Parades commission is useless and toothless

Fenian Army

Seven police officers have been injured when trouble flared after a loyalist band defied a ruling not to march past a Catholic church.

The Young Conway Volunteers had been banned from parading past St Patrick’s Church on Donegall Street, Belfast, after being filmed playing an allegedly sectarian song at the spot during July 12 demonstrations.

The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) said seven officers were injured after violence broke out in the area as the Shankill Road band marched past the church.

A number of bands played music between Clifton Street and Unity Street area, which police also said was a breach.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/seven-officers-hurt-after-belfast-violence-564357.html

The following video shows the violence and towards the end the original incident which led to the ban

The Shankill Road-based band was filmed walking around in circles outside the church on 12 July and said it was "pure chance" that they had come to a halt there.

The band also said they were not playing the Famine Song, an anti-Irish song that originated in Glasgow.

The Famine Song is sung to the music of the Beach Boys' Sloop John B, but replaces the chorus "I feel so broke up, I wanna go home" with "The famine is over, why don't you go home?".

The Justiciary Appeal Court in Scotland has ruled that the song is racist.

"The tune we were playing is actually a Beach Boy song titled Sloop John B," the band's statement said.

"The singing of words that some supporters associated with the tune the band was playing at the time was perhaps unfortunate and may have just been a by-product of the exuberance of the day of celebration of our culture and history."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19305863

While media reports initially claimed it was unclear how the trouble started, a number of video recordings published online show a loyalist supporter pulling a banner which reads ‘Respect St Patrick’s Church’ out of the hands of peaceful protesters. A number of PSNI officers then rush down the road in an attempt to defuse the situation while missiles can be seen being thrown at residents and police from where loyalist supporters – including DUP representatives – had gathered.

North Belfast Sinn Féin MLA Carál Ní Chuilín, who was present at the scene, told reporters:

“I think it is an absolute disgrace. What we had here was political unionism pandering to populism – which is total cowardice. After what happened outside this chapel on the Twelfth, what they need to do is use their influence in a positive way instead of turning to rabble rousing.”

Local parish priest Father Michael Sheehan told reporters at the scene:

“I could not believe that every band which came down today went out of their way to breach the Parades Commission determination and to insult the people who gathered.”

Carál Ní Chuilín also called on local DUP MP Nigel Dodds (right) “to come out and make a clear statement condemning these breaches of the determination and law breaking”.

Dodds did issue a statement but instead of condemning the loyalist bands he claimed that it was inevitable that loyalist bands would decide “enough is enough” over parade restrictions.

Dodds also claimed there had been a “republican attack and incursion into the parade” despite video evidence which shows a loyalist attack on peacefully protesting residents.

http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/22153


Video of the bands defying the parades commission, loyalist violence and towards the end the incident which prompted the banning.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/parade-violence-sort-out-this-mess-demand-officers-caught-in-the-middle-16203375.html
With DUP politicians cheer-leading sectarian bands and openly defiant actions like this and publishing open letters calling for the parades commission to be shut down it's apparent that the commission is now (always has been to a degree) useless and toothless. But now that its rulings are being openly defied (with little punishment I'm sure) with the approval of unionist and loyalist groups how can any community have faith in its rulings? Faith that restrictions will be honored? Paul Maskey touched on this in a statement today;

Sinn Féin MP for West Belfast Paul Maskey has said that the failure of the DUP to condemn those involved in sectarian and illegal behaviour outside St Patrick’s Church is not only a lack of political leadership but exposes as a sham the years of patronising nationalists and republicans on the issue of law and order.

Mr Maskey said:

“Since the disgraceful scenes outside St Patrick’s church on Saturday when Unionist politicians acted as cheer-leaders for loyalist bands breaking the law, the DUP have continually refused to condemn those involved.

"This from a party, despite its own connections to the Third Force and the Ulster Resistance, who have made a career out of patronising nationalists and republicans on the issue of law and order.

“The problem for Nigel Dodds and Nelson McCausland is clear – the cameras in Donegal Street on Saturday showed exactly what happened.

"They showed hundreds of incidents of law breaking, they showed unionist politicians being part of that parade. They showed unionists politicians instead of showing leadership aligning themselves with base sectarian and blatantly illegal behaviour.

“The next stage in this process now needs to be a robust PSNI investigation. That investigation needs to be prompt and nationalists need to see those who so blatantly broke the Parades Commission determination brought before the courts and prosecuted.”

The marching problem can only get worse from here, groups like the OO won't engage with the PC. Or with residents. Or with locally elected representatives from the nationalist community.

Unionists have repeatedly called for the abolishment of the PC, but haven't outlined any realistic alternative, they don't want any restrictions. I don't think the parades commission is fit for purpose, I think local communities should have the final say on who marches on their doorstep, but some form of compromise is probably necessary.

Given that the commission has failed utterly to defuse contentious issues, and in fact has exasperated tensions in places, coupled with the fact it is now being ignored, is there an alternative?

junder

Fenian Army wrote: »

Seven police officers have been injured when trouble flared after a loyalist band defied a ruling not to march past a Catholic church.

The Young Conway Volunteers had been banned from parading past St Patrick’s Church on Donegall Street, Belfast, after being filmed playing an allegedly sectarian song at the spot during July 12 demonstrations.

The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) said seven officers were injured after violence broke out in the area as the Shankill Road band marched past the church.

