abortion

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

im not going down the route of abortion is wrong mmkay..but i think it should have a limit on it,it should only be available to suicidal rape victims,and those with medical problems or those with pregnancies such as downs or those incompatible with life etc..

that i would agree with,what i dont agree with and many people in ireland dont agree with is abortion on demand,whereby anybody can go in and get one done bc lets face it,they are thinking more about their lifestyle than the life they have,and that is pure selfish and careless..say what you like dress it up anyway you like but that is the truth of the matter..

anybody getting an abortion for ANY REASON .. to my mind and the minds and hearts of a lot of others in ireland is wrong..

So basically it should, in your eyes, only be available if you have to suffer for it.
If there's one thing that I really hate it's people who use this line.

It's all or none, conception details should not come into it.

Benji1974

As a wise men once said: if men could get pregnant there would be abortion clinics on every street corner and there would never have been any moral debate around the issue.

I agree that prevention is better than cure but mistakes do happen and always will. Abortion needs to be an option in this country and it will be. Thankfully the number of brainwashed wicked fanatics in this country is dwindling.

The term Pro-life is nonsense. The term Anti-abortion makes much more sense.

hattoncracker

Benji1974 wrote: »

As a wise men once said: if men could get pregnant there would be abortion clinics on every street corner and there would never have been any moral debate around the issue.

I agree that prevention is better than cure but mistakes do happen and always will. Abortion needs to be an option in this country and it will be. Thankfully the number of brainwashed wicked fanatics in this country is dwindling.

The term Pro-life is nonsense. The term Anti-abortion makes much more sense.

I tthink Pro Pregnancy was a better one, because they don't stick around after birth.

christmas2012

thats the problem its too widely available and when women get stung by abortion,its not talked about or as widely advertised as lets say getting an abortion,you see adverts for marie stopes clinics everywhere in the UK - they should come with a health warning.

abortion is not that simple

Actually it is..........if you want it to be.

Actually no its not that simple,its a decision a woman/girl has to live out the rest of her life for,it is sometimes more than tinged with regret,some women go on to try having a child in later years(as is the case in ireland now)and it is too late ,or she miscarries cos she is in her thirties..

So its not as straighforward as you make out,some women feel unwanted after their abortion,after an immature image concious guy might have pestered them into it..

Abortion is never simple,and doing it for a number of reasons is wrong,it should only be for emergency situations,but of course once you let that happen it could be unfortuantely a case of a foot in the door,i hate to sound like a cynic but thats how it could be made out to be..

It's all or none, conception details should not come into it.

Point out where exactly i said conception details should come into it,i said before that if it was a downs or something completey malformed where it was incompatible with life,or the woman was a suicidal victim of rape,or had other life threateing medical conditions,i would see fit to consider abortion as a last resort..

The problem with abortion for all is that you will find many women/girls going for them for all kinds of reasons,which doesnt make it right,and they havent even yet in their own minds considered the aftermath of such a decision they have to live the rest of their lives to deal with,it is a traumatic experience..

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

thats the problem its too widely available and when women get stung by abortion,its not talked about or as widely advertised as lets say getting an abortion,you see adverts for marie stopes clinics everywhere in the UK - they should come with a health warning.

abortion is not that simple

Actually it is..........if you want it to be.

Actually no its not that simple,its a decision a woman/girl has to live out the rest of her life for,it is sometimes more than tinged with regret,some women go on to try having a child in later years(as is the case in ireland now)and it is too late ,or she miscarries cos she is in her thirties..

So its not as straighforward as you make out,some women feel unwanted after their abortion,after an immature image concious guy might have pestered them into it..

Abortion is never simple,and doing it for a number of reasons is wrong,it should only be for emergency situations,but of course once you let that happen it could be unfortuantely a case of a foot in the door,i hate to sound like a cynic but thats how it could be made out to be..

Do you not use the same public transport as the rest of us? have you not seen those ridiculous ad campaigns for Youth Defence that are plastered everywhere?

Abortion generally is used for emergency situations... But your definition and someome else's definition of emergency could be totally different. It ain't called crisis pregnancy for nothing.

