Irish Traction Group

DannyGrey

What plans does the ITG have for its locos that are stored at the West Clare Railway.

What plans are there for 226 at Carrick on Suir


I did hear reports that some might move up north to the railway at Downpatrick


One other thing what was the reason to move the locos to Moyasta as its a narrow gauge railway

demanufactured

DannyGrey wrote: »

What plans does the ITG have for its locos that are stored at the West Clare Railway.

What plans are there for 226 at Carrick on Suir


I did hear reports that some might move up north to the railway at Downpatrick


One other thing what was the reason to move the locos to Moyasta as its a narrow gauge railway

Yeah...there's a 121 sitting on a length of track in moyasta isn't there??
It should be in in downpatrick with it's brother 146.

Losty Dublin

The simple plan for the ITG (As I understand it) is as follows.

• Some locomotives which are in working condition will be loaned out to competent railways subject to need.
• Some Irish Gauge track will be laid in Moyasta with view to some engines being stored and eventually restored to working condition where possible.
• Others are stored and worked on in Carrig on Suir with a view to re-entering traffic in the future.

Downpatrick remains the sole place for them to ply their trade for now; as it is now they are pushed for space so it's unlikely that they will rehome any more engines soon. While the ITG stock could be returned to the mainline in theory, they would need to be mainline passed by the RSC and for competent and trained in drivers to be found by Irish Rail to operate them. Drivers have not been trained for an A class since 1993 and 1983 for a C class so therein lies a massive obstacle to their operation; bar a brief stint in the late 80's NIR drivers didn't drive them in service either.

Also, the ITG are reliant on RPSI for carriage stock so any rail tours would require their assistance and co-operation. Oh, and loads of cash and spare hands to get the engines restored as we;;

All in all, tis a big ask for all concerned.

dowlingm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Others are stored and worked on in Carrig on Suir with a view to re-entering traffic in the future.

Isn't the connection between the shed and the running line being severed? Perhaps I misunderstood the rumour going about. I suppose if it is they could lift the loco onto the tracks with a crane but by then perhaps the running line will be severed too if not lifted.

gobnaitolunacy

DannyGrey wrote: »

One other thing what was the reason to move the locos to Moyasta as its a narrow gauge railway

IE told em to gather up their stuff in Inchicore and don't come back. There will NEVER again be a main line ITG tour using ITG locos. IE will never allow it. Carrick is living on borrowed time, surprised they haven't been told to shift yet, possibly because it's an out of the way backwater.

gobnaitolunacy

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

IE told em to gather up their stuff in Inchicore and don't come back. There will NEVER again be a main line ITG tour using ITG locos. IE will never allow it. Carrick is living on borrowed time, surprised they haven't been told to shift yet, possibly because it's an out of the way backwater.

I'm aware of the shaky relationship between the ITG and IE but don't know the ins and outs of it. What's it all about? Or can that even be discussed on here?

gobnaitolunacy

Karsini wrote: »

I'm aware of the shaky relationship between the ITG and IE but don't know the ins and outs of it. What's it all about? Or can that even be discussed on here?

Don't even ask, they're persona non grata in IE's eyes. I wish they'd just call it a day and wind up and give all the diesels to organisations with even a whiff of credibility.

Judgement Day

If wasn't for the Irish Traction Group and before them the Irish Narrow Gauge Trust, Westrail and the the Great Southern Railway Preservation Society they wouldn't be a preserved diesel in Ireland - the RPSI/Downpatrick & Co.Down Railway came very late to the party! That the ITG 'apparently' have a bad relationship with CIE comes as no surprise as they (the ITG) do not tolerate fools lightly.

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

If wasn't for the Irish Traction Group and before them the Irish Narrow Gauge Trust, Westrail and the the Great Southern Railway Preservation Society they wouldn't be a preserved diesel in Ireland - the RPSI/Downpatrick & Co.Down Railway came very late to the party! .

Not to take anything away from the ITG but Downpatrick actually pre dates the ITG by a couple of years, JD. Their first trains ran in 1987 and were hauled with their own E class as can be seen here.

Judgement Day

Old age is a terrible thing - I had completely forgotten about E421 & E432 at Downpatrick...:o However, in general it was the GSRPS/WISRA (later Westrail) that got the ball rolling with the ITG leading the charge from 1989. The RPSI had an ex.CSE Ruston and a Shell shunter for purely practical reasons rather than in the interests of diesel preservation.

Incidentally, one of my biggest criticisms of the D&CDR operation is their failure to give credit where it's due - if you look here http://www.downrail.co.uk/locos.htm#Eclass you will find precious little reference to previous ownership of vehicles which is at best sloppy and, at worst, an attempt to rewrite history.

