Samaritans: Why 3,000 middle-aged men die by suicide each year (in the UK & Ireland)

Piliger · 05-11-2012 10:57pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I think that is probably a harsh assessment Piliger. I agree with you to an extent but if an org or authority can raise some level of awareness then it would be worthwhile.
Having said that I have not heard of this group before or to the founders although he seems to have the right kinds of qualifications.

I may appear harsh, but I think what you say is wrong ... they don't want to just raise the profile of a 'good cause'. They want to launch a new Suicide Authority with no plan, no strategy, no formula and a LOT of tax payers money. They also make false claims in their advert.

'Raising awareness' justifies this ? I don't think so.

No offence, but it's not good enough to excuse this kind of thing behind a 'good cause'.

Pawwed Rig · 05-11-2012 11:33pm

Ok as I said I have not heard of the group but if you know for a fact that they are being disingenuous and in it for profit then I can accept your reluctance to take what they say at face value. Maybe the poster could respond.

Bit confused was the post cut?

Piliger · 06-11-2012 12:23am

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Ok as I said I have not heard of the group but if you know for a fact that they are being disingenuous and in it for profit . . .

Excuse me ? where did I say anything of the kind ? I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me but please make an effort NOT to assign statements to me that I NEVER made.

Pawwed Rig · 06-11-2012 10:59am

So what are you saying? Why shouldn't we take this group seriously? No need to get defensive here

Kimia · 08-11-2012 3:26am

I would have thought that any group raising awareness of suicide would be a good thing. Suicide continues to be a massive taboo in Irish society. Consider the family of a person who dies by suicide - they face a very different reality than a family of a person who dies of cancer. When someone dies of 'natural causes' the family would receive sympathy, empathy etc, but when someone dies of suicide, it appears that the usual reaction is 'why', and as a parent/family member/spouse the reaction can also be 'what could i have done to prevent this', or even by others, 'what could they have done to prevent this?'.

You also have the complex issue of grief after suicide. The perpetrator and the victim are one in the same so it's incredibly difficult to find any kind of peace or acceptance, ever. It's almost impossible to comprehend how difficult it must be.

Put all these issues together and you have a very real issue facing society which is wrapped up in guilt and shame, which anyone would want to shy away from. So raising awareness of suicide as a phenomenon, and making the effort to understand why it happens and what suicidal people are feeling, is hugely important.

I can't think of anything more important tbh. People don't kill themselves because they want to die, they kill themselves because they cannot continue living their lives that way (whatever way that is). If we remove the taboo around talking about it / dealing with the grief of families without judgement, then the aim is that suicidal people will feel less isolated and hopeless. That is the two main reasons identified as suicidal thoughts so remove them, or alleviate them in even a small way (by understanding and increased awareness) will result in a decrease in suicide attempts. That is the hope anyway.

Pawwed Rig · 08-11-2012 10:26am

Kimia wrote: »

Consider the family of a person who dies by suicide - they face a very different reality than a family of a person who dies of cancer. When someone dies of 'natural causes' the family would receive sympathy, empathy etc, but when someone dies of suicide, it appears that the usual reaction is 'why', and as a parent/family member/spouse the reaction can also be 'what could i have done to prevent this', or even by others, 'what could they have done to prevent this?'.

Or indeed what did they do that caused this.

The real difference between suicide and the road death issue is how to reach the potential victims. The road death issue was improved by a joined up strategy of education, shock tactics and enforcement. Suicide is different in this regard as we can really only focus on education. It is very difficult to determine where someone will ultimately commit suicide so therefore very difficult to intervene. I agree with Piliger to the extent that the causes of suicide need to be addressed to ultimately solve the problem. These causes are many and complex and cannot simply be put down to men's rights (but I agree that this is one of the causes). These kind of groups can raise awareness more of mental health issues which will (hopefully) ultimately reduce the headline figures. So yes I think these groups can help but that does not necessarily mean each individual group is deserving of funding.

Piliger · 08-11-2012 12:52pm

Kimia wrote: »

I would have thought that any group raising awareness of suicide would be a good thing.

I agree.

Suicide continues to be a massive taboo in Irish society.

It's a taboo subject in all societies.

Consider the family of a person who dies by suicide - they face a very different reality than a family of a person who dies of cancer. When someone dies of 'natural causes' the family would receive sympathy, empathy etc, but when someone dies of suicide, it appears that the usual reaction is 'why', and as a parent/family member/spouse the reaction can also be 'what could i have done to prevent this', or even by others, 'what could they have done to prevent this?'.

So you say that the people we should have most sympathy with are the ones left behind ?

You also have the complex issue of grief after suicide. The perpetrator and the victim are one in the same so it's incredibly difficult to find any kind of peace or acceptance, ever. It's almost impossible to comprehend how difficult it must be.

Lots of things are difficult in life. I personally have more sympathy with the person considering suicide and their predicament.

Put all these issues together and you have a very real issue facing society which is wrapped up in guilt and shame, which anyone would want to shy away from. So raising awareness of suicide as a phenomenon, and making the effort to understand why it happens and what suicidal people are feeling, is hugely important.

I agree.

I can't think of anything more important tbh. People don't kill themselves because they want to die, they kill themselves because they cannot continue living their lives that way (whatever way that is). If we remove the taboo around talking about it / dealing with the grief of families without judgement, then the aim is that suicidal people will feel less isolated and hopeless. That is the two main reasons identified as suicidal thoughts so remove them, or alleviate them in even a small way (by understanding and increased awareness) will result in a decrease in suicide attempts. That is the hope anyway.

It is the hope but I don't personally buy into this simplistic analysis. People sometimes commit suicide for real and unavoidable reasons. They can't always be washed away by talking about them.

Kimia · 10-11-2012 12:14am

Piliger wrote: »

I agree.
It's a taboo subject in all societies.
So you say that the people we should have most sympathy with are the ones left behind ?

That's quite a leap. It's certainly not clear to me where I said this although perhaps that's one way of looking at it. Personally, I don't believe this, no.

Piliger wrote: »

Lots of things are difficult in life. I personally have more sympathy with the person considering suicide and their predicament.

That's your prerogative. Personally I don't understand the need to choose one over the other - can't one be sympathetic to everyone affected by suicide?

Piliger wrote: »

It is the hope but I don't personally buy into this simplistic analysis. People sometimes commit suicide for real and unavoidable reasons. They can't always be washed away by talking about them.

It's regrettable that you portray yourself in such a defensive and antagonistic manner. I think isolation and hopelessness are very real reasons, borne from personal and subjective experiences that we have no knowledge of.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they should be washed away or discounted. I think the opposite in fact.

iptba · 10-11-2012 2:29pm

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/a-doctors-fears-3290034.html

A doctor's fears
Saturday November 10 2012
13 Comments

• A word of warning to the Government on the upcoming Budget. As a GP, I'm shocked at the amount of depression, despair and suicidal ideation I have had to deal with in the past few months, mainly in middle-aged men who are under extreme financial pressure.

We are close to a tipping point, and any severe demands in the Budget will see a definite rise in suicide. Being the "good boys of Europe" and doing what we are told in the eyes of the troika and the Germans is not necessarily good for the Irish people. We need to row back for a year or so and offer these tortured people some hope.

Name and address with editor

Irish Independent

This reminds me of the quote:

“A woman worries about the future until she gets a husband, while a man never worries about the future until he gets a wife.”

Kimia · 10-11-2012 3:31pm

iptba wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/a-doctors-fears-3290034.html

This reminds me of the quote:

How does that remind of you of that quote?

iptba · 10-11-2012 3:58pm

Kimia wrote: »

How does that remind of you of that quote?

For whatever reason, it seems there is more pressure on men to financially provide for a family, if necessary working longer hours or working in more dangerous environments to do this.

Piliger · 11-11-2012 6:07pm

Kimia wrote: »

That's quite a leap. It's certainly not clear to me where I said this although perhaps that's one way of looking at it. Personally, I don't believe this, no.

Read your own post.

That's your prerogative. Personally I don't understand the need to choose one over the other - can't one be sympathetic to everyone affected by suicide?

Yes one can. You chose not to. Hence my comment.

It's regrettable that you portray yourself in such a defensive and antagonistic manner.

So disagreeing with your view is antagonistic and defensive ... mmmm

I think isolation and hopelessness are very real reasons, borne from personal and subjective experiences that we have no knowledge of.

Speak for yourself. And yes they can be. But they don't represent 100% of suicides.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they should be washed away or discounted. I think the opposite in fact.

