good support and you enter the Job that is most suited to you it makes all the difference.

eviltwin

Piliger wrote: »

It is used to wipe away the facts that there are a lot more pressures on men than women throughout our lives.

Like what? Not being smart btw just curious. I'd imagine both sexes have it pretty hard.

jill_valentine

Piliger wrote: »

All of this talk about men not being able to talk, as an explanation for higher male suicide, is a sexist red herring imho.

Statistically, women seek treatment for depression more frequently than men, but men take their lives with no warning exponentially more. So I don't think you can really make that assertion, tbh. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that women are more likely to speak to somebody about it - professional or otherwise - whereas men are more likely to internalise it, because society considers that the "manly" reaction.

Piliger

jill_valentine wrote: »

Statistically, women seek treatment for depression more frequently than men, but men take their lives with no warning exponentially more. So I don't think you can really make that assertion, tbh. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that women are more likely to speak to somebody about it - professional or otherwise - whereas men are more likely to internalise it, because society considers that the "manly" reaction.

You continue to assume an underlying principle that 'talking' about it is some kind of magic panacea. I see no evidence of this.

jill_valentine

Piliger wrote: »

You continue to assume an underlying principle that 'talking' about it is some kind of magic panacea. I see no evidence of this.

I'm not assuming anything, I promise you. And I'm not sure why you're so hostile to the concept, to be honest?

Piliger

jill_valentine wrote: »

I'm not assuming anything, I promise you. And I'm not sure why you're so hostile to the concept, to be honest?

Why do you feel the ned to use such aggressive language ? Because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am hostile ?

I have asked for evidence. I have questioned your assumptions. Yet you respond with no argument, no evidence and no real response except accusations ? why ?

jill_valentine

Piliger wrote: »

Why do you feel the ned to use such aggressive language ? Because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am hostile ?

I have asked for evidence. I have questioned your assumptions. Yet you respond with no argument, no evidence and no real response except accusations ? why ?

....?

LeeHoffmann

so we seem to be saying that more men than women kill themselves either because
a. women seek help more often than men
or
b. men´s lives are harder than women´s.

well I know which one makes more sense to me o.O

Care to elaborate?

does it really need elaboration? It´s a stupid stereotype. There are no people who aren´t problem-solvers. It also seems self-contradictory to state that the gender that kills itself most often and seeks help less often is the better problem-solver. Suicide = problem not solved. I think this very idea that men are better problem solvers could also lead men to think that they should be great problem solvers, thus when they can´t fix their problems on their own, they feel like a failure which only makes them feel worse. They then don´t seek help from others because seeking help only points out their inadequacy in solving their own problems.

Piliger

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

so we seem to be saying that more men than women kill themselves either because
a. women seek help more often than men
or
b. men´s lives are harder than women´s.

well I know which one makes more sense to me o.O


does it really need elaboration? It´s a stupid stereotype. There are no people who aren´t problem-solvers. It also seems self-contradictory to state that the gender that kills itself most often and seeks help less often is the better problem-solver. Suicide = problem not solved. I think this very idea that men are better problem solvers could also lead men to think that they should be great problem solvers, thus when they can´t fix their problems on their own, they feel like a failure which only makes them feel worse. They then don´t seek help from others because seeking help only points out their inadequacy in solving their own problems.

In my view this kind of unhelpful prejudicial and sexist fixation is part of what contributes to the whole gender problem we have in our society.

LeeHoffmann

In my view this kind of unhelpful prejudicial and sexist fixation is part of what contributes to the whole gender problem we have in our society.

if you mean the stereotype that you yourself perpetuated, then I agree

The Black Oil

This coroner's comments strike me as bizarre, and a bit frustrating.

Piliger

The Black Oil wrote: »

This coroner's comments strike me as bizarre, and a bit frustrating.

A coroner ... commenting on an area about which he knows absolutely nothing. Hardly surprising he comes out with such drivel.

iptba

The Black Oil wrote: »

This coroner's comments strike me as bizarre, and a bit frustrating.