Sligo Quay

Karsini wrote: »

I'm aware of the shaky relationship between the ITG and IE but don't know the ins and outs of it. What's it all about? Or can that even be discussed on here?

Sadly I don't think it can be discussed here, but the dogs in the street know, rising this issue just like a tresspassing issue in another thread would be quite explosive, so in this case, let sleeping dogs, sleep.
Am I wrong, but wasnt the RPSI formed in the 1960s with the ITG formed in the late 80s. So much for ''late comers to the game''
I think the ITG have gotten a very raw deal, there would be no preserved mailine diesel locomotives only for them, and they don't get enough credit for that.

Cyberbeagle

Judgement Day wrote: »

Incidentally, one of my biggest criticisms of the D&CDR operation is their failure to give credit where it's due - if you look here http://www.downrail.co.uk/locos.htm#Eclass you will find precious little reference to previous ownership of vehicles which is at best sloppy and, at worst, an attempt to rewrite history.

I can't let that allegation go unchallenged.

No. 90: Irish Rail's ownership is acknowledged (the piece was written by a non-volunteer member, and actually needs to be updated)

O&Ks: Their previous ownership is acknowledged, though not named as he was a private individual. Their place of storage is also acknowledged.

B146: The ITG's ownership is acknowledged, with a link to the relevant ITG page on the loco given.

A39: As above

E421 & E432: Purchased direct from CIE by the then D&AR

G613: Westrail's previous ownership acknowledged, and previous private owner (now since deceased) also acknowledged

G617 & 611: ITG ownership acknowledged and link provided to ITG site.

SLNCR B: Article contributed, but fleet history acknowledged. Now perhaps this is what you are referring to because the entire hoo-haa with GSRPS and who owned what according to who you talk to in IE or outside IE is a very tricky situation and one felt prudent to best avoid for accuracy reasons and to keep ourselves right, but if you can come up with a line that can accurately acknowledge the GSRPS period I'll happily add it in.

But your claim that "precious little reference to previous ownership of vehicles which is at best sloppy and, at worst, an attempt to rewrite history" is so outlandish to be incredulous and quite hilarious. The purpose of the page is to give an outline of what rolling stock there is. These pages aren't technical manuals or comprehensive guidebooks, they're not even the most important part of the site, in August there were only around 200 hits to this page compared with 2000 for the site overall. I had even thought about deleting them, but if they're there they're doing no harm and someone's bound to find the information useful.

Judgement Day

Suffice to say I don't agree with almost everything that you've posted above but I'm off for a sambo and will reply in full shortly.

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

Old age is a terrible thing - I had completely forgotten about E421 & E432 at Downpatrick...:o However, in general it was the GSRPS/WISRA (later Westrail) that got the ball rolling with the ITG leading the charge from 1989. The RPSI had an ex.CSE Ruston and a Shell shunter for purely practical reasons rather than in the interests of diesel preservation.

Incidentally, one of my biggest criticisms of the D&CDR operation is their failure to give credit where it's due - if you look here http://www.downrail.co.uk/locos.htm#Eclass you will find precious little reference to previous ownership of vehicles which is at best sloppy and, at worst, an attempt to rewrite history.

Why not pop up sometime and let them know of same? A warm welcome awaits any visitor up there.

Cyberbeagle

Judgement Day wrote: »

Suffice to say I don't agree with almost everything that you've posted above but I'm off for a sambo and will reply in full shortly.

Fair enough I suppose, but why not just simply email me (privately or via the downtrains@yahoo.co.uk address) with comments if there is a problem with accuracy rather than broadcasting it on a forum alleging some sort of conspiracy? If the points are valid, and I can check them out and if they stand up, or there's something I or we didn't know about which is of interest, I'll include them. But every effort is made to make the pages on the site accurate, while at the same time brief enough for the casual visitor.

gobnaitolunacy

Judgement Day wrote: »

If wasn't for the Irish Traction Group and before them the Irish Narrow Gauge Trust, Westrail and the the Great Southern Railway Preservation Society they wouldn't be a preserved diesel in Ireland - the RPSI/Downpatrick & Co.Down Railway came very late to the party! That the ITG 'apparently' have a bad relationship with CIE comes as no surprise as they (the ITG) do not tolerate fools lightly.

And Hitler gave Germany the Autobahn too...fair play.

I suppose a cloud can always have a silver lining.

Judgement Day

Cyberbeagle wrote: »

I can't let that allegation go unchallenged.

No. 90: Irish Rail's ownership is acknowledged (the piece was written by a non-volunteer member, and actually needs to be updated)

No mention of 90’s time at Tuam where it was first restored by Westrail nor of its earlier time at Fermoy and Mallow.

