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Is it acceptable for a teacher?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Another poster has already stated that there is no training given to teachers to deal with misbehaving students. In a class there will always be a range of children from different backgrounds. If a teacher is unable to deal with them and resorts to this nonsense of making them face a wall for an hour then the teacher needs to look into paying for their own training to address the issues they are having in the class. Maybe get onto the ASTI to organise courses during the summer/Christmas holidays in affective disciplinary techniques.

    This is a completely flawed argument because it infers that all children behave correctly for a properly trained teacher. An obviously inaccurate suggestion.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,377 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Not necessarily but a properly trained teacher will know how to deal with disruptive children. TBH I am shocked that they receive zero training in this area. I thought it would be fundamental to the teaching profession. I can only draw from my experience at school where a teacher who could get the respect of the class was always more effective than the ones who lose control. I was hoping that a qualified teacher could enlighten us on the correct procedure in this (or a given) situation but it seems that they have no more idea than I have


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    It's not just about training or techniques, though. I'm not convinced that any amount of techniques learned will magically transform a teacher into one who can enforce discipline in a class. It's hugely personality based, and very hard to learn.

    The other issue is that teachers who can win the respect of the class and have them not be disruptive, is that this doesn't automatically mean they will actually be good at the teaching part.

    I recall from when I was in school there were often situations where certain teachers would get nowhere with classes of disruptive pupils, but when teaching smaller classes of less disruptive students, they were fantastic. There were others who could maintain discipline no matter what class they taught, but were hopeless at teaching. There were some brilliant teachers who had both skills, but they were rare.

    And ultimately, I don't think it's realistic to expect every teacher to be this brilliant. We just don't have a pool of such teachers to choose from. Personally, being pragmatic about this, I'm not that bothered if "dated" techniques are used, and disruptive students be isolated and starved of attention, letting the rest of the class learn more effectively.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭kupus


    Why didnt the teacher send the student home? Might wake the kid up and the parents who think that their kids are angels.......


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,377 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    yawha wrote: »
    It's not just about training or techniques, though. I'm not convinced that any amount of techniques learned will magically transform a teacher into one who can enforce discipline in a class. It's hugely personality based, and very hard to learn.

    But you would imagine they would get SOME techniques rather than ignoring the issue which is what the teacher poster said happens.
    I agree it can be personality based and on a more general point I think many people employed as teachers are wholely unsuitable fo the job. I know as part of the training they need to be observed teaching a class. I knew a girl who had strips torn off her during these sessions yet she still graduated!!! After proving she couldn't teach they allowed her graduate.

    Is there any teachers willing to back up the profession? The silence is deafening
    kupus wrote: »
    Why didnt the teacher send the student home? Might wake the kid up and the parents who think that their kids are angels.......

    I would have thought it is because of the legal obligation of the school to teach the child. Presuming she was under the legal age


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭vamos!


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Not necessarily but a properly trained teacher will know how to deal with disruptive children. TBH I am shocked that they receive zero training in this area. I thought it would be fundamental to the teaching profession. I can only draw from my experience at school where a teacher who could get the respect of the class was always more effective than the ones who lose control. I was hoping that a qualified teacher could enlighten us on the correct procedure in this (or a given) situation but it seems that they have no more idea than I have

    I did not make my point about training very well. We are trained to a certain degree but an awful lot of discipline and punishment depends on the individual teacher and the school. The theory does not always lend itself to real-life situations. There are fabulous ideas out there which just don't seem to work in real life. Each teacher has to assess themselves, their class and the students before giving out a punishment. We do not do a course saying talking out of turn= 50 lines, laughing=facing a wall etc. Nor should we be told this as all schools, situations and children are different.,

    Saying that teacher X has excellent discipline and knows how to control a class while Teacher Y is hopeless is also not always fair. Factors such as lunchtime and the 'challenging' students' interest and ability in the subject also play an important part. Little Johnny hates French with a passion. He will never get to France and feels silly putting on an accent. He acts up in French as it means nothing to him. His teacher has to react. For some unexplainable reason he likes Geography and has done since primary. He behaves really well in Geog and his easily distracted 'crew' also behave. Often, this has nothing to do with the teacher.

    Also, on an aside, I have no idea why the ASTI would be involved in offereing courses on behaviour management.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭vamos!


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    But you would imagine they would get SOME techniques rather than ignoring the issue which is what the teacher poster said happens.
    I agree it can be personality based and on a more general point I think many people employed as teachers are wholely unsuitable fo the job. I know as part of the training they need to be observed teaching a class. I knew a girl who had strips torn off her during these sessions yet she still graduated!!! After proving she couldn't teach they allowed her graduate.