Yes. What we need is research i.e. you could even look in to such issues with longitudinal.*

The only concern I would have is that not all possibilities would be looked at. Our gender studies departments are hardly bastions of open-mindedness and impartiality. And they influence what is seen as acceptable to say.

*However, I have come across other research now and again that physical abuse when a child, can lead to poorer mental and physical health when older so not convinced by the corporal punishment theory. Lots of ex-military people take their own lives and I see what they go through as almost like corporal punishment.

Piliger

iptba wrote: »

Yes. What we need is research i.e. you could even look in to such issues with longitudinal.*

The only concern I would have is that not all possibilities would be looked at. Our gender studies departments are hardly bastions of open-mindedness and impartiality. And they influence what is seen as acceptable to say.

*However, I have come across other research now and again that physical abuse when a child, can lead to poorer mental and physical health when older so not convinced by the corporal punishment theory. Lots of ex-military people take their own lives and I see what they go through as almost like corporal punishment.

Also back the day ..... when this idiot thought we had a golden age ... suicide was probably vastly under recorded and this assumption of his that suicide is more prevalent is a bunch of hooey ...

Reku

It might be from an animé but I think this quote sums it up reasonably well:

Maes Hughes: In general, men prefer to let their actions speak instead of words. When they're in pain, they don't want to burden anyone with it, not if they can help it. They don't want anyone to worry about them. That's how they are.

After-all, why spread pain around unnecessarily?

LeeHoffmann

^ Are you saying that men don´t talk about things or seek help because they don´t want to be a burden? I know some people (men and women) who are like this and I think we can all understand that kind of thinking to some extent. Maybe it´s more common in men, I don´t know. Would talking about this or asking for help be a burden? I guess it can be sometimes, depending on the people (the helpers). I think though that most people would prefer to be ´burdened´ with the problems of somebody close to them than run the risk of losing that person, so it´s an awful pity that some people think this way. I guess though, you think you can handle the problem on your own and commit yourself to doing that - and then things can just snowball, and it gets harder and harder to ask for help.


Im also inclined to agree that suicide was probably greatly under-reported back in the day

iptba

Just an early heads up on the following, upcoming report. It may get its own thread at the time:

Launch of Young Men and Suicide Project Report
Since March 2011, the Men‟s Health Forum in Ireland (MHFI) http://www.mhfi.org/ has been working on an all-Ireland „Young Men and Suicide Project‟ (YMSP). This cross-Border initiative was jointly funded by the National Office for Suicide Prevention http://www.nosp.ie/ in the Republic of Ireland, and the Public Health Agency http://www.publichealth.hscni.net/ in Northern Ireland. The aim of YMSP was to identify a range of possible means to promote positive mental health among young men on the island of Ireland, and to assess the efficacy of these approaches. A full report on the project is now being finalised, and will be launched on Wednesday 23rd January 2013. Keep an eye on the MHFI website (www.mhfi.org), Facebook page (www.facebook.com/menshealthforumireland) and Twitter site (www.twitter.com/menshealthIRL) for details of how to get a copy of the report and/or attend the launch.

(from the December 2012 edition of the newsletter of the Men’s Health Forum in Ireland)

Pawwed Rig

A really tragic story. It is often easy to take pops at Politicians but many are under huge pressure.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/political-world-is-rocked-by-tragic-death-of-junior-minister-3334005.html

Lets hope something good comes out of it by raising awareness.

iptba

This story has got some coverage in the UK, including on Sky http://news.sky.com/story/1068998/huge-problem-of-male-suicide-rate-in-uk , today. Age group mentioned here 30-44.

http://metro.co.uk/2013/03/24/suicide-biggest-male-killer-3556960/

Suicide is now the biggest killer of young men in Britain, a charity has claimed.

Three young males take their own life on average every day across the country – and the recession is thought to be playing a part in many of the deaths.

The latest figures show that the suicide rate rose significantly in 2011 with 4,552 men taking their own life out of a total of 6,045 people.

The highest rate was in the male age bracket 30-44. Suicide in this group accounted for more deaths than road accidents, murder and HIV/Aids combined.

<etc.>