A number of bands played music between Clifton Street and Unity Street area, which police also said was a breach.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/seven-officers-hurt-after-belfast-violence-564357.html

The following video shows the violence and towards the end the original incident which led to the ban

The Shankill Road-based band was filmed walking around in circles outside the church on 12 July and said it was "pure chance" that they had come to a halt there.

The band also said they were not playing the Famine Song, an anti-Irish song that originated in Glasgow.

The Famine Song is sung to the music of the Beach Boys' Sloop John B, but replaces the chorus "I feel so broke up, I wanna go home" with "The famine is over, why don't you go home?".

The Justiciary Appeal Court in Scotland has ruled that the song is racist.

"The tune we were playing is actually a Beach Boy song titled Sloop John B," the band's statement said.

"The singing of words that some supporters associated with the tune the band was playing at the time was perhaps unfortunate and may have just been a by-product of the exuberance of the day of celebration of our culture and history."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19305863

While media reports initially claimed it was unclear how the trouble started, a number of video recordings published online show a loyalist supporter pulling a banner which reads ‘Respect St Patrick’s Church’ out of the hands of peaceful protesters. A number of PSNI officers then rush down the road in an attempt to defuse the situation while missiles can be seen being thrown at residents and police from where loyalist supporters – including DUP representatives – had gathered.

North Belfast Sinn Féin MLA Carál Ní Chuilín, who was present at the scene, told reporters:

“I think it is an absolute disgrace. What we had here was political unionism pandering to populism – which is total cowardice. After what happened outside this chapel on the Twelfth, what they need to do is use their influence in a positive way instead of turning to rabble rousing.”

Local parish priest Father Michael Sheehan told reporters at the scene:

“I could not believe that every band which came down today went out of their way to breach the Parades Commission determination and to insult the people who gathered.”

Carál Ní Chuilín also called on local DUP MP Nigel Dodds (right) “to come out and make a clear statement condemning these breaches of the determination and law breaking”.

Dodds did issue a statement but instead of condemning the loyalist bands he claimed that it was inevitable that loyalist bands would decide “enough is enough” over parade restrictions.

Dodds also claimed there had been a “republican attack and incursion into the parade” despite video evidence which shows a loyalist attack on peacefully protesting residents.

http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/22153


Video of the bands defying the parades commission, loyalist violence and towards the end the incident which prompted the banning.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/parade-violence-sort-out-this-mess-demand-officers-caught-in-the-middle-16203375.html
With DUP politicians cheer-leading sectarian bands and openly defiant actions like this and publishing open letters calling for the parades commission to be shut down it's apparent that the commission is now (always has been to a degree) useless and toothless. But now that its rulings are being openly defied (with little punishment I'm sure) with the approval of unionist and loyalist groups how can any community have faith in its rulings? Faith that restrictions will be honored? Paul Maskey touched on this in a statement today;

Sinn Féin MP for West Belfast Paul Maskey has said that the failure of the DUP to condemn those involved in sectarian and illegal behaviour outside St Patrick’s Church is not only a lack of political leadership but exposes as a sham the years of patronising nationalists and republicans on the issue of law and order.

Mr Maskey said:

“Since the disgraceful scenes outside St Patrick’s church on Saturday when Unionist politicians acted as cheer-leaders for loyalist bands breaking the law, the DUP have continually refused to condemn those involved.

"This from a party, despite its own connections to the Third Force and the Ulster Resistance, who have made a career out of patronising nationalists and republicans on the issue of law and order.

“The problem for Nigel Dodds and Nelson McCausland is clear – the cameras in Donegal Street on Saturday showed exactly what happened.

"They showed hundreds of incidents of law breaking, they showed unionist politicians being part of that parade. They showed unionists politicians instead of showing leadership aligning themselves with base sectarian and blatantly illegal behaviour.

“The next stage in this process now needs to be a robust PSNI investigation. That investigation needs to be prompt and nationalists need to see those who so blatantly broke the Parades Commission determination brought before the courts and prosecuted.”

The marching problem can only get worse from here, groups like the OO won't engage with the PC. Or with residents. Or with locally elected representatives from the nationalist community.

Unionists have repeatedly called for the abolishment of the PC, but haven't outlined any realistic alternative, they don't want any restrictions. I don't think the parades commission is fit for purpose, I think local communities should have the final say on who marches on their doorstep, but some form of compromise is probably necessary.

Given that the commission has failed utterly to defuse contentious issues, and in fact has exasperated tensions in places, coupled with the fact it is now being ignored, is there an alternative?

Do you support the parades commission and it's determinations?

Fenian Army

junder wrote: »

Do you support the parades commission and it's determinations?

I dont think it's perfect and has made some daft decisions that, truth be told, have made things worse.


However, I agree with Terry Spence, head of the North's Police Federation when he says;

“The Parades Commission do not always get it right but they are the only show in town and the unionists have not come up with an alternative,” he added.

Being a band member I bet you are not a fan of the restrictions. Could you explain to us how restrictions etc and punishments for breaches like this are eroding PUL culture?

You are also better suited to give us an insight into the thinking behind things like what happened in Ardoyne, where marchers got bussed through the places they are welcome, so they would be able to march in the contentious area?

junder

Fenian Army wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Do you support the parades commission and it's determinations?

I dont think it's perfect and has made some daft decisions that, truth be told, have made things worse.


