'Enough is Enough' - Lance Armstrong

paddy no 11

No

shaka wrote: »

Don't think so , whether or not barca payed for it he had a medical condition that would of been treated at some stage . Think maybe it's a case of earlier the better for all parties concerned.. It's fairly well documented, not some dirty little secret like pharmstrong ..

Ps I'll go with vertically challenged

How many other short argentinian kids do barca treat, i'm guessing none. They treated this kid to make a great footballer, its performance enhancing engineering.


Cosmetic surgery is just that, its not medical treatment.

(I'm open to correction here, dont know the details of the case)

hardCopy

No

I don't see the Messi thing as being any different to straight up doping. Most football fans would seem to disagree.

How is a hormonally deficient footballer any more deserving of medical help than a Cardio-Vascularly Challenged mid-pack cyclist?

I'm 5'9" and played as a back-row forward in rugby. Sadly the IRFU never noticed my nascent talent and missed the opportunity to boost my hormones and turn me into a beast of a Number 6, I think 6'5" would be an ideal height for me.

noddy69

No

Leroy42 wrote: »

Without wanting to go OT,(but still) if the storys about Messi are true about growth hormones then surely that is an even greater use of PED's than even LA partook in. Messi was aparantly born and grew so that he wouldn't cut it in the world of professional football. Barcelona decided that his inherent skill was such that he would be re-engineered. That is dangerously close to DNA re-engineering for me.

How is that not as bad as what LA did? Is it because its football that so little is said about it. It has been suggested in many quarters that the next wave of PED's will be DNA changing based.

Would the Messi example not be along the lines of taking guys with low VO2 max and giving them drugs to bring them up to superstar levels?

Em LA didnt have a medical condition that was credible which the treatment for was growth hormone. Huge difference.Monumental difference ....in fact not even on the same planet and to suggest it is worse than Armstrongs doping, well ,from another planet comes to mind

shaka

No

Leroy42 wrote: »

@Brandon - I would not qustion USPS paying for cancer treatment, the man was dying and it is right that an employer looks after someones health. Messi is a different case. Messi's life, as far as I understand and am fully open to correction, was not under threat. It was only a medical condition in so far as medicine could help change it. You could argue that EPO can change my inherent abilities as well. My point being that it is a fine line between doping and medical enhancements.

@ Shaka, I am pretty sure there are plenty of vertically challenged people going around. But what next. A guy who is good at basketball but is short is given growth hormones to get to 6'6". Why stop there, use better drugs to get to 7' or 8'.

It is well documented because it is accepted. That doesn't make it right.

What effect does blood doping and EPO have on an elite athelete. It takes his natural abilities and allows them to push far beyond what 'Normal' elites can achieve. Is Messi's treatment any different?

I don't think it's the same , taking steroids to be a 6 6 basketball player is different from a 11 year old kid with a projected height of 4ft 7 getting treatment he deserves. River plate couldn't afford the treatment.

It's not a case of him being born to be a short ass , he had a growth hormone deficiency. I think that's different to someone like pharmstrong having a talent deficiency

paddy no 11

No

noddy69 wrote: »

Em LA didnt have a medical condition that was credible which the treatment for was growth hormone. Huge difference.Monumental difference ....in fact not even on the same planet and to suggest it is worse than Armstrongs doping, well ,from another planet comes to mind

Is being short a medical condition?

shaka

No

paddy no 11 wrote: »

Is being short a medical condition?

When it's related to a hormone deficiency I would say yes ?

shaka

No

Mods gonna kick us into football forum:)

brandon_flowers

No

hardCopy wrote: »

I don't see the Messi thing as being any different to straight up doping. Most football fans would seem to disagree.

How is a hormonally deficient footballer any more deserving of medical help than a Cardio-Vascularly Challenged mid-pack cyclist?

I'm 5'9" and played as a back-row forward in rugby. Sadly the IRFU never noticed my nascent talent and missed the opportunity to boost my hormones and turn me into a beast of a Number 6, I think 6'5" would be an ideal height for me.

