Samaritans: Why 3,000 middle-aged men die by suicide each year (in the UK & Ireland)

Priori · 26-09-2012 4:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

my friend wife left him for someone else he knew of notting i swear she also took the kid he couldnt cope only a few days without his family the kids he hung himself

That's terribly sad. Sorry to hear that.

Priori · 26-09-2012 4:32pm

I bought this book recently and would certainly recommend that anyone with an interest in this very serious subject read it:

Why People Die By Suicide - Thomas Joiner

Thomas20 · 27-09-2012 12:01am

up for anything wrote: »

The second reason, in my opinion, is that most women are constantly needed. Their children need them, elderly parents need them, their friends need them. Being needed is a powerful reason to stay alive even if it's one of the reasons for contemplating suicide. Committing suicide for many women isn't an option because the guilt of letting down so many people that need you by killing yourself would kill you before you could act on it. Men seem to see suicide as an option whereby they free the people in their lives and don't see it as a destructive action towards those same people.

Maybe I'm talking a load of old cobblers but it makes sense to me.

I actually agree with your second point more than your first. Over the past 30 - 40 years the role men play in society/the household has diminished greatly. They are no longer the main breadwinners. The patriarchal society has been shattered. Many guys don't have the necessary skills to cope when they reach their late teens/early twenties leading to sense of hopelessness and depression.
Stats are old but speak for themselves.

bnt · 27-09-2012 11:07pm

Piliger wrote: »

Firstly I believe a lot of the time men take their own lives for a reason that cannot be done away with by counselling and talking, and they make a rational logical decision to do so. That will always happen and it will be far more prevalent in a deep recession like this.

I agree with this too, but come at it from a slightly different angle. It's part of the male psyche to value action, and so, in a fundamental sense, just talking about the problem will never be sufficient. Talking does nothing to address real underlying issues affecting men. Lack of work, debt, loss of access to children, and more - these things are objectively real, not the products of an overactive imagination or a "bad attitude".

I have (thankfully) little experience of suicide in my own family, though I have seen it in the family of a friend. From that, reading, and other responses in this thread, I think it can't be sufficiently emphasised that suicide can appear, to a man in distress, as a constructive action, a way of retaking a measure of control over a life no longer under his control - and improving the lives of others by removing himself from them. Shakespeare had Hamlet ask the question thus: should he "take arms against a sea of troubles / And by opposing end them?"

coffee_cake · 27-09-2012 11:15pm

Sleepy wrote: »

It's gross generalisation but based on the number of times I've upset female friends by suggesting potential solutions to problems instead of empathising with them about how awful their problem is, I'd wager there's a kernel of truth in it...

I guess that must be my male brain again; sometimes I listen to people moan about the same things day in and day out, things that don't need to be dwelled on and endured. So I say, do something about it. Stop telling me this for ages without getting up and doing anything about it, and going quiet on me when I say so. I'm all sympathy and support, but things don't magically happen on their own.

Still, there is a lot to be said for letting off steam on the small things.
It's so annoying when x happens. I'm so broke this month. Y is really ticking me off. etc. Let off the small things and you might be a bit better able to handle the rest. It won't magically present solutions, but it might put you in a better frame of mind to think of some, or even just get along until something is able to be done.

mikemac1 · 28-09-2012 7:06am

Sleepy wrote: »

When you consider that a lot of these cases involve car crashes where there's no passengers or other vehicles involved, it would probably make the figure even more compelling when put beside road death stats.

Pembily wrote: »

Definitely, the numbers would be higher then. I don't agree with classing them as accidental deaths.

True

But then nobody knows for sure for each case

Lots will be people falling asleep at the wheel.
That's a killer too and can always happen on a straight piece of road where it's difficult to understand how a driver would crash

Are people going to speculate over the local night porter or factory foreman who finishes their shift? Or the man working 70 hours a week and crashes?

Nobody knows.