However, I agree with Terry Spence, head of the North's Police Federation when he says;

“The Parades Commission do not always get it right but they are the only show in town and the unionists have not come up with an alternative,” he added.

Being a band member I bet you are not a fan of the restrictions. Could you explain to us how restrictions etc and punishments for breaches like this are eroding PUL culture?

You are also better suited to give us an insight into the thinking behind things like what happened in Ardoyne, where marchers got bussed through the places they are welcome, so they would be able to march in the contentious area?

From our point of view we are punished no
Matter what we do, this July being a prime example, the parades commission made an absurd determination that the lodge had to be up parading past the arydone shops at 4pm, knowing full well that the entire 12th parade would only be leaving the field at 4pm. This ment that if the lodge concerned wanted to be back in time they would have to turn around and leave the field as soon as they got there, miss out on the ceremony's st the field and repeat without rest what is a fairly brutal walk back (I say brutal as somebody who is no longer a spring chicken, however for some bands and lodges the entire 12th route there and back can over 20miles). On top of this the parades commission allows a so called protest parade to go ahead at the time that the lodge would normally have be returning. Dispite all this the lodge complied with the parades commission and sent a token group up to parade at the assigned time, and again dispite this republicans still rioted. As they did last year dispite the orange lodge complying with the parades commission. And lets get something straight, the lodge does not parade through the arydone, it passes a small part of it at the top of the crumlin road, it takes all of 5 minutes to pass the perticuler part of the arydone as it transits along a main artial route back to its own area which is further up past the arydone.
From my own bands point of view, we are not even allowed to parade down our own road, and since there is no other alternative route we have no choice but to hire a bus to drive is the 200ms down the road so we can continue our way into the city center. Also to clarify the loyal orders have been involved in face to face dialogue with residents groups and thier political
Representatives.

To finish I would just like to add that small as my band is, it and our bandhall (as well as the orange hall) preform vital social function for a community that is very much the minorty In the perticuler part of Belfast we are based. Also we are the oldest band on this island with a traceable history of 130 years, we carry no paramiltary flags or flags that could be interptred as such

Nodin

Over reading the significance of the incident in question, tbh. Just one shower acting the maggot. Doubtless they'll be watched in future.

It would be better, however, regardless of the commission, if the OO had direct dealings with the residents.

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

Do you support the parades commission and it's determinations?

Is this the only comment you have to make about the OP's concerns?

What do you have to say about:

1. the band defying the ruling not to march
2. the band being allowed to march by whoever's in charge
3. the idiot who pulled down the banner
4. so-called 'loyalists' kicking off a fracas

All marches should be banned from passing the church until these people learn that it's not 1690 1960 any more - the days of trampling over nationalist community for kicks is over and it's never coming back.

What a bunch of losers.

Fenian Army

junder wrote: »

From our point of view we are punished no
Matter what we do, this July being a prime example, the parades commission made an absurd determination that the lodge had to be up parading past the arydone shops at 4pm, knowing full well that the entire 12th parade would only be leaving the field at 4pm. This ment that if the lodge concerned wanted to be back in time they would have to turn around and leave the field as soon as they got there, miss out on the ceremony's st the field and repeat without rest what is a fairly brutal walk back (I say brutal as somebody who is no longer a spring chicken, however for some bands and lodges the entire 12th route there and back can over 20miles). On top of this the parades commission allows a so called protest parade to go ahead at the time that the lodge would normally have be returning. Dispite all this the lodge complied with the parades commission and sent a token group up to parade at the assigned time, and again dispite this republicans still rioted. As they did last year dispite the orange lodge complying with the parades commission. And lets get something straight, the lodge does not parade through the arydone, it passes a small part of it at the top of the crumlin road, it takes all of 5 minutes to pass the perticuler part of the arydone as it transits along a main artial route back to its own area which is further up past the arydone.
From my own bands point of view, we are not even allowed to parade down our own road, and since there is no other alternative route we have no choice but to hire a bus to drive is the 200ms down the road so we can continue our way into the city center. Also to clarify the loyal orders have been involved in face to face dialogue with residents groups and thier political
Representatives.

To finish I would just like to add that small as my band is, it and our bandhall (as well as the orange hall) preform vital social function for a community that is very much the minorty In the perticuler part of Belfast we are based. Also we are the oldest band on this island with a traceable history of 130 years, we carry no paramiltary flags or flags that could be interptred as such

Surely if its ok to bus along part of the route, it would be ok to bus past the contentious bit? Seen as its only 5 mins worth of a march? Getting a bus along the uncontested bit to march where there will be aggro makes it look like the entire point of the march was to stick it to the residents in the Ardoyne who don't want the parade passing.

Why isn't there anger directed at the UVF aligned Young Conway Volunteers who stopped and played a sectarian song outside a church?


Why support them defying the ban? Should they not have been told to feck off and not allowed march? Playing the famine song outside a church isn't culture. Instead of supporting them and parroting the rubbish excuse they came up with they should have been told to go away, that their behavior wasn't acceptable. That would have been something that would have been respected, instead you have the text message nonsense.

Being from Belfast you'll know that this isn't the only time in recent years there has been controversy over loyalist bans stopping outside churches and singing songs like the sash. http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2007/aug27_residents_call_band_prosecutions.php

I will admit that the PC has messed up, which I why I'm asking if there is a fair alternative.

Fenian Army

Nodin wrote: »

Over reading the significance of the incident in question, tbh. Just one shower acting the maggot. Doubtless they'll be watched in future.