Because the IRFU knew you weren't medically diagnosed with a form of dwarfism. People should do some reading on Messi's case before judging it.

And to reply previously it doesn't matter if his life was under threat or not. He is entitled to medical treatment for a diagnosed illness.

There are plenty of clear cut doping cases in football that have been brushed under the carpet. Messi's case is simply not a case of doping in any way, shape or form.

Also anyone with asthma can take certain banned substances without repercussions because it is a medical treatment.

Leroy42

noddy69 wrote: »

Em LA didnt have a medical condition that was credible which the treatment for was growth hormone. Huge difference.Monumental difference ....in fact not even on the same planet and to suggest it is worse than Armstrongs doping, well ,from another planet comes to mind

But I'm guessing that many people who dope, and this is stated in regards to hemocrit, would say that all they are doing is levelling the playing field.
Messi so called medical condition was that he was too small, my point is where do you draw the line. Why should I suffer from having a lower VO2 max then you. what if you're democrat is naturally 45 while mine is 40. I can argue that medical treatment can fix that.
Messi would still be alive and well without the growth hormone treatment, but obviously not a professional footballer.
being too small to be a professional foot ball player is not a medical condition.

brandon_flowers

No

Leroy42 wrote: »

But I'm guessing that many people who dope, and this is stated in regards to hemocrit, would say that all they are doing is levelling the playing field.
Messi so called medical condition was that he was too small, my point is where do you draw the line. Why should I suffer from having a lower VO2 max then you. what if you're democrat is naturally 45 while mine is 40. I can argue that medical treatment can fix that.
Messi would still be alive and well without the growth hormone treatment, but obviously not a professional footballer.
being too small to be a professional foot ball player is not a medical condition.

Thanks for that Dr. Hibbert.

I now give up.

Capt'n Midnight

No

paddy no 11 wrote: »

Is being short a medical condition?

Something about being more than two standard deviations below average height.

Hormone treatment when young.

Painful , dodgy, dangerous, ongoing leg surgery in India.

Or move to Sardinia.

Leroy42

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Thanks for that Dr. Hibbert.

I now give up.

That's a very funny reposte, huzzar to you.

You didn't answer my point though. Where do you draw the line? Who decides? as we have seen in cycling it's pretty esay to get Doctors to say anything.

I'm not saying it's the same as Armstrong but it doesn't sit right with me either.

petethedrummer

No

paddy no 11 wrote: »

Is being short a medical condition?

I know an Irish fella that was given growth hormone as a young fella, so it must be. His parents and doctors were worried he was going to be tiny. Not sure what age this was at though.

It wasn't sports related or anything.

thomond2006

No

There will be a debate streamed live from 7pm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Opucv2n51U

MPFG

No

Kimmage sues UCI

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kimmage-counter-sues-verbruggen-mcquaid

T-K-O

MPFG wrote: »

I don't think I did

My point was if you are a radio station and run anti doping programmes would you have Maradonna as your mascot...and how I would like to see soem balanced programming re drugs in other sports
I don't think that point excuses Armstrong or compares the two....but the reality of the issues of drugs is they are in other sports but no one seems to investigate or report .......

Drugs are in a lot of sports, of that I have no doubt. Unfortunately for cycling drugs have a huge benefit to the cheat. Mardonna taking cocaine is nothing like a boxing or a cyclist taking PED's

Cienciano

No

MPFG wrote: »

Kimmage sues UCI

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kimmage-counter-sues-verbruggen-mcquaid

I love paul kimmage!

MPFG

No

Cienciano wrote: »

I love paul kimmage!

One thing Kimmage definitely is - is brave

Oh and daring ....two things

It seems old cycling team mates from way back when (Kimmage & McQuiad) are locked into this story to the bitter end....has all the hallmarks of a russian play or a greek drama !

Undercover Elephant

paddy no 11 wrote: »

Is being short a medical condition?

Dwarfism is a medical condition. It's the reason why HGH treatments were created. In the 1960s and 70s it was extracted from the pituitary glands of corpses. Nowadays it's synthetic.

While it might not sound serious apart from psychological effects, dwarfism is associated with a whole load of other stuff, especially heart conditions. IIRC it reduces your life expectancy by more than 30 years.

nak

hardCopy wrote: »

I don't see the Messi thing as being any different to straight up doping. Most football fans would seem to disagree.
.

Graham Hunter was interviewed and stated that Xavi was being given HGH by Barca to treat leg pain. How is this ok?

petethedrummer

No

At LAST!!! Newstalk are doing a bit on doping in soccer.

Raam

No

petethedrummer wrote: »

At LAST!!! Newstalk are doing a bit on doping in soccer.

They did a piece last week. Some fella who used to play for Milwall was on saying that he was tested maybe once in eight years, or something like that.

kumate_champ07

Raam wrote: »

They did a piece last week. Some fella who used to play for Milwall was on saying that he was tested maybe once in eight years, or something like that.

ye heard that too, but was that back in the 90's? think theres more testing these days in football.

Raam

No

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

ye heard that too, but was that back in the 90's? think theres more testing these days in football.

It's a wonder that hardly any one gets caught. Must be a very clean sport. Probably not much money in it. :pac:

tom oneal

It feels great to finally have the same amount of Tour De France medals as Lance, but twice as many testicles.
Life's good.
And remember kids :
"It never gets easier, you just go faster."
Greg LeMond - true champion

corny

No

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wada-will-not-appeal-usada-decision-on-lance-armstrong

Importantly, WADA said it had an external, independent review of the application of the statute of limitations, and said, "that opinion is clear and confirms that the interpretation given by USADA is proper and supported by case law".

crumliniano

No

Just watched the new Southpark episode about the Lance affair on Comedy Central. As usual it's about the most intelligent commentary on current affairs on TV. Great stuff.

wonderfullife

No

Interesting to read the statement from SCA (the insurers Lance sued). They have demanded $12 million returned (i think they've given him until monday) - that's comprised of legal fees, the bonuses they paid and interest on the whole lot etc. But they went slightly further indicating they would be seeking other "legal penalties" - inferring they would be going after him for lying under oath in his 2005 deposition.

I've no doubt whatsoever the $12 million will be paid sharpish and he'll probably weasel his way out of the perjury charge. But this case is crucial, this is the first Domino, if when he pays up, the floodgates will open. You'll have every lawyer globally from every magazine/paper/organisation he sued filing suits within weeks. Any sponsors with nothing to hide will be in pursuit of their money back. I'd also be very interested for someone to take a good hard look at the books in the LiveStrong foundation and would not be surprised if he has profited there too.

In the unlikely event he refuses to pay up, then that means a court date and trying to mount a defence. Seeing as the defence would be the exact same defence he ducked out of with USADA then i just fail to see it even being a 1% possibility.

Rather annoyed with his Twitter makeover too. "Fighting Cancer"? Does he take cancer out into the alleyway and throw slaps?! He promotes cancer awareness which i've consistently felt is a poor cousin to actual research.

Here's the kicker though - he's amassed $125 million. If he loses even worst case $100 million he'll have $25 million to show for his cheating and bullying. And no doubt future career options like books, film projects etc. Cheats do prosper apparently.

wonderfullife

No

crumliniano wrote: »

Just watched the new Southpark episode about the Lance affair on Comedy Central. As usual it's about the most intelligent commentary on current affairs on TV. Great stuff.

brilliant Jesus: "and even if i did use performance enhancing drugs, so did all the other Prophets"

M three

shaka wrote: »

I don't think it's the same , taking steroids to be a 6 6 basketball player is different from a 11 year old kid with a projected height of 4ft 7 getting treatment he deserves. River plate couldn't afford the treatment.

It's not a case of him being born to be a short ass , he had a growth hormone deficiency. I think that's different to someone like pharmstrong having a talent deficiency

The grey area with Messi though is if he used the HGH after the point where he needed it to grow to an average height.
Some say he did and that it has given him an unfair advantage.

Its still nowhere near the LA scale though.