Not fair imo to look at cases and then want them reclassified as not accidents.
Unless you find a note or they told someone what they planned it's an accident

jackofalltrades · 30-09-2012 3:51pm

bnt wrote: »

I agree with this too, but come at it from a slightly different angle. It's part of the male psyche to value action, and so, in a fundamental sense, just talking about the problem will never be sufficient. Talking does nothing to address real underlying issues affecting men. Lack of work, debt, loss of access to children, and more - these things are objectively real, not the products of an overactive imagination or a "bad attitude".

The real issues affecting men are how the deal with the underlying issues that you have listed above. Talking has everything to do with this.

A lot of men don't talk to anyone about how their feeling. Preferring to remain strong and keep them bottled up. Talking to someone else brings a fresh perspective and balance to these feelings. Talking is possibly the most effective tool available in reducing suicides.

Men need to learn to put less pressure on themselves. The also need to learn how to develop better coping strategies. If having a job is what provides you with a significant part of your self esteem then your at risk in the current times of economic uncertainty.

Priori · 01-10-2012 10:58am

bnt wrote:

It's part of the male psyche to value action, and so, in a fundamental sense, just talking about the problem will never be sufficient. Talking does nothing to address real underlying issues affecting men. Lack of work, debt, loss of access to children, and more - these things are objectively real, not the products of an overactive imagination or a "bad attitude".

Your conception of what talking entails really needs serious reconsideration. Talking can encompass anything - any conceivable subject - including planning action, of course.

Talking is most useful when it addresses things which are objectively real, and a person's state of mind and emotional disposition is no less objectively real than a table or chair; it has a causal impact on events in the real world. Changing one's attitude, irrespective of whether it's deemed "bad" or "good", can be the difference between life and death, quite literally.

Pawwed Rig · 03-10-2012 6:55pm

A telling article about how suicide is prioritised in Ireland (bolding by me)

From Examiner yesterday
Key suicide prevention post empty as rate soars

By Catherine Shanahan
Tuesday, October 02, 2012
The key post of director at the National Office for Suicide Prevention remains unfilled as figures show male suicide has rocketed by almost 140% in the past 30 years.
It is a year since director Geoff Day resigned and his replacement, appointed in July, stayed just three months in the job before being seconded to the Department of Health. Last month, the HSE expressed confidence a permanent director would finally be in place this month.

However, Martin Rogan, HSE assistant national director for mental health, yesterday conceded it was more likely to be mid-November before an appointment is made. Mr Rogan is currently acting in the post.

Noel Smyth, property developer and founder of suicide charity the 3Ts (Turn the Tide of Suicide) said the vacuum at the head of the NOSP was quite "telling" of the Government’s attitude to suicide.

"It’s really quite telling that they haven’t appointed somebody yet given the level of concern and urge-ncy we believe this issue deserves," said Mr Smyth.

"The fact that the key person at the office has not been appointed is very worrying, and we would say that the Government needs to take the whole issue of suicide a lot more seriously."

Mr Smyth has repeatedly called for the setting up of a Suicide Prevention Authority modelled on the Road Safety Authority.

Suicide prevention was identified as a key public health concern within the Programme for Government. Geoff Day resigned due to resource constraints, despite Health Minister James Reilly saying suicide levels were a "priority for this Government".

Last night, Mental Health Minister Kathleen Lynch said she had made very strong representations for a replacement to be appointed and she asked that the recruitment process be speeded up.

"We had somebody who we felt was eminently capable and they were offered the job but they didn’t want it, so it wasn’t from the want of trying to fill it," she said.

In June, while opening the Console Centre for Suicide Bereavement Counselling Services, in Swinford, Co Mayo, Taoiseach Enda Kenny said mental health should not be viewed as "a sort of Cinderella area of the services".

"It is so central and so sensitive to our communities that it deserves the very best from the Government and that it shall have," he said.

Funding for the NOSP increased by €3m this year, bringing its budget to just over €7m, half that of the Road Safety Authority, even though far fewer lives are lost on Irish roads.