It would be better, however, regardless of the commission, if the OO had direct dealings with the residents.

You reckon? Looks to me like they are done with the PC.

westies4ever

I am born and reared in the North and I moved to The Republic in 2000. Its the one thing I miss the least - being hemmed into the house at parade times. The totla inconvenience of it all.

I will never ever understand it as culture. One day, the 12th of July ok but it goes on for weeks if not months on end. If you want to march, why cant you all find a big field and march around it to your hearts content???

woodoo

westies4ever wrote: »

I am born and reared in the North and I moved to The Republic in 2000. Its the one thing I miss the least - being hemmed into the house at parade times. The totla inconvenience of it all.

I will never ever understand it as culture. One day, the 12th of July ok but it goes on for weeks if not months on end. If you want to march, why cant you all find a big field and march around it to your hearts content???

Great point and one i hope Junder addresses. I'd guess he/they doesn't give a damn that you are hemmed into your house and that it happens intermittently all summer. They want to march and that is all that matters to them, and in their hearts the inconvience to nationalists is all part of the experience to them.

Another point he might address is why they are bussed to the very point of contention? Is this marching culture dependent on antagonising taigs as much an anything else.

I would favour a much tougher stance on marches. A few set days during the year and no passing contentious areas. But where would the excitement and buzz be then. They would get bored marching past their friends houses.

SocSocPol

Fenian Army wrote: »

Surely if its ok to bus along part of the route, it would be ok to bus past the contentious bit? Seen as its only 5 mins worth of a march? Getting a bus along the uncontested bit to march where there will be aggro makes it look like the entire point of the march was to stick it to the residents in the Ardoyne who don't want the parade passing.

Why isn't there anger directed at the UVF aligned Young Conway Volunteers who stopped and played a sectarian song outside a church?


Why support them defying the ban? Should they not have been told to feck off and not allowed march? Playing the famine song outside a church isn't culture. Instead of supporting them and parroting the rubbish excuse they came up with they should have been told to go away, that their behavior wasn't acceptable. That would have been something that would have been respected, instead you have the text message nonsense.

Being from Belfast you'll know that this isn't the only time in recent years there has been controversy over loyalist bans stopping outside churches and singing songs like the sash. http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2007/aug27_residents_call_band_prosecutions.php

I will admit that the PC has messed up, which I why I'm asking if there is a fair alternative.

Dont die of shock now , but I totally agree with you. There is no reason for any group to march through any area where they are unwanted and where by their behaviour,beliefs, symbols and attire they know that they are unwelcome.
It's time that the UK's Incitment to Hatred legislation was applied to Northern Ireland with regard to marches, speeches, murals and public displays of bigrotry.

woodoo

SocSocPol wrote: »

Dont die of shock now , but I totally agree with you. There is no reason for any group to march through any area where they are unwanted and where by their behaviour,beliefs, symbols and attire they know that they are unwelcome.
It's time that the UK's Incitment to Hatred legislation was applied to Northern Ireland with regard to marches, speeches, murals and public displays of bigrotry.

Great point.

Chuck Stone

They should just ban them from walking past that area until the Parades Commission and/or local community is given a cast iron guarantee by the protagonists that the march will be silent 50 meters before and after the church.

If the 50m(Church)50m ban is breached it should come with a 5 year ban from marching past at all.

More stick and less carrot is what's needed for these people.

SocSocPol

Chuck Stone wrote: »

They should just ban them from walking past that area until the Parades Commission and/or local community is given a cast iron guarantee by the protagonists that the march will be silent 50 meters before and after the church.

If the 50m(Church)50m ban is breached it should come with a 5 year ban from marching past at all.

More stick and less carrot is what's needed for these people.

So you consider it ok to sing bigoted and offensive songs so long as you do it nore than 50 metres from a Church. If these songs incite hatred and/or are bigoted or knowingly offensive they should be banned completley!

Chuck Stone

SocSocPol wrote: »

So you consider it ok to sing bigoted and offensive songs so long as you do it nore than 50 metres from a Church.

If people can't hear them they have no impact I guess.

If these songs incite hatred and/or are bigoted or knowingly offensive they should be banned completley!

And play into the loyalist/unionist persecution complex? I'm not sure that's advisable. No point in using a hammer to crack a nut.

Besides, that type of sectarianism looks like it's on the wane anyway so better not to give them a reason to feel aggrieved imo.

SocSocPol

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If people can't hear them they have no impact I guess.



And play into the loyalist/unionist persecution complex? I'm not sure that's advisable. No point in using a hammer to crack a nut.

Besides, that type of sectarianism looks like it's on the wane anyway so better not to give them a reason to feel aggrieved imo.

My problem with bigrotry is best summed up by Voltaire's quote "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities". Consequently I do believe that bigotry and sectariansm should be challenged always and everywhere, as appeasment is the bigots best friend.

Chuck Stone

SocSocPol wrote: »

My problem with bigrotry is best summed up by Voltaire's quote "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities". Consequently I do believe that bigotry and sectariansm should be challenged always and everywhere, as appeasment is the bigots best friend.

If we've learned anything from the troubles I think we've learned that violence loves a political vacuum and getting all forceful against loyalists will only lead to people running for the trenches, nobody talking, and vacuums inviting violence.