    Is there any teachers willing to back up the profession? The silence is deafening



    I would have thought it is because of the legal obligation of the school to teach the child. Presuming she was under the legal age

    Students are generally well up on their rights. It is great that they have rights but they, and some parents fail to acknowledge the responsibilities which come with rights!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭kupus


    Well since when did school become a babysitting service.....one phonecall to the parent and to collect child within half hour.
    Trouble is the kids have more rights than the teachers just like the criminals have more rights than the guards...

    And for parents to be harking on about rights for this and that its no wonder the country is going to hell.
    When I was in school there was a kid who was acting the maggot and he deservedly got a clip round the ear, next day parent comes in creating stink that his kid is an angel blah blah blah......sick of this type of crap.
    (NIMBY)


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,377 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    vamos! wrote: »
    Saying that teacher X has excellent discipline and knows how to control a class while Teacher Y is hopeless is also not always fair. Factors such as lunchtime and the 'challenging' students' interest and ability in the subject also play an important part. Little Johnny hates French with a passion. He will never get to France and feels silly putting on an accent. He acts up in French as it means nothing to him. His teacher has to react. For some unexplainable reason he likes Geography and has done since primary. He behaves really well in Geog and his easily distracted 'crew' also behave. Often, this has nothing to do with the teacher.

    Also, on an aside, I have no idea why the ASTI would be involved in offereing courses on behaviour management.
    So you are saying the training is not fit for purpose. If he hates French encourage him to do Art or wahtever he is interested in. As an adult you would be in a good position to provide career guidance (if the school did not have a specific post).

    I dunno ASTI or whoever represents teachers. Do you have a standards organisation or a representative body? If you feel the training is not good enough then get onto them to organise extra training.
    vamos! wrote: »
    Students are generally well up on their rights. It is great that they have rights but they, and some parents fail to acknowledge the responsibilities which come with rights!!
    It is good that they are up on their rights when you see the deplorable manner we allowed teachers to treat students in the class. I am assuming part of your training makes you aware of yours and their rights too?
    Of course parents SHOULD produce nice cooperative children but unfortunately that is not always possible which is why we also need well trained teachers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    kupus wrote: »
    Why didnt the teacher send the student home? Might wake the kid up and the parents who think that their kids are angels.......

    You can't be serious ? Firstly a lot of kid's parents work and there is no one at home. Secondly they would be sending dozens of students home every day because this kind of behaviour is happening that often in every school. Thirdly what is wrong with people that are objecting to every possible punishment and making all punishments humiliating ? It's ridiculous.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    kupus wrote: »
    Well since when did school become a babysitting service.....one phonecall to the parent and to collect child within half hour.
    (NIMBY)

    Duh ... most kids have no one at home during working hours... their parents work...

    The rest I agree with wholeheartedly.:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    It is good that they are up on their rights when you see the deplorable manner we allowed teachers to treat students in the class. I am assuming part of your training makes you aware of yours and their rights too?
    Of course parents SHOULD produce nice cooperative children but unfortunately that is not always possible which is why we also need well trained teachers.
    How much of a teacher's time do you think should be spent sorting out a misbehaving student and how much do you think should be spent teaching students who actually listen and want to learn?

    And in what ways do teachers treat students "deplorably"?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,377 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    yawha wrote: »
    How much of a teacher's time do you think should be spent sorting out a misbehaving student and how much do you think should be spent teaching students who actually listen and want to learn?

    I would have thought the answer to that was obvious ie as little and as much as possible.
    yawha wrote: »
    And in what ways do teachers treat students "deplorably"?
    You misunderstood my post (again btw) I said allowed not allow.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭kupus


    Piliger wrote: »
    Duh ... most kids have no one at home during working hours... their parents work...

    The rest I agree with wholeheartedly.:)

    My point exactly, the parent would actually have to leave work, and not get paid for the day to accommodate the disruptive kid.......HIT THEM IN THEIR POCKETS.
    Then its the responsibility of the parent then to keep their kid on a leash and not the baby sitting service that school has become.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭DylanII


    The thing is that no one really knows what happened. If someone asks a question the OP doesn't really answer it.

    All that I can see is that her child claimed that a few people were laughing and she was laughing louder. If I was this teacher in this situation I don't think there would be a punishment unless it happened to often.

    But, by laughing louder do you mean that she naturally has a loud laugh or she was trying to get attention by laughing really loud (like a lot of students do to 'look cool'). If the later then she did deserve a punishment. If this was the case then she would most likely be a disruptive child anyway. The kind that makes faces and distracts people. I don't disagree with the punishment in this case.

    Sure, the child may have felt embarrassed, but she will get over it, or realise that this is what happens when I do something stupid and stops misbehaving.

    Embarrassment isn't all that bad a thing. Children get embarrassed all the time, if they are in class and the teacher asks a question, she doesn't know the answer and looks 'stupid' to her friends. She will be embarrassed, but does that mean that the teacher should stop asking questions?

    I think people need to get over all of this political correctness bull**** and get on with their lives.

    I know that if my child (if I had any) came home and said they didn't learn anything in Science today because the teacher spent the whole class trying to deal with a little brat then I would not be happy (Thats why I think streamlining is a good thing).

    Of course, I have just made a lot of assumptions but we don't actually have any information.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    kupus wrote: »
    My point exactly, the parent would actually have to leave work, and not get paid for the day to accommodate the disruptive kid.......HIT THEM IN THEIR POCKETS.
    Then its the responsibility of the parent then to keep their kid on a leash and not the baby sitting service that school has become.

    I am gobsmacked. Truly.:confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭GalwayGirl00


    marienbad wrote: »
    So if this dos'nt work what would you propose next ?
    If it is so humiliating and demeaning as you stated previously then surely the girl won't do it again? Why are you harping on about the next step? She will have learned her lesson, the parent will have(or should) have explained it shouldn't happen again , and the teacher will have been informed that the parent does not agree with this type of punishment and come to an agreement with the parent about what should be done IF anything happens again.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,377 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭vamos!


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »

    Relevant,yes. A good thing- probably not. The state is concerned about the 200 million being spent on learning support for students with behavioural issues. A curse will be useful and helpful but not all students can be in a class of 27 or so all day every day. The other students will suffer, as well as the child with additional needs and the teacher and no amount of training will allow a teacher effectively teach a large class of various needs and abilities as well as serious behavioural issues. This is another cut being dressed up as 'help' for ineffective teachers. Once the support is cut and the effects are obvious, it will be too late...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭Trotter


    And who's fault will it be?.. Teachers again.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,377 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Any training is beneficial though because as you said previously the teacher training courses are lacking in that area. Although I am not sure wht 3 days is going to do for anyone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭vamos!


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Any training is beneficial though because as you said previously the teacher training courses are lacking in that area. Although I am not sure wht 3 days is going to do for anyone.

    While it is true that teacher training courses are somewhat lacking in the area, discipline and strategies for dealing with general classroom management and challenging behaviour are things you learn on the job, in a real-life situation. Each class is different and schools vary wildly. One size just does not fit all. I have had to completely change my approach when moving schools. I would be interested to see what a trainer could suggest, but we are not psychologists. We are responsible for the education of and general well-being of all students in our care. Yes, we need to keep a well-controlled classroom, so that we can teach and students can learn but we can't have children with very challenging behaviour in the room full-time with no extra support.It doesn't help anyone and no 3 day course will address the reality!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,377 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Unfortunately not all are capable of learning on the job so getting a few pointers cannot possibly do any harm, even if it just tells them what kind of punishments are effective against those that just waste everyones time


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,644 ✭✭✭SerialComplaint


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »

    Any idea why the NCSE are pushing this? I thought they only dealt with students with special needs?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Because they are mainstreaming kids who have special needs into class rooms and the teachers don't know how to manage them. Kids with Aspergers now now longer get an SNA or even a shared SNA and so the teachers have to learn to manage them in a class.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,644 ✭✭✭SerialComplaint


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Because they are mainstreaming kids who have special needs into class rooms and the teachers don't know how to manage them. Kids with Aspergers now now longer get an SNA or even a shared SNA and so the teachers have to learn to manage them in a class.

    Is there a particular link between kids with disabilities and bad behaviour? I'd have thought that the two are very different issues, requiring very different management.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    I never said bad behavior but it's also used for distracting and disruptive behavior.
    Heading of nonconstructive interactions for the sake of the whole class.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Sharrow wrote: »
    I never said bad behavior but it's also used for distracting and disruptive behavior.
    Heading of nonconstructive interactions for the sake of the whole class.
    Of course. I had this with my son when he was in 4th class. A boy with learning disabilities who got frustrated 10 times a day and disrupted the class all through the year. I and other parents came to discuss it with the Head to no avail. His hands were tied. It was a disgrace.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 343 ✭✭Sorcha16


    tap wrote: »
    Ah come on! Teachers often leave class.

    Teachers do not often leave class. Do your duty as a parent and have a word with your daughter about behaving correctly in school, otherwise accept the consequences.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,644 ✭✭✭SerialComplaint


    Sharrow wrote: »
    I never said bad behavior but it's also used for distracting and disruptive behavior.
    Heading of nonconstructive interactions for the sake of the whole class.

    I understand that some students with disabilities have behaviour issues, just as many other students have behaviour issues. The broad impression that I get from this issue being driven by the NCSE is that all or most behaviour issues relate to students with disabilities - which isn't my understanding of the situation.


This discussion has been closed.
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