Figures from the NOSP annual report 2011 show 552 deaths by suicide occurred in 2009, a rate of 12.4 deaths per 100,000 population. The figure marks a record high.

Cork had the highest rate of 15.2 per 100,000 in counties with large urban centres. Carlow had the highest rate overall, at 16.7 per 100,000, while the lowest rates are in Dublin and Sligo respectively (both 8.9 per 100,000).

Preliminary figures for 2011 show 525 deaths due to suicide.

Kimia · 04-10-2012 1:33am

Piliger wrote: »

You don't seem to understand - this thread is not about helping you understand men. You clearly have a low view of them from some sad experience you may have had.

I really don't know what you think you are contributing to the discussion. You have no insight into men's behaviour. You clearly have no insight into men's life experience. You seem to have only one line of thought which is to put down men and their need to have equal rights, clearly from a biased position of being more interested in women's 'plight'.

I think this is a really unfair comment.

It's my understanding that this thread is here exactly for that reason - to help people understand men, and why men have a greater propensity for suicide than women in Irish society.

I think that society's expectations of men and women and how they differ from each other contribute greatly to the perceived isolation suicidal people feel. A man without purpose (and society's notion of a man's purpose is to provide for his family and to be manly/stoic and unfeeling) feels shame, isolation and hopelessness - three emotions that greatly increase the likelihood of suicide.

The same could be said for women but our role/ purpose / society's notion of our purpose has gone through a greater change in the last 100 or even 50 or so years.

Traditional gender roles have stayed much more rigid for men than for women in the past however many years. I think there's a lot more pressure on men to conform to these gender roles and as such, if you're a man and you diverge from these roles, you are isolated. You may feel ashamed. As a result you feel hopeless and lonely. Again we're back to those key emotions which all contribute to feeling suicidal.

The most effective way to decrease suicidal thoughts in yourself or in others is to decrease the isolation. The dangerous thing is that once you're in a pit of hopelessness you're likely not going to care about decreasing your isolation. I fully believe that all humans have the right to self-determine however I equally believe that if society were to put measures in place to protect marginalised and isolated individuals (like increased awareness of the Samaritans, and intense educational training on issues such as bullying etc), suicide would decrease.

But it needs to become less of a shameful taboo if there's any hope of any of that happening. Which is why it's good to air out the preconceived notions and different opinions.

MC Homicidal Maniac · 04-10-2012 5:49am

I look forward to my eventual suicide.

jill_valentine · 04-10-2012 5:56am

... male suicide has rocketed by almost 140% in the past 30 years....

... Funding for the NOSP increased by €3m this year, bringing its budget to just over €7m, half that of the Road Safety Authority, even though far fewer lives are lost on Irish roads...

Good God, that's scandalous.

I mean, everybody has a vague idea that suicide is a bit of a problem in this country, but those figures are still shocking.

eliot756 · 04-10-2012 6:43am

That's why every man deserved to be laid. Prostitution should be legal. When you are poor, don't get laid, and 70% of your life is over, you wonder wtf have I done with my life.

hawkwind23 · 04-10-2012 11:35am

a very emotive subject.
sadly due to relationship breakdowns men are now not only killing themselves

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9579686/Father-who-killed-children-was-rider-of-Sefton-survivor-of-Hyde-Park-IRA-bomb-attack.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9404755/Father-kills-children-after-mothers-midlife-crisis-note.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/29/massachusetts-man-shoots-son-daughter

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2187699/Damian-Rzeszowski-Father-killed-6-including-wife-children-face-marriage-break-up.html

the above all in the past couple of months.

very disturbing

Kimia · 04-10-2012 1:51pm

jill_valentine wrote: »

Good God, that's scandalous.

I mean, everybody has a vague idea that suicide is a bit of a problem in this country, but those figures are still shocking.

I wonder if the number represents the fact that more deaths are being ruled 'suicide' in the last 30 years, compared to before. Suicide was such a taboo that the family would always argue for it to be 'death by misadventure' so it wasn't recorded properly until recently.

