abortion

hattoncracker

hairyprincess wrote: »

I'm not forcing her into something else. She chose to have sex. She's an adult, having sex with another adult. If they aren't mature enough to deal with the consequences of their actions then they shouldn't be having sex.

"well, you're stuck with it now." should never be a reason to become a parent.

histories

christmas2012 wrote: »

Lets have the honest,bitter,unpalatable truth for once,abortions promote a careless sexual lifestyle whereby if you get pregnant you can just scratch out that part of your life,that life somehow becomes cheapened,and abortion for all is NOT THE ANSWER.

It sends out the WRONG MESSAGE TO GIRLS AND BOYS FULL STOP.You can have sex and NOT COMMIT.Sex used to be about committal now its about scratching that part of your life you if you dont like it,if it puts a dent on your current lifestyle YOU CAN SCRATCH IT OUT,how does that make sense.

Obviously i will be fair and give exception to those who were raped,or have an incestuous child,or otherwise have medical conditions or downs syndrome etc..

Indeed, let's have the honest, bitter, unpalatable truth for once. Deciding to have an abortion is THE single most difficult decision that any woman will ever have to make in her life. She will live with it for the rest of her life. This is the truth as much as you may not wish to believe it. Abortion does not promote careless sex. It provides women with an option. An option that is needed in this world due to the fact that the world we live in is so very far from perfect. People need choices and abortion has to be one of them.

As for the "you can have sex and not commit" comment, how many single mothers are out there because the man decided he didn't want to commit? We do live in a society where people have sex before marriage. Even if we lived in a world where there was no sex before marriage and no divorce people can still up and disappear because they have had enough of their lives. So the whole sex=commitment is a moot point really.

"Obviously i will be fair and give exception..." how very kind of you.

PieForPi

hairyprincess wrote: »

I'm not forcing her into something else. She chose to have sex. She's an adult, having sex with another adult. If they aren't mature enough to deal with the consequences of their actions then they shouldn't be having sex.

That argument doesn't hold much weight.

Yes, you are forcing her into something. That something being carrying and giving birth to a child she doesn't want, then providing for the child she doesn't want until it is of a legal age where she no longer has an obligation to it.

She may well have to do this alone also. Whereas, with access to abortion, she could remove the problem and carry on with her life, having a child when she was ready for it.

Abstinence holds no weight with me, father. Sex is the most natural thing we do. Its urges are something we are burdened with from a very young age and which govern a range of our decisions every moment of every day, subconsciously or consciously.

Society has evolved to a point where we can enjoy our sexual urges, which has a lot of benefits for our overall health, without an expectation of pregnancy. Accidents happen and exceptions happen and we now have the medical advances to deal with them in a quick and safe manner.

Instead, you want to say "fúck your aspirations and hopes for your life, you're having this child because I disagree with you not having it, despite it not impacting my life in any way".

That is extremely oppressive. Who are you to say what they can and cannot do with their bodies? If someone is immature and stupid enough to use the service as their primary contraception then let them, society and the gene pool is better off without them breeding. Do you understand why?

christmas2012

Abortion does not promote careless sex. It provides women with an option.

It gives a girl an option an option to scratch out the consequences of having sex with some stranger,or indeed even her long term boyfriend,when the sh!t hits the fan they dont want to know they just want to immeidately get rid of the 'problem',instead of facing it head on and maybe becoming a better or more mature person as a result of it..

So basically people who aren't ready or never want to have kids shouldn't be having sex?

if they are not prepared for the consequences of sex yes they shouldnt be having it,abortion can ruin lives too,those marie stopes clinics and their adverts should come with health warnings,the aftermath of an abortion can be VERY TRAUMATIC,AS WELL AS THE PROCEDURE ITSELF..

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

Abortion does not promote careless sex. It provides women with an option.

It gives a girl an option an option to scratch out the consequences of having sex with some stranger,or indeed even her long term boyfriend,when the sh!t hits the fan they dont want to know they just want to immeidately get rid of the 'problem',instead of facing it head on and maybe becoming a better or more mature person as a result of it..

So how many women do you know, and what evidence do you have to support these claims?

And why shouldn't she be able to "scratch it out" if she wants to? And why shouldn't she be able to get rid of the "problem?"

christmas2012

Thats the issue,its no longer seen as a valid consequence to have a family as a result of sex,it is now viewed as a problem that interferes with a sex life which is completely wrong,and sends out the wrong message to young teens and adults - that its okay to have sex without thinking of what the consequences might be,we live in the age of the throw away mentality and its basically saying there ARE NO CONSEQUENCES DO WHAT YOU LIKE,this is the reason why we have so many young people getting stung by abortion,and not to mention the rise in stds,live is not consequence free ,eventually you get caught out..

saiint

its the girls decision
if she wants the baby, she keeps it
if she doesnt want it, she can get an abortion
one way or another with out your say or the churchs say or even a poll in ireland preventing women from abortion
their still going to have an abortion if they want one,
dont know why some people are seriously over reacting to this (men) especially since you guys have no idea what its like to carry a baby (same as meself) until 'man' can truely understand what its like to carry a child for 9months
we shouldnt even have a say in all this, only women should be allowed until it comes to a time where your partner wants or doesnt want one when you do or dont want her to have one

lazygal

christmas2012 wrote: »

Thats the issue,its no longer seen as a valid consequence to have a family as a result of sex,it is now viewed as a problem that interferes with a sex life which is completely wrong,and sends out the wrong message to young teens and adults - that its okay to have sex without thinking of what the consequences might be,we live in the age of the throw away mentality and its basically saying there ARE NO CONSEQUENCES DO WHAT YOU LIKE,this is the reason why we have so many young people getting stung by abortion,and not to mention the rise in stds,live is not consequence free ,eventually you get caught out..

How many unwanted children have you adopted? You can have whatever opinions you like on who's having sex and what they do afterwards with an unwanted pregnancy, but if what they do doesn't affect your life, why do you care? I couldn't care less who has a baby or who has an abortion, because it doesn't affect my life, unlike having a child you don't want.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

Thats the issue,its no longer seen as a valid consequence to have a family as a result of sex,it is now viewed as a problem that interferes with a sex life which is completely wrong,and sends out the wrong message to young teens and adults - that its okay to have sex without thinking of what the consequences might be,we live in the age of the throw away mentality and its basically saying there ARE NO CONSEQUENCES DO WHAT YOU LIKE,this is the reason why we have so many young people getting stung by abortion,and not to mention the rise in stds,live is not consequence free ,eventually you get caught out..

"caught out" "consequence", very healthy attitude to parenting, I must say.

Abortion is a consequence of sex, just as pregnancy is. You want to affect kids catching STDs, then give better sex education than "you should be married", or "in love". And start it at a younger age, and teach about condoms. That's all you can do. Repressing sexual urges or preaching abstinence doesn't work. You only have to look at the states to see that.

Taking away abortion (and the morning after pill, if you follow that logic), just leaves a lot of scared desperate young women with very little options and that desperation can be dangerous.

saiint

christmas2012 wrote: »

Thats the issue,its no longer seen as a valid consequence to have a family as a result of sex,it is now viewed as a problem that interferes with a sex life which is completely wrong,and sends out the wrong message to young teens and adults - that its okay to have sex without thinking of what the consequences might be,we live in the age of the throw away mentality and its basically saying there ARE NO CONSEQUENCES DO WHAT YOU LIKE,this is the reason why we have so many young people getting stung by abortion,and not to mention the rise in stds,live is not consequence free ,eventually you get caught out..

so your telling me you didnt have sex before you got married?

you cant say that mate
condoms break
the pill doesnt always work

you cant say most teenagers dont think their are any consequences cause all of us know their is
at the same time
**** happens
condoms break
pills dont always work
cant help it
it happens

fair enough their are some people who just dont consider protection at all
but most people do
sure have ya never seen condoms around the streets? even people doing it outside are still thinking about protection haha

and i dont know where you got your statistics for STDS on the rise? ya their on the rise in africa probably but not here haha

christmas2012

dont laugh about it they are at their peek in kerry if you want to look it up do it by all means..

Repressing sexual urges or preaching abstinence doesn't work.

its not about repression its about making an informed choice and using contraception,if it doesnt work and you have gotten pregnant you should be able to deal with the consequences if you are happy enough to deal with sex..

life isnt consequence free and abortion does not teach the valuable lesson of eventually you will get caught out if you keep wanting to scracth away the resulting 'problem' from sex..if pregnancy doesnt get you an std might..

saiint

christmas2012 wrote: »

dont laugh about it they are at their peek in kerry if you want to look it up do it by all means..

who cares about kerry:pac:

coffee_cake

christmas2012 wrote: »

you should be able to deal with the consequences if you are happy enough to deal with sex..

abortion is a consequence

Sin City

Its getting very heated in here

Just to cool things down a bit

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

dont laugh about it they are at their peek in kerry if you want to look it up do it by all means..

Repressing sexual urges or preaching abstinence doesn't work.

its not about repression its about making an informed choice and using contraception,if it doesnt work and you have gotten pregnant you should be able to deal with the consequences if you are happy enough to deal with sex..

life isnt consequence free and abortion does not teach the valuable lesson of eventually you will get caught out if you keep wanting to scracth away the resulting 'problem' from sex..if pregnancy doesnt get you an std might..

Pregnancy and parenthood should not be seen as a punishment of sex! If your contraception fails it shouldn't be "right, fine, your life's over til you go through that pregnancy and raise that baby!"

hattoncracker

Sin City wrote: »

Its getting very heated in here

Just to cool things down a bit

Not too heated, Im loling reading some of the replies here!

Nodin

christmas2012 wrote: »

.......

life isnt consequence free and abortion does not teach the valuable lesson of eventually you will get caught out if you keep wanting to scracth away the resulting 'problem' from sex..if pregnancy doesnt get you an std might..

Google doesn't translate from the Cantonese very well, does it? Care to give it another go?

Sin City

Abortion as we all know is a very emotive topic and a lot of people (women especaily ) will say their bodies means their choice and that does have a certain truth to it, but those women may not be able to be impartial to the debate (I know Im gonna get hung drawn and quatered for this)

As most people have claimed , the majority only have abortions after thinking long and hard about it, and not use it as a form of birth control. They do not need religious groups or the church condemning them for their decisons or having to see those grousome images of unwanted dumpster babies thrown in their faces.


Religion should not play any part in legal matters, especaily in a secular state

If it was to become legal , at what point should their (if any) have a cut off point? The first trimester? , longer, ? up to 26 weeks?

Leaving the soul out of it (forget who mentioned it) when should it be possible to extinguish a life , or a potential person?

Should abortion be allowed accross the board , or should it only be in certain circumstances , eg the mothers life would be at risk , after rape or if any birth defects were dected ( All these points can be debated for pros and cons in themselves)

It will be interesting to see how and if this put before a referendum and how the people will vote

histories

christmas2012 wrote: »

It gives a girl an option an option to scratch out the consequences of having sex with some stranger,or indeed even her long term boyfriend,when the sh!t hits the fan they dont want to know they just want to immeidately get rid of the 'problem',instead of facing it head on and maybe becoming a better or more mature person as a result of it..



if they are not prepared for the consequences of sex yes they shouldnt be having it,abortion can ruin lives too,those marie stopes clinics and their adverts should come with health warnings,the aftermath of an abortion can be VERY TRAUMATIC,AS WELL AS THE PROCEDURE ITSELF..

The part that is in bold, that is an extremely blinkered approach to take to the world. Do you really believe that having a child is going to mature people? I live in what would be classed as a "dodgy" area and I can assure you from witnessing it on a daily basis that childbirth does not encourage these people to grow up and put their child first.

You do a massive disservice to women when you say it is as simple as scratching it out. If I were to get pregnant right now I would most likely have an abortion. I have been out of work for a long time, my savings are gone, I'm struggling to find work and I'm on the dole. The only thing I would have to offer a child is poverty*. On top of which I'm so far away from being ready to raise a child that I know I would be a terrible mother.

*Yes, we get benefits in this country but I will never condemn any child of mine to the same life I have lived. I want better for them.

Life is not black and white. You, nor I, have any idea the factors that will bring a woman to an abortion clinic. We can't know the life of other people. Be very slow to judge others for decisions that you may precieve as being wrong.

christmas2012

Pregnancy and parenthood should not be seen as a punishment of sex!

Im not saying that it should be a punishment,its a natural consequence youre reading into things that are not there and i havent explicity said either..scroll back to see what i said..consequence

Do you really believe that having a child is going to mature people?

You have no other option or alternative but to mature and grow up fast when you have a baby,you have someone else to think about other than yourself for once..It very much matures most of the population that decide to keep their children..

And i take insult to the way you say im taking a blinkered approach or doing a disservice to young women who choose to scratch that problem / consequence out of their lives..

It teaches them nothing about each consequence for each action,it takes that away completley and encourages a throw caution to the wind attitude that will soon catch up on them,by way of miscarraige later in life when they are trying for a baby or deep psychological problems due to the aftermath of abortion which can be a traumatic procedure in itself,and very painful procedure to go through..The women at the marie stopes clinic dont tell you that though they just say its all about a womans choice no big deal,but for a lot of women who survived abortion it is a big deal.These clinics should come with a health warning a lot of women going for those abortions dont know what they are letting themselves in for..

dharma200

"alot of women who have survived abortion"..

would you care to elaborate on the death tolls of Irish women who travel to the UK for terminations?

How many of the thousands of women put through the trauma of travelling abroad for a termination have not survived?

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

Pregnancy and parenthood should not be seen as a punishment of sex!

Im not saying that it should be a punishment,its a natural consequence youre reading into things that are not there and i havent explicity said either..scroll back to see what i said..consequence

Do you really believe that having a child is going to mature people?

You have no other option or alternative but to mature and grow up fast when you have a baby,you have someone else to think about other than yourself for once..It very much matures most of the population that decide to keep their children..

And i take insult to the way you say im taking a blinkered approach or doing a disservice to young women who choose to scratch that problem / consequence out of their lives..

It teaches them nothing about each consequence for each action,it takes that away completley and encourages a throw caution to the wind attitude that will soon catch up on them,by way of miscarraige later in life when they are trying for a baby or deep psychological problems due to the aftermath of abortion which can be a traumatic procedure in itself,and very painful procedure to go through..The women at the marie stopes clinic dont tell you that though they just say its all about a womans choice no big deal,but for a lot of women who survived abortion it is a big deal.These clinics should come with a health warning a lot of women going for those abortions dont know what they are letting themselves in for..

And for a lot of women, theyre fine. They know it's the right decision and they get on with life.

And as for the miscarriage thing, do you have any stats for increased rate of miscarriage after abortion or are you just scare-mongering?

How do you know all this stuff you claim to know about the aftermath of abortion? What makes you such an expert?

christmas2012

"alot of women who have survived abortion"..

would you care to elaborate on the death tolls of Irish women who travel to the UK for terminations?

How many of the thousands of women put through the trauma of travelling abroad for a termination have not survived?

What im saying is PSYCHOLOGICALLY SPEAKING THEY HAVE SURVIVED ABORTION..Its a trauma to go through and women arent fully informed about the procedure..

dharma200

christmas2012 wrote: »

What im saying is PSYCHOLOGICALLY SPEAKING THEY HAVE SURVIVED ABORTION..Its a trauma to go through and women arent fully informed about the procedure..

oh, right.... sure..... perhaps if you could be a little clearer in your wording to ensure I am totally informed... I feel psycological trauma is not equated with actual survival.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

"alot of women who have survived abortion"..

would you care to elaborate on the death tolls of Irish women who travel to the UK for terminations?

How many of the thousands of women put through the trauma of travelling abroad for a termination have not survived?

What im saying is PSYCHOLOGICALLY SPEAKING THEY HAVE SURVIVED ABORTION..Its a trauma to go through and women arent fully informed about the procedure..

So youre saying all the women in the world who have abortions aren't fully informed?

Riiight... So how many abortion clinics have you worked in?

I'll take a stab and guess.. none? They are fully informed, like any medical procedure, especially such a delicate one, they talk you through the procedure.

HowAreWe

I'll just leave this here. Nice to see which countries mirror our laws.

hattoncracker

HowAreWe wrote: »

I'll just leave this here. Nice to see which countries mirror our laws.

what do the colours mean? I can't see any key!

dharma200

orange = no access to legal termination... I am guessing seeing as ireland is orange

HowAreWe

hattoncracker wrote: »

what do the colours mean? I can't see any key!

Here.

PieForPi

HowAreWe wrote: »

I'll just leave this here. Nice to see which countries mirror our laws.

That really puts things into perspective, doesn't it?

Thanks for posting, great bit of information.