And Christmas, do you not think that the reason so many women have adverse reactions to it is because there are no adequate post abortion counselling services in Ireland? Or that it's such a taboo subject that it can be really hard to open up about it to anyone for fear of judgement? Or because theyre made feel like criminals?

christmas2012

It ain't called crisis pregnancy for nothing.

crisis pregnancy could be someone in their 20's or a late teen,in a stable relationship,and yet there are people like that(who are not victims of rape,do not bear a handicapped life,and who dont have any other life threatening complications)getting abortions just like that?It makes it more of a consumer service than anything and not a medical procedure used with CAUTION.

Thats the problem I have with it,and many others in ireland.If you were a politician you would see leglislating abortion would have DIRE consequences on population growth in ireland,we already have an ageing population in ireland theres no baby boom here,and thats another problem if there is NO POPULATION THERE IS NO MONEY WE ARE A SMALL ISLAND.Sometimes you have to do what makes sense,and not give in to some expectant mother who thinks she should have an abortion bc her boyf said so etc..Not a good enough reason in my eyes..

IvySlayer

I seriously doubt there will be a referendum. The government won't want to tackle this issue. It's a lose-lose issue for parties. Financially the medical system is stretched enough as it is without having to add abortion clinics and staff them.

Pherekydes

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

When you look at Jedward bouncing around the place it almost seems criminal that their mother didn't have the option of aborting them.

In fact, I think she should be allowed (possibly forced) to abort them now.

I thought there were bans for this sort of thing.


/yeah, yeah, backseat modding and all that.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

Obviously i will be fair and give exception to those who were raped,or have an incestuous child,or otherwise have medical conditions or downs syndrome etc..

You specified conception here;

christmas2012 wrote: »

im not going down the route of abortion is wrong mmkay..but i think it should have a limit on it,it should only be available to suicidal rape victims,and those with medical problems or those with pregnancies such as downs or those incompatible with life etc..
.

here...

christmas2012 wrote: »

well..my opinion would be if it is limited to suicidal rape victims and those with medical conditions or downs etc..i would say yes but only limited to that alone..

here...

christmas2012 wrote: »

thats the problem its too widely available and when women get stung by abortion,its not talked about or as widely advertised as lets say getting an abortion,you see adverts for marie stopes clinics everywhere in the UK - they should come with a health warning.




Actually no its not that simple,its a decision a woman/girl has to live out the rest of her life for,it is sometimes more than tinged with regret,some women go on to try having a child in later years(as is the case in ireland now)and it is too late ,or she miscarries cos she is in her thirties..

So its not as straighforward as you make out,some women feel unwanted after their abortion,after an immature image concious guy might have pestered them into it..

Abortion is never simple,and doing it for a number of reasons is wrong,it should only be for emergency situations,but of course once you let that happen it could be unfortuantely a case of a foot in the door,i hate to sound like a cynic but thats how it could be made out to be..





Point out where exactly i said conception details should come into it,i said before that if it was a downs or something completey malformed where it was incompatible with life,or the woman was a suicidal victim of rape,or had other life threateing medical conditions,i would see fit to consider abortion as a last resort..

oh, and right here! Pregnancy from rape is just as viable as one from consensual sex, there will, in 90% of the cases, be no health issues in the foetus. So why should this be any different for a rape victim than a loving couple who don't want kids?

christmas2012

oh, and right here! Pregnancy from rape is just as viable as one from consensual sex, there will, in 90% of the cases, be no health issues in the foetus. So why should this be any different for a rape victim than a loving couple who don't want kids?

If the rape victim is okay with adoption then i would have no problem with it whatsoever..

whendovescry

'Keep your hands off my eggs, Benedict'

poster in London during an anti-pope rally.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

crisis pregnancy could be someone in their 20's or a late teen,in a stable relationship,and yet there are people like that(who are not victims of rape,do not bear a handicapped life,and who dont have any other life threatening complications)getting abortions just like that?It makes it more of a consumer service than anything and not a medical procedure used with CAUTION.