O&Ks: Their previous ownership is acknowledged, though not named as he was a private individual. Their place of storage is also acknowledged.

B146: The ITG's ownership is acknowledged, with a link to the relevant ITG page on the loco given.

A39: As above

E421 & E432: Purchased direct from CIE by the then D&AR

G613: Westrail's previous ownership acknowledged, and previous private owner (now since deceased) also acknowledged

G617 & 611: ITG ownership acknowledged and link provided to ITG site.

The previous ownership and rescue of G617 by the GSRPS is overlooked as the previous ownership and rescue history of G611 by the Irish Narrow Gauge Trust.

SLNCR B: Article contributed, but fleet history acknowledged. Now perhaps this is what you are referring to because the entire hoo-haa with GSRPS and who owned what according to who you talk to in IE or outside IE is a very tricky situation and one felt prudent to best avoid for accuracy reasons and to keep ourselves right, but if you can come up with a line that can accurately acknowledge the GSRPS period I'll happily add it in.

Railcar B was preserved by the GSRPS and removed to Mallow from Limerick Junction after lying at the latter location for years. It was then removed to Inchicore following the collapse of the GSRPS project and during my absence from Ireland!

But your claim that "precious little reference to previous ownership of vehicles which is at best sloppy and, at worst, an attempt to rewrite history" is so outlandish to be incredulous and quite hilarious. The purpose of the page is to give an outline of what rolling stock there is. These pages aren't technical manuals or comprehensive guidebooks, they're not even the most important part of the site, in August there were only around 200 hits to this page compared with 2000 for the site overall. I had even thought about deleting them, but if they're there they're doing no harm and someone's bound to find the information useful.

The ITG Wickham railcar was my personal property and was removed from Portlaoise PW yard to Dromod. Ultimately it was sold on to Andy Marshall in 1997/8 and he passed it on to the ITG.

MGWR six-wheel carriages (CIE 479a & 478a) – zero reference to them being saved by the GSRPS from Thurles beet sidings.

In passing, do you know the whereabouts of a six-wheel underframe removed by Downpatrick volunteers from Carlow beet sidings during the 1980s as it was my personal property? :rolleyes:

If you want to see how vehicle histories should be recorded you should get yourself a copy of the "Cavan & Leitrim Railway" guidebook - a model guide if I say so myself.

Judgement Day

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Why not pop up sometime and let them know of same? A warm welcome awaits any visitor up there.

More likely pitchforks and a bonfire as far as I'm concerned.

Cyberbeagle

Judgement Day wrote: »

The ITG Wickham railcar was my personal property and was removed from Portlaoise PW yard to Dromod. Ultimately it was sold on to Andy Marshall in 1997/8 and he passed it on to the ITG.

MGWR six-wheel carriages (CIE 479a & 478a) – zero reference to them being saved by the GSRPS from Thurles beet sidings.

In passing, do you know the whereabouts of a six-wheel underframe removed by Downpatrick volunteers from Carlow beet sidings during the 1980s as it was my personal property? :rolleyes:

If you want to see how vehicle histories should be recorded you should get yourself a copy of the "Cavan & Leitrim Railway" guidebook - a model guide if I say so myself.

Hardly damning evidence of a huge conspiracy of rewriting history? I will again point out that most of the text on that site is *not* a day-by-day account of how each locomotive was rescued, or a comprehensive history of the vehicles - especially after leaving railway company service - unless such as history has been provided for inclusion as per No. 90 and SLNCR B by contributors.

Let's deal with the comments above first: In regards the carriages, you will notice as stated on the site that the carriages section only gives a link to the Heritage Railway Association's Carriage Survey reports, as administered by the Vintage Carriages Trust - NOT the DCDR, I can't amend these for instance. But at some stage in the future I might redesign this whole section and provide histories of each carriage, if I have time, in which case the GSRPS story can be included.

Things like six-wheeled underframes are not listed on the site at all, nor will they be as Joe Public doesn't care. Where they are listed it's in the VCT reports, though two underframes are unidentified, and only one - ex MGWR No. 13M - is identified under the GNR six-wheeler report.

In regards the Wickhams, again I will stress the content only reflects current status. If someone can write an article on the history of the Wickhams I will certainly upload it.

Again, these points are worth reiterating for all the queries raised. The site is reflective of current ownership and status of the locomotives, and where the DCDR does not own the vehicles provide links to the owner's site, which in regards the two G-Class have in black and white GSRPS and Irish Narrow Gauge listed there as previous owners. I usually link directly to the owners' site to avoid duplication, but I can copy and paste that info across if the ITG are happy for me to do so.