Not if you watch the campaign advert being discussed above.

LeeHoffmann · 13-11-2012 8:54pm

Read your own post.

It´s a ridiculous leap

That's your prerogative. Personally I don't understand the need to choose one over the other - can't one be sympathetic to everyone affected by suicide?

Indeed.

You chose not to.

I really don´t see that in her post

martinnew · 17-11-2012 11:12am

Guys.

Where do I start. I don't want to get into specifics here, mainly to protect the privacy of the families involved or rather the families that are grieving.

About 3 weeks ago a well known public figure in our town took his live. Much loved and respected. He was 39. Lived close.

A week to his death another guy around the same age does the same thing and leaves behind a young family.

Both Men had Jobs and were not under financial pressures.

Am still a little bit in Shock. But not suicidal.. just usual sadness. I have some good mates and we talk things out.

Anyway.. I decided to get some objective help to make sure I was coping and if I needed to do anything better. I called AWARE, Their lines were busy but there was a message to call the SAMARITANS instead, Which I did and they were helpful. pretty much gave me the advise I already knew, but not harm getting your problems checked and getting objective advise.

What I have found out..

1. There is no dedicated Mens Charity for Mental or Suicide Issues.
2. 87% of Suicides in Ireland are men.
3. 400+ Men take their lives in the republic every year
4. There is no unified suicide support helpline.. How many of you would know the number of any of them? Why don't we have one number that could direct users to the various charities that support this? Everyone would know the number for directory enquiries 11890... Why don't we have a number like this for Crisis Support?

I suppose the worst thing about the whole experience was that people won't talk about it. Its happened, they are buried. In fact the 2nd suicide was nearly rushed to get him buried. Too painful to give more facts.

I am not from the area.... But one guy I heard said.. This is the start of it. That before the winter was out there would "normally" be 2 or 3 more.

And if this is my town... What's it like all over Ireland. We know when a person is killed on the Road,, but there are nearly double deaths to suicide.

Is it not time to build awareness of the issue and to teach boys from an early age to talk about their problems and to have a service that everyone knows about that is available to help.

Or do we go with the existing attitude that ... sure its bound to happen.

Lastly many of the Charities that offer help have Women on the end of the line.. And a BIG thank you to them for their extremely valuable work. Extremely professional and dedicated. But should we not also look to get men involved to help other men in this area.

I know suicide is an issue that effects Men and Women.. But I think Men are more drastic with this nuclear option, While women may attempt it, more of them survive it than men.

Anyway my thoughts on it. I posted in Gentlemen's Club,, to get a male view on this. I hope no women get offended with anything on this post, that was not my intention.

LeeHoffmann · 17-11-2012 5:17pm

excellent post martin new.

Priori · 17-11-2012 5:34pm

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

excellent post martin new.

+1

martinnew wrote:

What I have found out..

1. There is no dedicated Mens Charity for Mental or Suicide Issues.
2. 87% of Suicides in Ireland are men.
3. 400+ Men take their lives in the republic every year
4. There is no unified suicide support helpline.

These points definitely bring the issue into stark contrast. Can you tell me where I might read more about the second point above? I've just done a quick search and worked it out at 80% based on figures from this article in the Irish Times from Oct 2, 2012.

I certainly don't mean to nitpick, I just want to read more on this.

martinnew wrote:

We know when a person is killed on the Road,, but there are nearly double deaths to suicide.

I know... that really puts it into perspective.

martinnew · 17-11-2012 7:42pm

Priori wrote: »

+1

These points definitely bring the issue into stark contrast. Can you tell me where I might read more about the second point above? I've just done a quick search and worked it out at 80% based on figures from this article in the Irish Times from Oct 2, 2012.

I certainly don't mean to nitpick, I just want to read more on this.

I know... that really puts it into perspective.

Hi, I think I googled the figures for 2011 the the Republic. But I stand corrected on the %. The 2010 figures were 80:20 Men/Women.

Here locally the suicides that I have seen over the last number of years were men, one guy I spoke to said he knew personally 40 men who took their life over the past 20 years. As far as I know 2 women took their lives here. But that's just anecdotal, I don't have exact figures.

And the town here is rural Connaght population about 10K. So small ish.

Kimia · 18-11-2012 12:28am

Completely agree Martin. It's so sad. I would echo your point about noone talking about it, I was under the impression that the Samaritans were mostly into crisis support but I could be wrong.