I think the best outcome would be if the marchers sat with the local community and they both came to an accommodation with each other.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

SocSocPol

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If we've learned anything from the troubles I think we've learned that violence loves a political vacuum and getting all forceful against loyalists will only lead to people running for the trenches, nobody talking, and vacuums inviting violence.

I think the best outcome would be if the marchers sat with the local community and they both came to an accommodation with each other.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

I wholly agree with that however the OO have consistantly made it clear that they will not talk to a lower caste under any circumstances.

junder

http://i.pgu.me/eqbn0f25_original.jpg


http://i.pgu.me/B5ZdcAoQ_original.jpg

http://i.pgu.me/3_oFLY8r_original.jpg

Some examples of republican parades

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

SocSocPol wrote: »

My problem with bigrotry is best summed up by Voltaire's quote "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities". Consequently I do believe that bigotry and sectariansm should be challenged always and everywhere, as appeasment is the bigots best friend.

If we've learned anything from the troubles I think we've learned that violence loves a political vacuum and getting all forceful against loyalists will only lead to people running for the trenches, nobody talking, and vacuums inviting violence.

I think the best outcome would be if the marchers sat with the local community and they both came to an accommodation with each other.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

We have been talking to residents groups and thier political representatives and get rewarded with even more punative restrictions, we are damned if we do dammed if we don't. And as a consequence we have been backed into a corner.

woodoo

junder wrote: »

http://i.pgu.me/eqbn0f25_original.jpg


http://i.pgu.me/B5ZdcAoQ_original.jpg

http://i.pgu.me/3_oFLY8r_original.jpg

Some examples of republican parades

You love a bit of whataboutery junder.

K-9

junder wrote: »

http://i.pgu.me/eqbn0f25_original.jpg


http://i.pgu.me/B5ZdcAoQ_original.jpg

http://i.pgu.me/3_oFLY8r_original.jpg

Some examples of republican parades

Yes Republicans parade too, can you leave that for another thread and keep this one on topic. Maybe answer some of the questions asked of you, would be interesting to get your perspective rather than the usual whataboutery, from both sides.

Dubhlinner

In this case its obvious the loyalists are unambiguously completely to blame. Like with the annual ardoyne hatefest its obvious the republicans are unambiguously completely to blame.

Its a sad indictment on society up there that not one politician from either side has the bravery to call these things out for what they are. Every time SF/SDLP will side with the protesters and DUP/UUP/Jim Allistair will side with the marchers no matter how obvious which side is in the wrong. Then Alliance will say something wishy washy. Sickening

Richard

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If people can't hear them they have no impact I guess.

But even if other people don't hear them (which is debatable), the singing of such songs reinforce their acceptability. This isn't a good thing.

Although the vast majority of parades are non-contentious and I'm sure a good day out for all involved, the loyal orders and their followers are in danger of causing more restrictions to their parades, rather than fewer.

Most people in Northern Ireland are not interested in loyalist parades. A significant number of these people are hostile to parades. If silly behaviour such as that nonsense outside the church continues, many of the apathetic people will become hostile.

Don't they get it?

oppenheimer1

Fenian Army wrote: »

I dont think it's perfect and has made some daft decisions that, truth be told, have made things worse.


However, I agree with Terry Spence, head of the North's Police Federation when he says;




Being a band member I bet you are not a fan of the restrictions. Could you explain to us how restrictions etc and punishments for breaches like this are eroding PUL culture?

You are also better suited to give us an insight into the thinking behind things like what happened in Ardoyne, where marchers got bussed through the places they are welcome, so they would be able to march in the contentious area?

I'm also very interested in Junders response to this. Would it be that the parade was solely to antagonise those that didn't want it through their community? Is that what this PUL "culture" actually is?

Nodin

Fenian Army wrote: »

You reckon? Looks to me like they are done with the PC.

One band was involved in this. Again, I think its throwing a few babies out with the bathwater.

Fenian Army

As I understand it lots of bands violated the restriction by playing ,usic, it was supposed to be a singe drum beat? Could be wrong.

Sinn Féin MP for West Belfast Paul Maskey has urged the Orange Order to reflect on the disgraceful scenes outside St. Patrick’s church on Saturday and the serious offence caused to Catholics in the city and to take the heat out of the situation by avoiding parading past the church for the remainder of the marching season and in particular the massive parade going to Stormont in September.

Mr Maskey said:

“The sectarian behaviour displayed on Saturday outside St. Patrick’s is as clear a demonstration of what is wrong with parading in North Belfast as you are likely to see. Let people be very clear, these parades are a joint enterprise between the loyal orders and loyalist paramilitaries and in particular the UVF.

“Saturday shows they cannot be trusted to parade either lawfully or respectfully. They cannot be trusted to march past St Patricks Church. The Loyal Orders need to realise this, they need to take the heat out of this situation and they need to reroute themselves away from Donegal Street and St. Patrick’s church for the remainder of the marching season.

“Saturday’s blatant flouting of the law was a step too far. That is the sensible thing to do and it is the right thing to do in the wake of Saturday’s parade. There is an easily accessible and non contentious alternative route down the Shankill where the parade would be appreciated and into the city centre. The Orange Order now need to step up to the mark and follow the lead of the Protestant Church’s in recent days and show some leadership. ”

Maskey raises some good points, marches should steer clear of the area.

The leaders of the Protestant churches condemned the carry on of the loyalists, thats what he refers to.