Okay, point taken about No. 90, I should've subbed the article better, but her involvement with Westrail is covered elsewhere on the site.

And again, I will say that this is a low-priority page, with only 25% of web visitors reading it - a hangover from when I first created the website in 1998. I think this was last updated in 2010 with the arrival of the B, and rarely updated - unlike the news page or visitors' information pages which are constantly updated. There hasn't been the demand from web-visitors for in-depth histories.

But for technical pages like this I am reliant on people providing me with information that I can upload, and it can be pretty sketchy...

So again I would ask why couldn't you have emailed me with comments as to how the page could, in your view, have been improved rather than alleging to the world some sort of grand conspiracy?

Judgement Day wrote: »

More likely pitchforks and a bonfire as far as I'm concerned.

We'll spare the pitchforks if you can bring up some more UTA crockery for the museum

SeanW

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

And Hitler gave Germany the Autobahn too...fair play.

I suppose a cloud can always have a silver lining.

Cyberbeagle

SeanW wrote: »

That's one unfortunately marked cat!!! But it's brilliant!! Nazi Puss in Jackboots

DannyGrey

Thanks for all the replys lads , i know the thread has went a bit of track so to speak but can anyone say if any of the locos at Moyasta will move to a new location in the future or will they stay with the West Clare Railway

CaptainFreedom

Karsini wrote: »

I'm aware of the shaky relationship between the ITG and IE but don't know the ins and outs of it. What's it all about? Or can that even be discussed on here?

A simple term to describe it all is 'now who is doing who the favour here'

I have my original membership pack with the constitution, and in amongst all the self righteous propaganda and bull, it states if the group is to be broken up, all assets pass to other preservation groups, so DCDR and the RPSI. They had the chance to formally sign over A39 to the RPSI several years ago but baulked at the idea as they would no longer own it. While it is now shuffling up and down at the DCDR, it could have been blasting around the network at speed. No disrespect to the DCDR is intended or implied, its only a small line but everyone there does a fantastic job, if I lived closer I would volunteer

corktina

My impression is that the ITG is largely formed of UK based persons... am I right?

Cookie_Monster

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Don't even ask, they're persona non grata in IE's eyes.

Sligo Quay wrote: »

Sadly I don't think it can be discussed here, but the dogs in the street know, rising this issue just like a tresspassing issue in another thread would be quite explosive, so in this case, let sleeping dogs, sleep.

:rolleyes:
Why is everything involving any history of Irish rail or stock always the same sordid, hidden story. I never bothered re-newing my ITG membership exactly because of the likes of the above, it's impossible to find out the truth about so much history. IRRS is no different

CaptainFreedom

corktina wrote: »

My impression is that the ITG is largely formed of UK based persons... am I right?

Yes, mostly, although a few more Irish inhabit the committee these days. Too little, too late

Judgement Day

CaptainFreedom wrote: »

Yes, mostly, although a few more Irish inhabit the committee these days. Too little, too late

I'm afraid I can't agree with you there! The ITG was put together by English enthusiasts because nobody here would get the finger out and it was largely funded by railtours organised by the group - filled with English enthusiasts.

The wheels really came off the wagon when diesel railtours were suspended by IE for a few years and funding dried up. There are a number of hard-working Irish volunteers at Carrick-on-Suir but as far as I know the power still rests with Pete Jones etc. in the UK and why not since they put in the hard graft. Ever since the ITG was set-up there has been an element here that have put it about that all the ITG ever wanted was to ship all the locos to the UK. :rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

Judgement Day wrote: »

Ever since the ITG was set-up there has been an element here that have put it about that all the ITG ever wanted was to ship all the locos to the UK. :rolleyes:

how very Irish. The brits are involved, they must be up to something.

Cyberbeagle

CaptainFreedom wrote: »

No disrespect to the DCDR is intended or implied, its only a small line but everyone there does a fantastic job, if I lived closer I would volunteer

Fingers crossed we won't be that small for long... if we can get the funding the Ballydugan and Racecourse extensions would double the line!

And B146 seems, for some reason I just can't put my finger on it, to be quite a popular engine with our visitors - more so than the other diesels...

Cyberbeagle

Cyberbeagle wrote: »

And B146 seems, for some reason I just can't put my finger on it, to be quite a popular engine with our visitors - more so than the other diesels...

Could it be the livery? People instantly know where it came from?

Cyberbeagle

Karsini wrote: »

Could it be the livery? People instantly know where it came from?

Unlikely... given most of our punters are from the local area. Irish Rail trains never made it that far into Northern Ireland!!