Movember have now (from this year) included men's mental health issues to their fundraising efforts. Men's mental health charities will receive half of the funds raised and prostate cancer will receive the other half. I hope Irish men (and women) embrace Movember and support it just as much as the Pink campaign for women.

LeeHoffmann · 18-11-2012 2:57pm

I know suicide is an issue that effects Men and Women.. But I think Men are more drastic with this nuclear option, While women may attempt it, more of them survive it than men.

I wonder how true this is. I´ve heard it a few times myself. From my own experience, I´ve personally known 2 women who attempted suicide and 2 men who planned their suicide but never went through with it. Both the men planned a fairly violent end - i.e. one that would have been nearly certain to kill them. The two women both attempted suicide multiple times - one of them only used relatively non-violent methods such as overdoses. The other began with overdoses but finally used a more violent method and succeeded. I´ve heard of more women and girls attempting (ie. unsuccessfully) suicide - usually overdoses, and I´ve heard of more men committing suicide - usually hanging. This is all just my experience. I´d be interested to know whether this would be typical. In other words, how much truth is there in the claim that men are more likely to choose violent/certain methods (such as shootings, accidents/crashes, hanging, etc) from the first attempt, whereas women are more likely to choose non-violent methods (such as overdoses) at first before graduating to more violent methods?

martinnew · 18-11-2012 3:08pm

The reality is One in every 38 male deaths and one in every 143 female deaths in Ireland is by suicide.

I would like to know how many Women V Men attempted Suicide so we could get the complete picture.

Men are more nuclear about this decision, But experts say we should not discuss the how people take their lives on internet forums.

I think we should discuss suicide, but keep well away for the details of how men do it. Its what a women for the Samaritans told me.

Please do not discuss ANY methods here. Just keep it as general as possible. Its bad enough the fact people take their lives.

LeeHoffmann · 18-11-2012 3:11pm

But experts say we should not discuss the how people take their lives on internet forums.

Why? Because we´ll "give them ideas"?

I don´t want to write a list of suicide methods - just discuss whether men choose more violent methods.

Edit: maybe that woman was referring more to the kind of suicide forums where people discuss the ´best way´ and arrange to meet up in so-called suicide pacts? I don´t see how it helps anyone to just ignore a very pertinent aspect of the issue

Kimia · 18-11-2012 3:16pm

martinnew wrote: »

But experts say we should not discuss the how people take their lives on internet forums.

I think we should discuss suicide, but keep well away for the details of how men do it. Its what a women for the Samaritans told me.

Please do not discuss ANY methods here. Just keep it as general as possible. Its bad enough the fact people take their lives.

I seriously question this. I think it was very bad advice for someone from the Samaritans to give. Not talking about it openly and freely keeps it cloaked in secrecy and shame and to hell with that.

Talking about suicide isn't going to make someone attempt suicide. Asking someone straight out 'Are you thinking about killing yourself?' and 'Have you ever tried to kill yourself before?' will not make suicidal people actually take the final step. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

Talking about it openly normalizes it. I can see why people wouldn't want to do this for fear of appearing to 'approve' of suicide but that's not what we're doing here. We're normalizing it so that the suicidal people who may be reading this forum don't feel like they're the only people in the world who feel that they are in a hole so deep they can't get out. They are not alone and it is okay to talk about it.

martinnew · 18-11-2012 3:18pm

Kimia wrote: »

I seriously question this. I think it was very bad advice for someone from the Samaritans to give. Not talking about it openly and freely keeps it cloaked in secrecy and shame and to hell with that.

Talking about suicide isn't going to make someone attempt suicide. Asking someone straight out 'Are you thinking about killing yourself?' and 'Have you ever tried to kill yourself before?' will not make suicidal people actually take the final step. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

Talking about it openly normalizes it. I can see why people wouldn't want to do this for fear of appearing to 'approve' of suicide but that's not what we're doing here. We're normalizing it so that the suicidal people who may be reading this forum don't feel like they're the only people in the world who feel that they are in a hole so deep they can't get out. They are not alone and it is okay to talk about it.

Talk about Suicide Yes.. But not HOW people did it.

http://www.nosp.ie/practical_guide.pdf

Kimia · 18-11-2012 3:20pm

martinnew wrote: »

Talk about Suicide Yes.. But not HOW people did it.