Thats the problem I have with it,and many others in ireland.If you were a politician you would see leglislating abortion would have DIRE consequences on population growth in ireland,we already have an ageing population in ireland theres no baby boom here,and thats another problem if there is NO POPULATION THERE IS NO MONEY WE ARE A SMALL ISLAND.Sometimes you have to do what makes sense,and not give in to some expectant mother who thinks she should have an abortion bc her boyf said so etc..Not a good enough reason in my eyes..

We have the highest birth rates in Europe, we can barely afford to educate the children we have, and stats have already predicted that our school populations are set to increase over the next 20 years.

Yes, there are people who are having abortions because they don't have the money for children. The country is in an appalling state, people in their late teens/early twenties know there is no hope for them to get any jobs without an education; and can't get an education with a kid without some serious support from families, who may not have the inclination or the money, so what? Go on welfare, get a house, stay on the dole. A lot of women have higher aspirations than that.

SocSocPol

Abortion is a civil right, the Supreme Court has already ruled that a woman has the right to abortion in certain circumstances, thus essentially legalising abortion in Ireland (X Case).In subsequent referendum the people backed that ruling.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

If the rape victim is okay with adoption then i would have no problem with it whatsoever..

You're missing the point. Why should she be able to end a viable pregnancy if 'we need the babies' if a woman who conceived consensually cannot?

christmas2012

Its illegal in ireland to get an abortion though,the x case was an exception..

You're missing the point. Why should she be able to end a viable pregnancy if 'we need the babies'?

No i answered your previous questions,scroll up and see,i have said if it is a case of a suicidal rape victim where there is threat to the life of the mother and foetus,then it is possibly best to have the termination..

christmas2012

Go on welfare, get a house, stay on the dole. A lot of women have higher aspirations than that.

How do you know that that woman could have picked herself up,sometimes having a child makes you grow up and do whats important if you have mouths to feed and all that..

Some people give up too easily..

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

Its illegal in ireland to get an abortion though,the x case was an exception..



No i answered your previous questions,scroll up and see,i have said if it is a case of a suicidal rape victim where there is threat to the life of the mother and foetus,then it is possibly best to have the termination..

That is what you said, and I know that, and I am asking you, why should a rape victim have more of a right to an abortion than a baby that was conceived consensually? There is no difference in the foetus, just in your own morality -ie, it should only be available if you have to suffer the most traumatic of circumstances.

PieForPi

christmas2012 wrote: »

im not going down the route of abortion is wrong mmkay..but i think it should have a limit on it,it should only be available to suicidal rape victims,and those with medical problems or those with pregnancies such as downs or those incompatible with life etc..

that i would agree with,what i dont agree with and many people in ireland dont agree with is abortion on demand,whereby anybody can go in and get one done bc lets face it,they are thinking more about their lifestyle than the life they have,and that is pure selfish and careless..say what you like dress it up anyway you like but that is the truth of the matter..

anybody getting an abortion for ANY REASON .. to my mind and the minds and hearts of a lot of others in ireland is wrong..

christmas2012 wrote: »

well..my opinion would be if it is limited to suicidal rape victims and those with medical conditions or downs etc..i would say yes but only limited to that alone..

What the fúck is this?

So if a woman is raped but you know, doesn't fancy killing herself but at the same time doesn't want the child, in your view she should be made have it, because ya know, she could just be abusing its availability?

What an utterly bizarre, if not sick, stance.

You mentioned people using it as a lifestyle choice also...exactly how many women do you know that are raring to ditch the pill, condoms, morning after pill etc. so they can have protection free sex and just go and have it sucked out of them should they fall pregnant?

I'm guessing you probably don't know many women at all, if you believe this is common.

Oh and one more point, if someone WAS to choose abortion as a lifestyle, then it's FAR, FAR better that someone of such a mind is free to not become responsible for the upbringing of a child than to force some poor unfortunate child to spend 18 years being raised by such a person.

You don't talk much sense at all on here, in general, but this "it should be limited to rape victims...but only if they're suicidal" shít really takes the biscuit.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

How do you know that that woman could have picked herself up,sometimes having a child makes you grow up and do whats important if you have mouths to feed and all that..

Some people give up too easily..