Doesn't take away from the fact that suicide is a huge problem but it's not a new phenomenon.

jill_valentine · 10-10-2012 12:28am

True for you.

Still horrifying though, as you say. And I'd just like to clarify, when I said "A bit of a problem" I meant that sarcastically in the sense that it's a huge problem. Rereading it makes me look like I was Mrs. Doyle'ing it down, I didn't intend that at all.

The fact is, our response to mental and psychological health in this country is woeful, and young men suffer the consequences unduly. My younger cousin had a crisis breakdown a few years ago and it was an eye opener. The chap was literally catatonic for about two days, but both the resistance from his immediate family to getting any help and the shocking inability of the service available to provide it, blew my mind.

Piliger · 11-10-2012 6:52pm

Kimia wrote: »

I think this is a really unfair comment.

yet you offer no basis for this statement.

It's my understanding that this thread is here exactly for that reason - to help people understand men, and why men have a greater propensity for suicide than women in Irish society.

Which supports the very validity of my statement.

Noel Dempseys Den · 11-10-2012 7:09pm

My relationship was in crisis last year due to my UK partner's intransigence over an issue with property that I had no control over. The word "wallow" was regularly used at me. It is one of the most hateful and dismissive words in the English language and the relationship did not survive. I am glad that I did.

Defiler Of The Coffin · 11-10-2012 7:40pm

Thomas20 wrote: »

I actually agree with your second point more than your first. Over the past 30 - 40 years the role men play in society/the household has diminished greatly. They are no longer the main breadwinners. The patriarchal society has been shattered. Many guys don't have the necessary skills to cope when they reach their late teens/early twenties leading to sense of hopelessness and depression.

I agree with this also and I think up for anything has unfairly come in for a lot of flak in this thread. There is merit in saying that women feel they are more 'needed' by various people in their lives and that this can prevent feelings of worthlessness which can lead to suicidal thoughts. Not every facet of how humans interact can be backed up by statistics. However Thomas20's post did remind me of an article about the study of mobile phone usage logs and how patterns emerged depending on the gender of the user:

The data revealed that an individual's best friend, particularly in one's 20s and 30s, happens to be someone of the opposite sex and a similar age. In addition, striking differences exist in how men and women communicate with their presumed romantic partner. For one, the man in a woman's life was her very best friend for roughly 15 years, compared with seven years in the case for men. The peak age for partner parlance also differed: 27 years old for women and 32 for men.

After age 50, however, things change. The preference for a romantic partner peters out in both men and women, and toward the oldest age range in the data set, both sexes seek companionship first and foremost. For a woman, friendship with her man was replaced by a strong relationship with another woman, usually about a generation younger. Dunbar and his colleagues interpret this pattern as a mother–daughter relationship.

Putting together the strong preference in women for first a man and then a daughterlike figure, the researchers conclude that biology shapes female behavior, which in turn affects men. Dunbar suggests that women initiate and prioritize the relationship with a romantic partner earlier in life than men, an action that gradually leads men to reciprocate. This relationship remains top priority throughout the average woman's childbearing years. After that, she turns her attention to supporting the next generation of women as they approach childbearing.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/22/cell-phone-study-female-relationships_n_1443574.html?ref=science

An author of the study says that "the default for humans, if all else is equal, is actually a matrilineal society". Surely this is relevant to men and loneliness in middle-age?

Stheno · 11-10-2012 11:51pm

Sleepy wrote: »

When you consider that a lot of these cases involve car crashes where there's no passengers or other vehicles involved, it would probably make the figure even more compelling when put beside road death stats.

I'd like to see this amended, I've no doubt that suicide by single car crash is far more common than is reported.

up for anything wrote: »

Have you any statistics to base your comment about women applying this gold standard to the men in their lives?