Fenian Army

Thought this was interesting:

Sinn Fein MP Pat Doherty has lobbied for money for a loyalist flute band.

He wrote to the Arts Council backing funding for Castlederg Young Loyalist Flute Band.

The band's website includes sections on IRA atrocities, the controversial B Specials and lyrics to songs, including one glorifying UVF terrorist Brian Robinson who murdered a Catholic.


In his letter of support for £5,000, Mr Doherty wrote that the band had reached out to "all sections of the community."

The BBC obtained the letter, written on House of Commons notepaper in June 2011, as part of a Freedom of Information request on political lobbying in support of band funding applications.

He wrote: "I have had quite a bit of inter-action with the band and can unequivocally state they have made a huge contribution in helping to resolve community tensions in Castlederg."

Mr Doherty told the BBC he was not aware of the contents of the band's website, but it was "in transition."

He said: "I am not naïve but this application for new instruments was worth endorsing."

Mr Doherty was asked to write the letter by a third party.

A spokesman for the band said they were "a bit taken aback" to learn the Sinn Fein MP had lobbied for money for them.
Denied

He said: "We are not ashamed of who we are. Four of our members were murdered by the IRA."

But, like Mr Doherty, the spokesman pointed out that the band had participated in cross-border, folk and traditional music events, including those organised under the banner of European peace funding.

The application that Mr Doherty supported was turned down.

But it has just been awarded a £4,800 grant following a separate application, which the Arts Council said was successful as the band had signed up to community relations criteria.

The documentation released to the BBC also revealed a Sinn Fein councillor's backing for funding for another band from the "pro-Unionist marching" tradition.

Cookstown councillor Ciaran McElhone wrote to the Arts Council last October after Drumnacross flute band was denied funding.

According to his correspondence, the band's name had been used on a BEBO site whose content was deemed offensive.

But Cllr McElhone said the band neither commissioned nor condoned the site and the use of its name had been unauthorised.

He said he wanted the Arts Council to reconsider, saying also that the band was "uncontroversial among the Nationalist community."

junder

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Fenian Army wrote: »

I dont think it's perfect and has made some daft decisions that, truth be told, have made things worse.


However, I agree with Terry Spence, head of the North's Police Federation when he says;




Being a band member I bet you are not a fan of the restrictions. Could you explain to us how restrictions etc and punishments for breaches like this are eroding PUL culture?

You are also better suited to give us an insight into the thinking behind things like what happened in Ardoyne, where marchers got bussed through the places they are welcome, so they would be able to march in the contentious area?

I'm also very interested in Junders response to this. Would it be that the parade was solely to antagonise those that didn't want it through their community? Is that what this PUL "culture" actually is?

As I have already pointed out no lodge parades through the arydone, and yer we were created 130 years ago spend thousands on uniforms and instruments just to piss Catholics off. Funny thing is my band has long been involved in a cross community project involving an Irish langauge group and an Irish folk music group who we have shared a venue with, we even had a concert in our own band hall to which nationalist / republican groups were invited to and attended, the very same groups that refuse us the right to parade down a road that is as much ours as thiers

Border-Rat

This stuff doesn't really anger me anymore. Parades will cease to be a problem for us within 50 years. Certainly within a hundred. The people here with the uphill battle are the hatemongers, like the Orange Lodge. Loyalism is Counter-Cultural. It feeds off discontent and attention. Its lifeline in the North in he past 50 years has been a) An insecure Catholic minority and b) Outright conflict. These two feeding elements have been removed from the picture. Obviously, the conflict has ended. But more importantly Catholics in the North are beginning to find confidence, not least due to growing demographics (And a heightened status thanks to the IRA).

Never again will Catholics in the North be victims. This is a result of the ceasefire Downing St agreed to and the aforementioned demographics shift. The majority of people under 27 here now are Catholic. We are slowly taking over the institution and nerve centre of the 06 Counties. This means growth in relaxation, confidence and power - the exact antithesis to Loyalism. With that change in demography means change in culture. The overall body will eventually kill off germs - this is completely natural.

The future greening of Northern Ireland means death to Loyalism. Their hegemony is gone and next to go will be Catholics giving a damn about their protests. Eventually we'll own the Police, the civil service and anything else of importance.

All we have to do is wait - and astute Unionists who nowadays indulge in victimhood know it.

Richard

Border-Rat wrote: »

This stuff doesn't really anger me anymore. Parades will cease to be a problem for us within 50 years. Certainly within a hundred. The people here with the uphill battle are the hatemongers, like the Orange Lodge. Loyalism is Counter-Cultural. It feeds off discontent and attention. Its lifeline in the North in he past 50 years has been a) An insecure Catholic minority and b) Outright conflict. These two feeding elements have been removed from the picture. Obviously, the conflict has ended. But more importantly Catholics in the North are beginning to find confidence, not least due to growing demographics (And a heightened status thanks to the IRA).

Never again will Catholics in the North be victims. This is a result of the ceasefire Downing St agreed to and the aforementioned demographics shift. The majority of people under 27 here now are Catholic. We are slowly taking over the institution and nerve centre of the 06 Counties. This means growth in relaxation, confidence and power - the exact antithesis to Loyalism. With that change in demography means change in culture. The overall body will eventually kill off germs - this is completely natural.

The future greening of Northern Ireland means death to Loyalism. Their hegemony is gone and next to go will be Catholics giving a damn about their protests. Eventually we'll own the Police, the civil service and anything else of importance.

