Is it acceptable for a teacher?

Orion · 18-09-2012 9:07pm

marienbad wrote: »

This is utterly unacceptable - there is no place for humiliation in school.

Correct. Humiliation is not punishment - it is humiliation. There are other ways to punish a child without humiliating them. If that was my child I would be straight on to the principal without question.

Orion · 18-09-2012 9:15pm

cloptrop wrote: »

Thats the type of responnse youd get from a smart arse teen .

That's quite enough of that. Comments like that are unacceptable in this forum.

cloptrop wrote: »

Op are you suggesting the teacher sits down with the bold children and asks them what punishment they will accept .
Maybe send them out to do driving lessons or make them eat ice cream .
How about they take the disruptive kids out to the beach and let the normal kids learn .
Its a priveledge having an education for children teachers arnt your paid lackeys waiting on your next list of demands.

Education is a right not a privilege. Facetiousness and sarcasm don't suit you ... or this thread. Next comment like this will earn more than a warning.

yawha · 18-09-2012 9:46pm

I'm not sure how it was humiliation, personally. Seems like an extremely mild punishment to me. I'm not out of school that long, and I remember similar punishments for misbehaving students. It makes a lot of sense - you isolate the student from the environment in which they were misbehaving. The facing the wall part is simply to prevent any potential distraction to the class they're going in to.

When such students were brought into other classes, I never recall anyone in the class they went into caring at all. I can't see where "humiliation" comes into this at all.

Neewbie_noob · 18-09-2012 9:50pm

danny8 wrote: »

Have to remember Kids are no angles any more

Well if they are not slouching on their chair, they should be sitting at 90°

sillysmiles · 18-09-2012 11:03pm

Orion wrote: »

Correct. Humiliation is not punishment - it is humiliation. There are other ways to punish a child without humiliating them. If that was my child I would be straight on to the principal without question.

what humilation? The people who think that separating a child from her peers and preventing further disruption is humilation are beyond me.

sillysmiles · 18-09-2012 11:07pm

Education is a right not a privilege.

And how many people seem to forget that rights come hand in hand with responsibilities?

marienbad · 18-09-2012 11:13pm

listermint wrote: »

Will you stop referring to the workplace as if a class full of students bears any comparison. because its a ridiculous comparison.

Heres my biggest issue these days young kids are growing up far too fast, they know everything, they get everything and appreciate the value of nothing. And people treating them like adults far before their time buys into it.
Discipline and respect has been absolutely crushed in the last decade or so and i think we will reap what we sow over the next decade because of it.

Why don'y you answer my points instead of telling me how to make them ?

And as for your view on kids today , completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

NegativeCreep · 18-09-2012 11:17pm

I never understood being punished for laughing. It's a natural response to something you find amusing. It's not like you can help it!

fenris · 19-09-2012 12:06am

marienbad wrote: »

Why don'y you answer my points instead of telling me how to make them ?

I think he answered your point and you didn't like the answer.

Age is very relevant.

Schoolkids are children not adults, there is a difference and you cannot expect children to behave as adults consistently. They are in school to learn certain subjects. Their emotional and social development is primarily the responsibility of their parents not their geography teacher. While it would be nice if the postman also washed my windows, it is not his job.

Removing a disruptive attention seeking child from the group stops her getting the attention that she is playing for and allows the other children to be educated while sending her less idiotic classmates a very clear message on acceptable behavior.

She then has to be put somewhere supervised - another class it doesn't really matter if the kids there are older or younger, she is simply there to be supervised.

Her babyish antics cannot be allowed to further disrupt a second class of children so face her into a wall and tell her to be quiet. Maybe looking at the blank wall willl let her calm down a bit and maybe even think about why she ended up there. It is not punishment or humiliation, just the consequences of her poor decision making and lack of emotional maturity, learn and move on.

Those steps to me are quite logical and driven by both necessity and practicality.

If the girl feels humiliated or embarassed, big deal, that just reflects her lack of emotional maturity and more to the point reflects poorly on her parents inability or unwillingless to educate her on basic manners and behavior. When exactly were they going to get around to that?

School is not a workplace for the children, it is however a workplace for the staff. The school has a responsibility to the staff in terms of the working conditions and employee wellbeing.

marienbad · 19-09-2012 12:19am

fenris wrote: »

I think he answered your point and you didn't like the answer.

Age is very relevant.

Schoolkids are children not adults, there is a difference and you cannot expect children to behave as adults consistently. They are in school to learn certain subjects. Their emotional and social development is primarily the responsibility of their parents not their geography teacher. While it would be nice if the postman also washed my windows, it is not his job.

Removing a disruptive attention seeking child from the group stops her getting the attention that she is playing for and allows the other children to be educated while sending her less idiotic classmates a very clear message on acceptable behavior.

She then has to be put somewhere supervised - another class it doesn't really matter if the kids there are older or younger, she is simply there to be supervised.

Her babyish antics cannot be allowed to further disrupt a second class of children so face her into a wall and tell her to be quiet. Maybe looking at the blank wall willl let her calm down a bit and maybe even think about why she ended up there. It is not punishment or humiliation, just the consequences of her poor decision making and lack of emotional maturity, learn and move on.

Those steps to me are quite logical and driven by both necessity and practicality.

If the girl feels humiliated or embarassed, big deal, that just reflects her lack of emotional maturity and more to the point reflects poorly on her parents inability or unwillingless to educate her on basic manners and behavior. When exactly were they going to get around to that?

School is not a workplace for the children, it is however a workplace for the staff. The school has a responsibility to the staff in terms of the working conditions and employee wellbeing.

You are no more answering than the other poster.And all this longwindedness is meaningless. You are actually saying it is ok to humiliate children and not adults.

If this particular punishment dos'nt work what would you suggest next ?

augustus gloop · 19-09-2012 12:29am

how dare that teacher humiliate the kid, chit like that was pulled when I was at school, and the most hateful memories I have from school are thing like this. Its 2012 for God sake, how dare they.
Say what they like teachers are well paid professionals who we trust with our children, mental scarring is not in their job description.
If it was my child, expect to find me standing beside his car at 4:15, lets see how he likes embarrassing teens then

augustus gloop · 19-09-2012 12:34am

fenris wrote: »

I think he answered your point and you didn't like the answer.

Age is very relevant.

Schoolkids are children not adults, there is a difference and you cannot expect children to behave as adults consistently. They are in school to learn certain subjects. Their emotional and social development is primarily the responsibility of their parents not their geography teacher. While it would be nice if the postman also washed my windows, it is not his job.

Removing a disruptive attention seeking child from the group stops her getting the attention that she is playing for and allows the other children to be educated while sending her less idiotic classmates a very clear message on acceptable behavior.

She then has to be put somewhere supervised - another class it doesn't really matter if the kids there are older or younger, she is simply there to be supervised.

Her babyish antics cannot be allowed to further disrupt a second class of children so face her into a wall and tell her to be quiet. Maybe looking at the blank wall willl let her calm down a bit and maybe even think about why she ended up there. It is not punishment or humiliation, just the consequences of her poor decision making and lack of emotional maturity, learn and move on.

Those steps to me are quite logical and driven by both necessity and practicality.

If the girl feels humiliated or embarassed, big deal, that just reflects her lack of emotional maturity and more to the point reflects poorly on her parents inability or unwillingless to educate her on basic manners and behavior. When exactly were they going to get around to that?

School is not a workplace for the children, it is however a workplace for the staff. The school has a responsibility to the staff in terms of the working conditions and employee wellbeing.

I feel sorry for your children if you stand by these speaks, although I wonder if in this position with your own daughter would you really incorporate the same methodology.

nacimroc · 19-09-2012 12:36am

I have changed my mind about public sector pay! Double their pay for putting up with some of these people!

fenris · 19-09-2012 12:39am

It was not punishment

It was not humiliation

It allowed the rest of the class to continue learning

It allowed the girl time to cool down and cop on

Children are not adults

Teaching manners is her parents job

Teaching is a job

Going to school is not a job, it is an opportunity to be educated

I think it worked quite well as a means to allow the rest of the class continue so no other action is needed.

If the behavior re-occurs the repeat and call the parents

Based on your responses in this thread I don't believe you would recognise anything as an answer if it disagreed with your viewpoint.

Muir · 19-09-2012 12:44am

First of all, make sure you are getting all the information. My niece was given rules to write out last week, claiming the whole class were made do it because of two people talking. My sister was all too quick to believe it. I didn't buy it for a second and the truth turned out to be it was the whole class talking.

If everything your daughter says is true, it's not right for her to be removed from class today over an incident that occurred yesterday. I would understand it happening if she was disrupting the class & sent out at that time but not a day later. It is actually an infringement on her right to education if she is removed from class and not being taught at that time. I know this having had contact with the department of education on a similar matter a few years ago.

Take what your daughter says with a pinch of salt though, and try to find out the full story. It's very unlikely you have been given the full and truthful version of events.

fenris · 19-09-2012 12:47am

augustus gloop wrote: »

I feel sorry for your children if you stand by these speaks, although I wonder if in this position with your own daughter would you really incorporate the same methodology.

If it was my daughter I would be very disappointed if she got into that situation in the first place. She knows how to behave in public and treat people with courtesy and respect.

I would certainly get the full story including the teachers viewpoint. I would have no problem if she was removed from a situation and treated as described. I would insist that she wrote a letter of apology to the teacher and leave it at that.

A bigger problem from my perspective would be if the teacher did not have enough control over the class to allow my child the opportunity to learn in a safe and effective manner.

augustus gloop · 19-09-2012 12:47am

it was a punishment and it was humiliating.
As you say she is not an adult, hence she more than likely has the peer driven insecurity issues most teen girls have, making this singling out in front of her peers even worse.
Again, as she is not an adult, do you think you would be reflecting on her actions while facing the wall in a senior class? More likely she is mortified, wondering how she will live it down.
Also, the whole punishment was 100% placed to humiliate, if the teacher removed her during the class, that would be something, the fact she waited until the next day does nothing to remedy disruption.

bdoo · 19-09-2012 12:50am

Sitting on a chair is no humiliation.

Laughing in class is no crime either - it happens.

I think op that from experience you should not start thumping any desks until you find out the full facts. You could be left with egg on your face.

how did the laughing start? How long did it last? How many times were they asked to stop?

Maybe there was a group of kids laughing at another kid for making a mistake? It happens.

Children and humans generally have a habit of tailoring stories to suit their own needs.

Attacking a teacher will do no good, a polite enquiry. Then if not satisfied and you feel an injustice has been done you could speak to the principal.

It seems you have your mind made up, consider the possibilities.

Muir · 19-09-2012 12:50am

fenris wrote: »

It was not punishment

It was not humiliation

It allowed the rest of the class to continue learning

It allowed the girl time to cool down and cop on

Children are not adults

Teaching manners is her parents job

Teaching is a job

Going to school is not a job, it is an opportunity to be educated

I think it worked quite well as a means to allow the rest of the class continue so no other action is needed.

If the behavior re-occurs the repeat and call the parents

Based on your responses in this thread I don't believe you would recognise anything as an answer if it disagreed with your viewpoint.

Apparently she was sent to another class a day after the incident occurred so bolded points don't really stand. If what the daughter said is true I don't see the sense in sending her out of class a day later as a punishment.

marienbad · 19-09-2012 12:53am

fenris wrote: »

It was not punishment

It was not humiliation

It allowed the rest of the class to continue learning

It allowed the girl time to cool down and cop on

Children are not adults

Teaching manners is her parents job

Teaching is a job

Going to school is not a job, it is an opportunity to be educated

I think it worked quite well as a means to allow the rest of the class continue so no other action is needed.

If the behavior re-occurs the repeat and call the parents

Based on your responses in this thread I don't believe you would recognise anything as an answer if it disagreed with your viewpoint.

All of the above is by your definition and your final point applies equally to your good self.

Any chance you might answer my previous question ? If this fails what would you propose to do next ?

fenris · 19-09-2012 1:00am

augustus gloop wrote: »

it was a punishment and it was humiliating.
As you say she is not an adult, hence she more than likely has the peer driven insecurity issues most teen girls have, making this singling out in front of her peers even worse.

Firstly her bad behavior singled her out not her teacher.
We are not getting the full story, for a kid to be excluded the following day indicates either another incident that day and/or a pattern of disruptive behavior that loving mum either does not know about or refuses to believe.

Removing her from the class is to protect the rights of the rest of the class to be educated and the right of the teacher to a safe and healthy workplace. This is not punishment or humiliation it is damage limitation, the teacher could have easily left the behavior escalate and left the girl walk herself into suspension.

If as you seem to believe the girl has emotional or psychological issues then they need to be resolved by her parents and whatever counsellors are necessary to enable the child to behave in a manner that will allow her to be educated without impacting the well behaved kids that were not removed from the class.

marienbad · 19-09-2012 1:04am

fenris wrote: »

Firstly her bad behavior singled her out not her teacher.
We are not getting the full story, for a kid to be excluded the following day indicates either another incident that day and/or a pattern of disruptive behavior that loving mum either does not know about or refuses to believe.

Removing her from the class is to protect the rights of the rest of the class to be educated and the right of the teacher to a safe and healthy workplace. This is not punishment or humiliation it is damage limitation, the teacher could have easily left the behavior escalate and left the girl walk herself into suspension.

If as you seem to believe the girl has emotional or psychological issues then they need to be resolved by her parents and whatever counsellors are necessary to enable the child to behave in a manner that will allow her to be educated without impacting the well behaved kids that were not removed from the class.

So if this dos'nt work what would you propose next ?

fenris · 19-09-2012 1:17am

marienbad wrote: »

All of the above is by your definition and your final point applies equally to your good self.

Actually it does not at all, I have explained my reasoning and answered / clarified points addressed to me.

What do you disagree with and why?

marienbad wrote: »

Any chance you might answer my previous question ? If this fails what would you propose to do next ?

I already have - remove her from the class again and call in her parents.

Other suggestions:
Maybe get an undertaking from her parents regarding her behaviour, she is a child that means that her parents are responsible for her behavior and actions until she is 18.

If she is not capable of behaving in that level of school environment then maybe thing about keeping her back a year to give an opportunity to mature a bit.

Have all of her teachers keep a log of her behaviour and if necessary have it signed off on a weekly basis by her parents. That way they cannot deny knowledge. If the behavior improves then well and good, if not it is evidence that can be used to get her whatever additional support or intervention she needs to function in a normal class environment.

Now, what would you do differently that would protect the non-problem children and allow them to get the benefit of the school time available?

fenris · 19-09-2012 1:27am

augustus gloop wrote: »

Also, the whole punishment was 100% placed to humiliate, if the teacher removed her during the class, that would be something, the fact she waited until the next day does nothing to remedy disruption.

Another poster has highlighted the reasons why it may have been impractical to remove her during the class assuming that the timeline as presented by the OP is correct.

The fact that she was removed the next day and that an arrangement was in place to facilitate that action implies that there is a lot more going on that the OP has disclosed. I would guess that there was much more than just a bit of laughing. Removal from the class means that other in class measures have failed to sort out the behavior. My guess is that the girl is on her way to suspension for a pattern of bad behavior.

This is nothing to do with humiliation or punishment, it is about allowing the well behaved kids to continue with their education while limiting the potential damage by the misbehaving girl.

marienbad · 19-09-2012 2:14am

fenris wrote: »

Actually it does not at all, I have explained my reasoning and answered / clarified points addressed to me.

What do you disagree with and why?

I already have - remove her from the class again and call in her parents.

Other suggestions:
Maybe get an undertaking from her parents regarding her behaviour, she is a child that means that her parents are responsible for her behavior and actions until she is 18.

If she is not capable of behaving in that level of school environment then maybe thing about keeping her back a year to give an opportunity to mature a bit.

Have all of her teachers keep a log of her behaviour and if necessary have it signed off on a weekly basis by her parents. That way they cannot deny knowledge. If the behavior improves then well and good, if not it is evidence that can be used to get her whatever additional support or intervention she needs to function in a normal class environment.

Now, what would you do differently that would protect the non-problem children and allow them to get the benefit of the school time available?

What would I do differently ?

I would do exactly as you suggest with one exception - I would dispense with the facing the wall stuff. Why - aside from the humiliation aspect and the fact that it is 20 years out of date - you have just shown it is a dead end , you can't go any further with that kind of discipline so why proceed down a false avenue in the first place.

fenris · 19-09-2012 7:28am

So you would potentiallly allow her to distract and disrupt another class also?

I disagree that it is a "dead end" and I don't believe that has been demonstrated at all. Thre is no humiliation, it is not as if she is wearing a dunces cap.

She was removed from a situation of her own creation and not allowed to distract the other children. Facing the wall means that she cannot get the attention of the other kids through silly antics.

How would you have prevented that behavior - given that telling her to stop has obviously proven ineffective?

SerialComplaint · 19-09-2012 8:08am

tap wrote: »

I'm not up in arms just don't like the fact she was made face the wall. Thought it was pretty outdated punishment.

Have you checked the school's discipline policy? What does it say about appropriate forms of punishment?

augustus gloop · 19-09-2012 10:27am

Im sorry fenris, I, by the way have no emotional attachment, I am a 30 year old single male. anyway, I disagree with almost every point you make. Guess we will have to leave it like that.

Piliger · 19-09-2012 1:30pm

nacimroc wrote: »

I have changed my mind about public sector pay! Double their pay for putting up with some of these people!

Well I don't know about the pay

.... but it is amazing the kind of nonsensical attitude these parents have about their precious misbehaving children. It is no wonder so many are constantly disrupting classes and schools are having to spend such enormous amounts of time dealing with so many problem children.
These parents refuse to discipline their children and then cry outrage and 'humiliation' FFS, when their school tries to !
When my now 20yo was in school I told each teacher to show zero tolerance and made it clear to him that this was the case. Put him out in the corridor, against the wall, into the girls classes, whatever. If he wanted to avoid it then behave.
My only disagreement with the head was over the no fighting rule. I told him that my son would defend himself, and damn the rules. he would wink and say that's no problem. It happened a few times but was sorted quickly enough.
Far too few schools have quality heads in place, who have any way decent managerial skills.

Pawwed Rig · 19-09-2012 1:56pm

Another poster has already stated that there is no training given to teachers to deal with misbehaving students. In a class there will always be a range of children from different backgrounds. If a teacher is unable to deal with them and resorts to this nonsense of making them face a wall for an hour then the teacher needs to look into paying for their own training to address the issues they are having in the class. Maybe get onto the ASTI to organise courses during the summer/Christmas holidays in affective disciplinary techniques.