I've been in the situation where my husband was out of work - his regular job was in construction and where he took on anything he could to make our ends meet. It didn't matter how much I supported him and boosted his morale. His misery came from within because he measured himself by his bread winning capabilities regardless of anything I could say to the contrary. He lost all interest in anything except his own un-admitted depression. I even rang his doctor asking him would he send out a letter saying that it was time for his annual check up so that he could speak to him and assess his mental state. Luckily he agreed to do this but when he went in he refused to admit to being depressed and so nothing could be done about it. Our marriage came to an abrupt end but the lead up to it was a few years of him perceiving his own inadequacy and taking it out on me and those closest to him. There is a time limit where another person can carry the burden of someone else's depression and survive themselves.

I know quite a few women who are being treated for depression which they have developed because living with someone who has no hope is not easy. It is not fair to blame women because the men in their lives commit suicide. Most of us do our best by our partners but in the end it is a purely a personal decision that they choose death over life.

On the flip side I left a marriage where my OH at the time wanted children after ten years, and I didn't and made that clear at the outset.

Too much is made in this society of gender appropriate roles, and in my opinion there is far too much pressure in this still very traditional society for men to be seen to support their family.

The British stiff upper lip analogy works very well in Ireland much to the detriment and loss of lives here.

jill_valentine · 12-10-2012 12:24am

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

I agree with this also and I think up for anything has unfairly come in for a lot of flak in this thread. There is merit in saying that women feel they are more 'needed' by various people in their lives and that this can prevent feelings of worthlessness which can lead to suicidal thoughts.

It's worth noting that, while the suicide rate among young men in Ireland is far higher than that of women, the rate of depression recorded is universally - in Ireland and the world over - far higher among women, and in particular women over 50. Since recording assumes that the patients reported it to somebody, it seems likely to me that the disparity in treatment - seeking it or dispensing it - is a major factor.

At any rate, I think it may be more complicated than it seems to usefully interpret these figures.

Reku · 12-10-2012 9:19am

jill_valentine wrote: »

It's worth noting that, while the suicide rate among young men in Ireland is far higher than that of women, the rate of depression recorded is universally - in Ireland and the world over - far higher among women, and in particular women over 50.

I always find it ridiculous that people rely upon those statistics for anything, as I'm pretty certain that you'll find a very significant portion of suicides will never have been medically reported as "depressed". Consider also the fact that women are known to far more readily consult a doctor over any ailment and you can see the serious flaw in any claim, that women suffer from depression more than men, which is based off of these figures.

Piliger · 12-10-2012 1:49pm

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

I agree with this also and I think up for anything has unfairly come in for a lot of flak in this thread. There is merit in saying that women feel they are more 'needed' by various people in their lives and that this can prevent feelings of worthlessness which can lead to suicidal thoughts.

Please note the difference between 'feeling' needed and 'being' needed. Women 'feel' needed because of the sexist and biased culture we are now living in that is devaluing men and their contribution to family and life.

But the truth is that men 'are' needed just as much, but we are continually marginalised by the system and by the campaigns of the feminist movement.

Piliger · 12-10-2012 1:54pm

Reku wrote: »

I always find it ridiculous that people rely upon those statistics for anything, as I'm pretty certain that you'll find a very significant portion of suicides will never have been medically reported as "depressed". Consider also the fact that women are known to far more readily consult a doctor over any ailment and you can see the serious flaw in any claim, that women suffer from depression more than men, which is based off of these figures.

Your point is well made and it seems to be self evident to anyone who brings a modicum of sense to the topic.

All of these statistics are hugely influenced by a couple of factors:

a) they are all generated by groups with a vested interest in high numbers.
b) they are distorted by the continual change in society that is bringing more openness and more willingness among people to actually say yes they are depressed, suicidal, have been abused or assaulted or raped.
c) Men are different to women. Women are different to men. Their behaviour is different and as you say above, they don't visit their GP anything like as much or report psychological issues anything like as much.

Defiler Of The Coffin · 12-10-2012 2:52pm

Piliger wrote: »

Please note the difference between 'feeling' needed and 'being' needed. Women 'feel' needed because of the sexist and biased culture we are now living in that is devaluing men and their contribution to family and life.