All we have to do is wait - and astute Unionists who nowadays indulge in victimhood know it.

Where do I start? Nobody "owns" the police. What happened to shared future?

Truth is, there isn't any prospect of a United Ireland in our lifetimes. The only thing that could conceivably change that is the actions of the loyalists we're discussing in this thread.

Fenian Army

Border-Rat wrote: »

This stuff doesn't really anger me anymore. Parades will cease to be a problem for us within 50 years. Certainly within a hundred. The people here with the uphill battle are the hatemongers, like the Orange Lodge. Loyalism is Counter-Cultural. It feeds off discontent and attention. Its lifeline in the North in he past 50 years has been a) An insecure Catholic minority and b) Outright conflict. These two feeding elements have been removed from the picture. Obviously, the conflict has ended. But more importantly Catholics in the North are beginning to find confidence, not least due to growing demographics (And a heightened status thanks to the IRA).

Never again will Catholics in the North be victims. This is a result of the ceasefire Downing St agreed to and the aforementioned demographics shift. The majority of people under 27 here now are Catholic. We are slowly taking over the institution and nerve centre of the 06 Counties. This means growth in relaxation, confidence and power - the exact antithesis to Loyalism. With that change in demography means change in culture. The overall body will eventually kill off germs - this is completely natural.

The future greening of Northern Ireland means death to Loyalism. Their hegemony is gone and next to go will be Catholics giving a damn about their protests. Eventually we'll own the Police, the civil service and anything else of importance.

All we have to do is wait - and astute Unionists who nowadays indulge in victimhood know it.

At the end of the September there is a massive parade going to Stormont - remembering the Ulster covenant, and it will pass by the church in question. This should not happen imo. Find an alternative route.

southsiderosie

George Walker wrote: »

Bands have been going for centuries. There will always be Ulster Protestants in Bands and celebrating the Protestant culture they have. You might not like it but you have to get over it.

Well done on this band sticking up for their rights as a people.

George Walker wrote: »

What have you got against George Walker? Stick to the topic.

George Walker wrote: »

No. They will march past the Church. You won't be able to stop them fenian.

MOD NOTE:

Permabanned

woodoo

Originally Posted by George Walker
Bands have been going for centuries. There will always be Ulster Protestants in Bands and celebrating the Protestant culture they have. You might not like it but you have to get over it.

Well done on this band sticking up for their rights as a people.


______________________________________________________

They may join bands but the days of them bothering ordinary decent people in their neighbourhoods, homes and churches is going to be a thing of the past soon. Especially as Northern Ireland continues on the road to civilisation. All down hill from here on George/Kieth.. the glory days are over.

junder

woodoo wrote: »

Originally Posted by George Walker
Bands have been going for centuries. There will always be Ulster Protestants in Bands and celebrating the Protestant culture they have. You might not like it but you have to get over it.

Well done on this band sticking up for their rights as a people.


______________________________________________________

They may join bands but the days of them bothering ordinary decent people in their neighbourhoods, homes and churches is going to be a thing of the past soon. Especially as Northern Ireland continues on the road to civilisation. All down hill from here on George/Kieth.. the glory days are over.

Band membership is on the increase and more bands are starting up the length and breadth of the uk. Even in towns and villages were Protestants are very much the minority there are bands being formed.

woodoo

junder wrote: »

Band membership is on the increase and more bands are starting up the length and breadth of the uk. Even in towns and villages were Protestants are very much the minority there are bands being formed.

There is an increase in bands in the south too. But they are not a problem. It is the antagonistic loyal and orange bands up north that cause the problems. I still believe the days of them closing down roads and neighbourhoods they are not welcome in from June to August is going to be a thing of the past.

Someone some day is going to say to the likes of that loyalist band that marched outside the catholic church - no more, thats it. You won't march there again. And the organs of the state will enforce it.

woodoo

By the way what the hell was Pat Doherty of Sinn Fein doing helping one of those bands from castlederg apply for money.

junder

woodoo wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Band membership is on the increase and more bands are starting up the length and breadth of the uk. Even in towns and villages were Protestants are very much the minority there are bands being formed.

There is an increase in bands in the south too. But they are not a problem. It is the antagonistic loyal and orange bands up north that cause the problems. I still believe the days of them closing down roads and neighbourhoods they are not welcome in from June to August is going to be a thing of the past.

Someone some day is going to say to the likes of that loyalist band that marched outside the catholic church - no more, thats it. You won't march there again. And the organs of the state will enforce it.

I guess you didn't understand what I said, loyalist / unionist flute bands are on the increase the length and breadth of the uk even in towns and villages where Protestants are very much the minority there are new loyslist / unionist bands forming and lets not forget my band that's 130 years old and still going strong.

woodoo

junder wrote: »

I guess you didn't understand what I said, loyalist / unionist flute bands are on the increase the length and breadth of the uk even in towns and villages where Protestants are very much the minority there are new loyslist / unionist bands forming and lets not forget my band that's 130 years old and still going strong.

Thats fine but you haven't understood the point i'm making. Nobody gives a damn if these bands march in non contentious areas. I don't see them having carte blanche to just march where they please in future. They will be stopped from going to places they are not welcome. Its the only way things can progress peacefully in the north.

junder

woodoo wrote: »

junder wrote: »

I guess you didn't understand what I said, loyalist / unionist flute bands are on the increase the length and breadth of the uk even in towns and villages where Protestants are very much the minority there are new loyslist / unionist bands forming and lets not forget my band that's 130 years old and still going strong.

Thats fine but you haven't understood the point i'm making. Nobody gives a damn if these bands march in non contentious areas. I don't see them having carte blanche to just march where they please in future. They will be stopped from going to places they are not welcome. Its the only way things can progress peacefully in the north.

Define not wanted, as I have said before on the road my band is from we are the minority, there are many nationalists and republicans that would like to see us put of the road, problem is we still live there to, it's still as much out road as thiers, are we going to get put of the road? Is it right that we could put of our road?

woodoo

junder wrote: »

Define not wanted, as I have said before on the road my band is from we are the minority, there are many nationalists and republicans that would like to see us put of the road, problem is we still live there to, it's still as much out road as thiers, are we going to get put of the road? Is it right that we could put of our road?

If the majority in an area don't want it then it shouldn't happen. If you are in a minority on your road and the majority don't want your band marching there then you should not be allowed march there imo. Ordinary people should not be hemmed into their houses so you can get dolled up like something from the 17th century to plod up and down the road all through the summer.

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

loyalist / unionist flute bands are on the increase the length and breadth of the uk

Could you provide a source for this please.

junder

woodoo wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Define not wanted, as I have said before on the road my band is from we are the minority, there are many nationalists and republicans that would like to see us put of the road, problem is we still live there to, it's still as much out road as thiers, are we going to get put of the road? Is it right that we could put of our road?

If the majority in an area don't want it then it shouldn't happen. If you are in a minority on your road and the majority don't want your band marching there then you should not be allowed march there imo. Ordinary people should not be hemmed into their houses so you can get dolled up like something from the 17th century to plod up and down the road all through the summer.

So it's majorty rule then is it, what if a black Jamaican steel band wanted to parade and the majority didn't want them parading with thier steel drums, should they get put of the road?

Moreover innour case Who exactly gets hemmed in? We have two police bikes and a handful of police officers on foot and in normal uniform to escort us up
The road, shops dont close, traffic still moves(all be it slower then usual until we pass) people come and go from thier houses

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

junder wrote: »

loyalist / unionist flute bands are on the increase the length and breadth of the uk

Could you provide a source for this please.

Sorry chum it's anecdotal evidence, it comes from going to band parades and talking to members of new bands and hearing of other new bands

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

Sorry chum it's anecdotal evidence, it comes from going to band parades and talking to members of new bands and hearing of other new bands

Well in fairness you made the claim as if it were an fact. Anecdotal evidence is unreliable.

The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases. Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a claim; it is accepted only in lieu of more solid evidence. This is true regardless of the veracity of individual claims.

Source

Dubhlinner

woodoo wrote: »

If the majority in an area don't want it then it shouldn't happen. If you are in a minority on your road and the majority don't want your band marching there then you should not be allowed march there imo. Ordinary people should not be hemmed into their houses so you can get dolled up like something from the 17th century to plod up and down the road all through the summer.

That doesn't work somewhere like north belfast where you have enclaves of catholic & protestant areas interspersed how is a band supposed to get from their base to the city centre

Fenian Army

Dubhlinner wrote: »

That doesn't work somewhere like north belfast where you have enclaves of catholic & protestant areas interspersed how is a band supposed to get from their base to the city centre

You compromise and let them march in silence with no paramilitary flags etc while they are in contested areas.

There wasn't that much of an issue with the route in question till the band acted the dick, that has snowballed and you had a whole parade march pass the church playing sectarian songs. When you take the piss like that the local community understandably will want no bands marching at all.

Dubhlinner

Fenian Army wrote: »

You compromise and let them march in silence with no paramilitary flags etc while they are in contested areas.

There wasn't that much of an issue with the route in question till the band acted the dick, that has snowballed and you had a whole parade march pass the church playing sectarian songs. When you take the piss like that the local community understandably will want no bands marching at all.

of the same opinion myself.that band should be banned marching anywhere they're not wanted next year to discourage that kind of behaviour

woodoo

Fenian Army wrote: »

You compromise and let them march in silence with no paramilitary flags etc while they are in contested areas.

There wasn't that much of an issue with the route in question till the band acted the dick, that has snowballed and you had a whole parade march pass the church playing sectarian songs. When you take the piss like that the local community understandably will want no bands marching at all.

That is hard to avoid as many are more interested in the confrontation that the culture.

Fenian Army

Dubhlinner wrote: »

of the same opinion myself.that band should be banned marching anywhere they're not wanted next year to discourage that kind of behaviour

They are due to march again at the end of this month AFAIK, be interesting to see what happens.

Chuck Stone

Fenian Army wrote: »

They are due to march again at the end of this month AFAIK, be interesting to see what happens.

I think the concerned locals are going to talk with representatives of the marchers (it was on the news). The Locals came out and said they are not seeking to stop the march and that they are just asking that the marchers exercise a bit of control when they pass the church.

Very dignified.

(this is from memory - I can't find the clip)

A body supporting loyalist marches has accepted an offer to engage in talks with a north Belfast priest, after violence erupted outside his church during Saturday's Black Institution Parades.

u.tv/News

Edit.

Residents of Carrick Hill said at a public meeting they wanted respect from the Loyal Orders, not re-routing.

bbc.co.uk/news