Or some people don't want to end up resenting their children, go through the trauma and potential health risks of pregnancy, the judgement of small-town mentality or being disowned by their family or whatever reason that they decide they don't want to have a child. Why do they not get a choice?

SocSocPol

christmas2012 wrote: »

Its illegal in ireland to get an abortion though,the x case was an exception..



No i answered your previous questions,scroll up and see,i have said if it is a case of a suicidal rape victim where there is threat to the life of the mother and foetus,then it is possibly best to have the termination..

No it is most definitley not illegal, I suggest you read the X Case ruling. Even the anti choice brigade admit that the X Case legalized abortion in Ireland.
http://www.thelifeinstitute.net/history/the-x-case/

"As a result of that decision, technically any pregnant woman is entitled to have an abortion (even up to 9 months – there is no time limit to the Supreme Court judgement) if she claims to be suicidal as a result of the pregnancy – an extremely difficult condition to disprove – and furthermore, she may technically have the abortion carried out in Ireland if a doctor agreed to perform it

efb

I think abortions should be mandatory for catholics so we can create a utopian secular state*





















*not really.

Abortions are no concern of mine, so I wont impose my beliefs on others.

PieForPi

christmas2012 wrote: »

How do you know that that woman could have picked herself up,sometimes having a child makes you grow up and do whats important if you have mouths to feed and all that..

Some people give up too easily..

Ah yeah sure force women who get pregnant accidentally to go through the 9 months of pregnancy and then a painful labour at the end of it, then be burdened with a child they possibly never wanted for the next 18 years minimum...sure won't it teach them a bit of maturity, what?

Ah yeah sure they tried contraception but it failed and she got pregnant, but fúck her right to a life, right? Make her have the kid, it'll teach the whore some manners, right man? Maybe she'll learn to close her legs then, huh? Bleedin' slappers.

Sure their da's should have bate the whorish tendencies out of them with their premarital sex and the like long ago, right buddy?

hattoncracker

PieForPi wrote: »

Ah yeah sure force women who get pregnant accidentally to go through the 9 months of pregnancy and then a painful labour at the end of it, then be burdened with a child they possibly never wanted for the next 18 years minimum...sure won't it teach them a bit of maturity, what?

Ah yeah sure they tried contraception but it failed and she got pregnant, but fúck her right to a life, right? Make her have the kid, it'll teach the whore some manners, right man? Maybe she'll learn to close her legs then, huh? Bleedin' slappers.

Sure their da's should have bate the whorish tendencies out of them with their premarital sex and the like long ago, right buddy?

Pretty sure Christmas is a woman, just so you know guys.

PieForPi

christmas2012 wrote: »

The problem with abortion for all is that you will find many women/girls going for them for all kinds of reasons,which doesnt make it right,and they havent even yet in their own minds considered the aftermath of such a decision they have to live the rest of their lives to deal with,it is a traumatic experience..

It's their bodies and the rest of their lives so who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to tell them what they can and can't do with it?

If they want to do it, they should be allowed to do it as they will be the ones living with any consequences, not YOU.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

that i would agree with,what i dont agree with and many people in ireland dont agree with is abortion on demand,whereby anybody can go in and get one done bc lets face it,they are thinking more about their lifestyle than the life they have,and that is pure selfish and careless..say what you like dress it up anyway you like but that is the truth of the matter..
..

Their life, not yours.
And I wouldn't worry too much, if your friends know you and your opinions well enough I doubt they would confide in you about this, so you wouldn't have to worry about knowing something that doesn't directly affect you.

ON THE OP: I'm not sure whether an abortion referendum would win this time, but I know the gap would be a damn sight narrower. If young people get involved in the referendum; and actually go out and vote it has a higher rate of passing, but I think they'd have to be prepared for it because this topic really brings out the crazies, if I were Enda Kenny I would arrange to have it during my last month in office.

hairyprincess

Abortion is a fiercely difficult issue that divides people.

I'm in the six of one, half a dozen of the other camp. I believe abortion for the sake of an abortion should be heavily opposed. Personal responsibility takes precedent over a life. Abortion for the sake of a baby who doctors claim will not live or will be seriously deformed/damaged should be opposed. Doctors get things wrong, as a mother I could never take that risk.