But the truth is that men 'are' needed just as much, but we are continually marginalised by the system and by the campaigns of the feminist movement.

In fairness I did say 'feel needed' as opposed to 'are needed'. But how do you reckon men are marginalised by society? Through the family courts? All this talk of being marginalised by feminist campaigns and the system sound a bit vague to me

Pawwed Rig · 12-10-2012 4:45pm

If you read the "men's rights" thread or the thread 'In what ways are men discriminated against? ' it will give many examples of where men are marginalised. In particular as you have mentioned with respect to families.

Piliger · 14-10-2012 5:21pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

If you read the "men's rights" thread or the thread 'In what ways are men discriminated against? ' it will give many examples of where men are marginalised. In particular as you have mentioned with respect to families.

Exactly.

sha the man · 05-11-2012 6:56pm

are people actually surprised at this and if so why. the stats whilst they are sad can hardly be surprising. i have these feeling every day and i am only 30. i personally no longer have a place in society i am taken out of the proverbial sellafane at Christmas birthdays and so on and the like and expected to go though the motions which i do. the rest of the time i am quietly managed. we as men no longer have a reason to live. we are no longer in charge of anything of any relevance. we are no longer masters either inside or outside. what is the point of our existence. i have no college education and i am not able to study. the semi skilled jobs that i would have done are gone to china or eastern Europe of wherever. yes i can "survive" on the dole but it is not living. it is emasculating not to be bring in the "bread". tbh i would rather be dead then continue on this pointless existence. to the Samaritans no offense but no amount of BS talking or tea and sympathy is going to change the above situation. woman for better or worse no longer need us. we have become as useful as a video cassette player. where i am we have no person a week throwing themselves into the river. personally i cannot see myself getting to 40 like this. it is not living it is a stagnant pointless existence a sort of limbo just waiting to die

Piliger · 05-11-2012 9:00pm

SNIP- petition spam removed

This is a naive and disingenuous and dishonest advertisement.

This advert claims that such a Suicide Prevention Authority can reduce suicides by the same amount as the Road Safety Authority ? what dishonest nonsense. Suicide is a deeply complex act and it is caused by equally complex issues in people's lives. The suggestion that such an Authority can wipe away such issues is utterly dishonest and in my view self serving.

This advert also claims that all suicides are preventable. This is another utterly dishonest claim.

Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore correctly said “Suicide is a problem that is not solvable simply by putting in place a State office or body to deal with the issue.” Mr Gilmore said that, instead, what must be done was to address the causes of suicide through the health service and more widely in society.

NOWHERE does this 3TS campaigning organisation set out what this Suicide Prevention Authority would do. NOWHERE does it set out what steps this proposed Suicide Prevention Authority would take to achieve these amazing claims. NOWHERE does it set out what policies, what solutions, what strategies this Suicide Prevention Authority would put in affect that would make these amazing claims come true.

This is just another self serving campaign by a special interest organisation. They want to achieve something worthwhile, but all they can do is campaign for an 'authority' with no plans, so strategy, no convincing argument as to why this 'authority' would achieve anything whatsoever except cost the tax payers a fortune.

Suicide is a choice made by desperate people, in desperate situations. Nothing can be done about people choosing suicide unless either the situations in which they find themselves can be changed, or people can be given the emotional tools with which to endure deeply challenging times in their lives without sinking into despair. And such tools will only help a minority in my view. A few TV campaigns and a helpline that cannot give actual advice will change nothing.

Action to promote men's rights, and to remove the prejudice and bias in our culture against men in areas such as family rights would do far more to lower the rate of suicide than any such Authority.

Pawwed Rig · 05-11-2012 9:10pm

I think that is probably a harsh assessment Piliger. I agree with you to an extent but if an org or authority can raise some level of awareness then it would be worthwhile.
Having said that I have not heard of this group before or to the founders although he seems to have the right kinds of qualifications.

Samaritans: Why 3,000 middle-aged men die by suicide each year (in the UK & Ireland)

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