Doesn't matter. They can google methods. Talking about it will not increase suicidal attempts just the same as not talking about it will decrease attempts. We've seen how well not talking about suicide is working out.

The point is not talking about methods/means still cloaks it in secrecy, like it's this big huge shameful terrible thing that we should never talk about.

LeeHoffmann · 18-11-2012 3:22pm

The way I see it, if we don´t understand a problem we have little to no chance of dealing with it effectively. Only discussing things in an extremely general sense could limit our understanding and prevent us from gaining insights that could revolutionise the way we deal with suicide. Revolutionise is a strong word but, considering our (society´s) current understanding of and approach to suicide, I can only assume that we have a huge amount to learn.

Talk about Suicide Yes.. But not HOW people did it.

again, why?

The link is taking a long time to open

Kimia · 18-11-2012 3:25pm

martinnew wrote: »

Talk about Suicide Yes.. But not HOW people did it.

http://www.nosp.ie/practical_guide.pdf

From the link you've shared:

However, contrary to popular belief, talking about ‘suicide’ does not increase the risk or ‘plant the idea in someone’s head’. In fact it reduces the risk of suicide by allowing the person to find relief in being able to talk about their problems. Having the chance to express acute worries and concerns with someone who cares often greatly reduces the pain that the person is experiencing. In most situations it leads to a greater sense of hope, encouraging the person to explore ways to move forward and access support.

Silverfish · 18-11-2012 3:27pm

Presumably because it's better to draw focus away from the 'how' and instead focus on the 'why'.

The 'how' could cause someone who is depressed to relate to a specific act and feel it would be easier, quicker, painless, or whatever reasoning they feel could apply. The surrounding conversation will fade could fade out in relation to the 'how'.

So by drawing focus away from it, they can expand and discuss the 'why'. I don't see a connection between how someone chooses to do it and understanding the problem, the problem is what drove them to do it, and that's the 'why'. They need to talk about that.

martinnew · 18-11-2012 3:27pm

Kimia wrote: »

Doesn't matter. They can google methods. Talking about it will not increase suicidal attempts just the same as not talking about it will decrease attempts. We've seen how well not talking about suicide is working out.

The point is not talking about methods/means still cloaks it in secrecy, like it's this big huge shameful terrible thing that we should never talk about.

On a learning curve here, You may well be correct.

martinnew · 18-11-2012 3:33pm

Silverfish wrote: »

Presumably because it's better to draw focus away from the 'how' and instead focus on the 'why'.

The 'how' could cause someone who is depressed to relate to a specific act and feel it would be easier, quicker, painless, or whatever reasoning they feel could apply. The surrounding conversation will fade could fade out in relation to the 'how'.

So by drawing focus away from it, they can expand and discuss the 'why'. I don't see a connection between how someone chooses to do it and understanding the problem, the problem is what drove them to do it, and that's the 'why'. They need to talk about that.

Exactly that was what I understood aswell. Talk about suicide yes,, but not the details of how a person did it. Raise awareness of the why's.

Its sad but Men don't talk about their problems.. And some just let them build until it goes too far.

For me the HOW a man takes his life is irrelevant. (as long as he does not take other people with him) The fact is, he did it and he is gone..

I would love to hear from any men on this forum if they seriously thought about it,but were able to get help and got over it. I think knowing some success stories could help other men look for help.

Kimia · 18-11-2012 3:37pm

martinnew wrote: »

On a learning curve here, You may well be correct.

I saw the part of the guide where it tells the media not to discuss the intricate details of how someone has killed themselves so I see what you mean about that part.

What I was highlighting was that I believe strongly that nothing should be off limits when discussing suicide. Including the hows. Someone who's very interested in the hows can be a sign that they are having suicidal thoughts and perhaps that's how someone in their circle/family etc can see this and try to help.

I can't really see how discussing ways people die by suicide will prompt someone (who was previously not suicidal) to say 'Oh that looks like that's for me'. I don't think someone who's thinking rationally will decide on a whim based on forum discussions that may possibly discuss how someone died by suicide to just out of the blue kill themselves.

If someone is suicidal, they're suicidal. They're going to google how, they are going to think about the ways they can die. Them happening to notice others talking about it online etc, isn't going to stop that.

What will, is education, support systems and a non-judgemental society where everything is open for discussion.