However in the case of rape, I would never want to see anyone be forced to carry and give birth to a baby which was conceived so traumatically.

hattoncracker

hairyprincess wrote: »

Abortion is a fiercely difficult issue that divides people.

I'm in the six of one, half a dozen of the other camp. I believe abortion for the sake of an abortion should be heavily opposed. Personal responsibility takes precedent over a life. Abortion for the sake of a baby who doctors claim will not live or will be seriously deformed/damaged should be opposed. Doctors get things wrong, as a mother I could never take that risk.

However in the case of rape, I would never want to see anyone be forced to carry and give birth to a baby which was conceived so traumatically.

I don't know if I could agree with you on the bolded part, I think having to carry a baby to term who had little to no chance of life, being asked what you're going to call it, whether it's a boy or girl, feeling it grow and move around inside you, going through labour knowing that you'll probably only hold your baby a handful of times before you have to bury it is just awful.

You may not make the choice to abort but I do think that choice should definitely be given to other women.

PieForPi

hairyprincess wrote: »

Abortion is a fiercely difficult issue that divides people.

I'm in the six of one, half a dozen of the other camp. I believe abortion for the sake of an abortion should be heavily opposed. Personal responsibility takes precedent over a life. Abortion for the sake of a baby who doctors claim will not live or will be seriously deformed/damaged should be opposed. Doctors get things wrong, as a mother I could never take that risk.

However in the case of rape, I would never want to see anyone be forced to carry and give birth to a baby which was conceived so traumatically.

So a woman who gets pregnant by accident from enjoying something all adults do should be forced to go through with the pregnancy and the 18 years (legal minimum) of rearing the child simply because she wasn't forced to have sex?

So because she wasn't forced into one thing, you want to force her into the other? When there is a safe alternative available?

Bizarre way of looking at it as far as I'm concerned. If you're of the belief that a life is being destroyed, which I personally am not, then you should be as appalled by a rape victim being able to abort as someone whose contraception failed and is availing of an abortion.

A lot of people, including women, are giving very little credit to other women. There's an underlying implication from a lot of posters here that abortion being available will make a load of women use it as their only contraception. I don't know any women that stupid, maybe you do, who knows, but if they're dumb enough to style their life in such a way then they most certainly should not be responsible for the upbringing of a child, hence furthering the argument for wide access to the service.

hairyprincess

PieForPi wrote: »

hairyprincess wrote: »

Abortion is a fiercely difficult issue that divides people.

I'm in the six of one, half a dozen of the other camp. I believe abortion for the sake of an abortion should be heavily opposed. Personal responsibility takes precedent over a life. Abortion for the sake of a baby who doctors claim will not live or will be seriously deformed/damaged should be opposed. Doctors get things wrong, as a mother I could never take that risk.

However in the case of rape, I would never want to see anyone be forced to carry and give birth to a baby which was conceived so traumatically.

So a woman who gets pregnant by accident from enjoying something all adults do should be forced to go through with the pregnancy and the 18 years (legal minimum) of rearing the child simply because she wasn't forced to have sex?

So because she wasn't forced into one thing, you want to force her into the other? When there is a safe alternative available?

Bizarre way of looking at it as far as I'm concerned. If you're of the belief that a life is being destroyed, which I personally am not, then you should be as appalled by a rape victim being able to abort as someone whose contraception failed and is availing of an abortion.

A lot of people, including women, are giving very little credit to other women. There's an underlying implication from a lot of posters here that abortion being available will make a load of women use it as their only contraception. I don't know any women that stupid, maybe you do, who knows, but if they're dumb enough to style their life in such a way then they most certainly should not be responsible for the upbringing of a child, hence furthering the argument for wide access to the service.

I'm not forcing her into something else. She chose to have sex. She's an adult, having sex with another adult. If they aren't mature enough to deal with the consequences of their actions then they shouldn't be having sex.

Sar_Bear

So basically people who aren't ready or never want to have kids shouldn't be having sex? :rolleyes: