Ex-Christian Support group

Social Caios

I am trying to start up a support group for those that have experienced the Christian walk of life and for whatever reason have had enough and are struggling with trying to cope without the church and the loss of that social group.

just as AA or NA or a divorce support group, this is for people who have left the church, and for those who have experienced the damage the church can do and need help getting on in life.

The meetings will take place in the college road area of cork city.

If anybody is interested, please leave me a message.
Mark.

condra

Best of luck, though it sounds very nichey.

LadyMayBelle

Any more info on this?

Tim Robbins

Social Caios wrote: »

I am trying to start up a support group for those that have experienced the Christian walk of life and for whatever reason have had enough and are struggling with trying to cope without the church and the loss of that social group.

just as AA or NA or a divorce support group, this is for people who have left the church, and for those who have experienced the damage the church can do and need help getting on in life.

The meetings will take place in the college road area of cork city.

If anybody is interested, please leave me a message.
Mark.

Great idea. Hope it goes well. I would support any drive to get this organisation charity status.

philologos

If you had truly experienced the "Christian walk of life" you wouldn't be setting up a support group.

Sarky

So just how many true christians are there, philly? Because every damn time you defend it, it's because they weren't truly christian.

28064212

philologos wrote: »

If you had truly experienced the "Christian walk of life" you wouldn't be setting up a support group.

If you truly understood Christianity, you wouldn't be a Christian

See, it works both ways

Sarky

in b4 [choose as applicable]:

"It makes sense to me" (Never explain why)
"The Bible is completely accurate" (Avoid how the original story changed before it was written down for the first time)
"Come back when you're ready for a debate" (Ignoring debate thus far because it doesn't go my way)
"The Bible was not written as fiction" (Except for the fictional bits)
"The Bible is not meant to be taken literally" (Except the bits that are)

philologos

Except that the contents in brackets don't have any sound basis, textually or otherwise?

It's not much fun having a tit for tat discussion especially if you're not particularly interested in what others have to say to you.

robindch

philologos wrote: »

If you had truly experienced the "Christian walk of life" you wouldn't be setting up a support group.

Having seen and occasionally had to share a house with people who, like excellent yourself, believe themselves in possession of absolute truth, who call themselves true christians and who therefore take innumerable opportunities to propagate their supremely important religion, I respectfully submit that not only are true christians and former true christians in need of as much emotional support as anybody can reasonably provide, but everybody within a thousand yards too.

Sarky

So then you'll finally respond to nozzferrahhtoo phil?

marienbad

philologos wrote: »

If you had truly experienced the "Christian walk of life" you wouldn't be setting up a support group.

Go tell it to Yossarian .

decimatio

philologos wrote: »

If you had truly experienced the "Christian walk of life" you wouldn't be setting up a support group.

So how do you define a Christian then?

Anyone who is a true christian never leaves the faith so anyone who leaves the faith wasn't a true christian? How wonderful.

I assume it works similarily for murderers, pedophiles etc? A 'true' Christian would never do such things?

Sarky

I seem to recall him stating more than once that a true christian is on the same level as any of the worst criminals. It's a fascinating exercise in self-loathing.

krudler

Sarky wrote: »

in b4 [choose as applicable]:

"It makes sense to me" (Never explain why)
"The Bible is completely accurate" (Avoid how the original story changed before it was written down for the first time)
"Come back when you're ready for a debate" (Ignoring debate thus far because it doesn't go my way)
"The Bible was not written as fiction" (Except for the fictional bits)
"The Bible is not meant to be taken literally" (Except the bits that are)

"The Bible is true, because it has evidence of it, in it"

what evidence?

"Its right there!"

MadsL

philologos wrote: »

If you had truly experienced the "Christian walk of life" you wouldn't be setting up a support group.

And you complain when people troll the Christianity forum...

Ri na hEireann

philologos wrote: »

If you had truly experienced the "Christian walk of life" you wouldn't be setting up a support group.

As defined by?

philologos

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

As defined by?

As defined by Jesus, and the Apostles in the New Testament. If people are talking about church screw-ups I'd agree. I'm opposed to those entirely and wholeheartedly. I can think of no reasonable objection to the Gospel that Jesus gave us though.

I wonder how much of the discussion at one of these support groups would be specifically based on Christian teaching, rather than the failings of one church or many which we can all attest to. (By the by such failings aren't limited to faith groups, they can happen widely in secular organisations too).

It was a passing comment. I didn't intend to disrupt the discussion.

5uspect

philologos wrote: »

It was a passing comment. I didn't intend to disrupt the discussion.

You're not that naive.

aidan24326

For me the idea of a 'former christian support group' is cringeworthy. What would you need a support group for?

actuallylike

Social Caios wrote: »

just as AA or NA or a divorce support group, this is for people who have left the church, and for those who have experienced the damage the church can do and need help getting on in life.

philologos wrote: »

If you had truly experienced the "Christian walk of life" you wouldn't be setting up a support group.

philologos wrote: »

It was a passing comment. I didn't intend to disrupt the discussion.

Oh you are a real piece of work. The OP asks for support in escaping what you offer, likens it to AA and you rub it in his face?!? Revolting.

aidan24326 wrote: »

For me the idea of a 'former christian support group' is cringeworthy. What would you need a support group for?

To deal with people like above, they are not isolated.

robindch

^^^ Folks, calm down please.

aidan24326

actuallylike wrote: »

To deal with people like above, they are not isolated.

And why would you need a support group for that?

actuallylike

aidan24326 wrote: »

And why would you need a support group for that?

If you were once part of said religion then wanted to be free of it, some people might find it tough if friend's or family held the attitudes of above. Some people might want to talk about it with like minded people. It's not for everyone but it could help some people?

Ri na hEireann

Social Caios wrote: »

I am trying to start up a support group for those that have experienced the Christian walk of life and for whatever reason have had enough and are struggling with trying to cope without the church and the loss of that social group..

Does this "whatever reason" encompass newly held disbelief or is it for those who still believe but just left one particular church or another? There is a marked difference and it would seem counter-intuitive to have both groups at the one meeting since they'll both be looking for two completely differing things.

In terms of missing out on a social group there should be plenty of substitutes depending on what you're in to, especially in the College Rd area of Cork City and especially at this time of year with UCC starting back.

ShooterSF

aidan24326 wrote: »

For me the idea of a 'former christian support group' is cringeworthy. What would you need a support group for?

Have you ever read some of the views held on these forums alone by some Christians? If they ever left the church a lot of psychological problems would linger. Just because you and I were probably never in too deep doesn't mean no one was or that asking for support should be seen as cringe worthy. I myself while never being indoctrinated to deeply had a host of issues dealing with the opposite sex because of what Christianity had instilled in me long after I had dropped the belief. This is stuff I'm still only getting over in the last few years, nearly a decade after I dropped belief because your sub-concious isn't as quick to change with logical persuasion.

To suggest there aren't people out there truly messed up by the church seems like careless projecting to me.

eviltwin

ShooterSF wrote: »

Have you ever read some of the views held on these forums alone by some Christians? If they ever left the church a lot of psychological problems would linger. Just because you and I were probably never in too deep doesn't mean no one was or that asking for support should be seen as cringe worthy. I myself while never being indoctrinated to deeply had a host of issues dealing with the opposite sex because of what Christianity had instilled in me long after I had dropped the belief. This is stuff I'm still only getting over in the last few years, nearly a decade after I dropped belief because your sub-concious isn't as quick to change with logical persuasion.

To suggest there aren't people out there truly messed up by the church seems like careless projecting to me.

I actually think the idea of a group like this is a great idea.

I know some people just leave and that's it but its not always easy to just walk away. When I decided to leave the Church I faced a lot of opposition from my family, all of whom are very involved with the local Church. It got so bad that for a while I couldn't have any contact with them, it died down and then all came back again when they found out I wasn't having my son christened.

It sounds so stupid but it was a really difficult time in my life and advice from other people was a variation of "don't let it bother you" ( easier said than done ) or "just go back to church and get the child christened" ( not an option )

Had something like this been around I probably would have gone. Best of luck with it, I think it has a lot of potential.

actuallylike

ShooterSF wrote: »

Have you ever read some of the views held on these forums alone by some Christians? If they ever left the church a lot of psychological problems would linger. Just because you and I were probably never in too deep doesn't mean no one was or that asking for support should be seen as cringe worthy. I myself while never being indoctrinated to deeply had a host of issues dealing with the opposite sex because of what Christianity had instilled in me long after I had dropped the belief. This is stuff I'm still only getting over in the last few years, nearly a decade after I dropped belief because your sub-concious isn't as quick to change with logical persuasion.

To suggest there aren't people out there truly messed up by the church seems like careless projecting to me.

My mam for example would be the type of person that might go to this (it would take a push though). Raised the old fashioned way, church every Sunday, helping the local priest with housework and all that. She absolutely despises the church now in relation to their dealings with the scandals, you can't shut her up about it. She talks about how everyone did what they said years ago and it was hard to understand why except that they were simply brainwashed by them. Then when I question why she still ticks Catholic on the census, still welcomes in the local priests for tea and why she tries to insist that I should be married in a Catholic church and never says anything she gets flustered and changes the subject immediately. She's still brainwashed. She feels hatred for the Catholic church but can't leave it. a group like this might be amazing for people like her.

robindch

aidan24326 wrote: »

And why would you need a support group for that?

There are people in my extended family, and people whom I know outside my extended family, who certainly would need support if they abandoned their religion. The people who go in too deep, tie their identity and sometimes their entire raison d'être to it. Take those away, and sometimes there can be little or nothing left. See How Cults Work for some of what those recovering from religion can face.

BTW, here are two existing groups:

http://recoveringfromreligion.org/ (for regular people)
http://clergyproject.org/ (for clerics who've left their religion)

Fortyniner

I think the Cork Humanists might be interested in working with you, Mark. You can contact us at corkhumanists@gmail.com.

kylith

philologos wrote: »

As defined by Jesus, and the Apostles in the New Testament. If people are talking about church screw-ups I'd agree. I'm opposed to those entirely and wholeheartedly. I can think of no reasonable objection to the Gospel that Jesus gave us though.

I wonder how much of the discussion at one of these support groups would be specifically based on Christian teaching, rather than the failings of one church or many which we can all attest to. (By the by such failings aren't limited to faith groups, they can happen widely in secular organisations too).

It was a passing comment. I didn't intend to disrupt the discussion.

Since Jesus said that people who want to follow him should sell their possessions and give all the money to the poor, and you obviously haven't done this, what with having a computer and all, so you are not a true Christian either, and therefore unqualified to pass judgement (which a true christian shouldn't do anyway) on what other people may or may not need post religion.

LadyMayBelle

I bumped this thread because I attended and was a member of a christian church for over twenty years, through my childhood and teens and into my early twenties tipped into degrees of leadership. The best thing I ever did was leave. But I've no one to speak to about it, as either my friends and extended family have never been involved, and those who are still involved are so to varying degrees. I felt a need to write it all down, which I've done, but feel I'd like it to be validated somewhat. I've battled thru feeling hurt, angry, embarrassed, rejected, deprived, relieved and believe Ive missed out so much. My non involvement causes issues with family and affected realtionships in the past. I don't want a group that's goIng to compare and contrast all the bad things but a group that can truly understand me ( and not secretly go and pray for me because I'm being blinded by the devil), not judge me and share positive experiences, how to get by with day to day difficulties. I was blinded by the light I was told to seek and would genuinely love support. That's my layman's reasoning anyway.

philologos

kylith wrote: »

Since Jesus said that people who want to follow him should sell their possessions and give all the money to the poor, and you obviously haven't done this, what with having a computer and all, so you are not a true Christian either, and therefore unqualified to pass judgement (which a true christian shouldn't do anyway) on what other people may or may not need post religion.

To clarify:
I've not cast judgement on this thread at all. I merely said that if one had genuinely seen "the Christian walk of life" as Jesus has described in the New Testament, one wouldn't have a need to set up a support group.

By the by, Mark chapter 10 and Matthew 19 have been tackled over on the Christianity forum quite extensively. Here's one of my posts on the issue. It'd be good to discuss certainly, and I would welcome that. I'd welcome walking through Jesus' words with you and anyone else.

It's not my place to judge at all, it's God's place. I have no such right, particularly when I believe that God has spared His wrath from me by sending His Son to save me from the rightful penalty of sin. More than happy to talk about that with you and anyone else also.

robindch

philologos wrote: »

I merely said that if one had genuinely seen "the Christian walk of life" as Jesus has described in the New Testament, one wouldn't have a need to set up a support group.

As above, I disagree. I've seen what happens when people are unable to limit the extent of their religious beliefs -- something you seem to have philosophical problems at least doing yourself -- and it can be a pretty unpleasant sight. One guy I knew committed suicide perhaps twenty years ago, and purely on account of his religious beliefs (a weird mishmash of catholicism mixed with some protestant-style revelation).

That Jesus quote about coming to separate a mum from her daughter, a father from his son etc springs to mind. And not just because it's one of the only truly accurate prophesies that the bible contains.

Or, more likely, perhaps you simply haven't seen what happens when people can't control their religious beliefs and can't imagine that what's no doubt the warm glow of fellowship that you feel now, takes on a sharp, very chilly edge as the years go by.

philologos

robindch: I guess, if I truly believe that God created the universe, and if I truly believe that God has revealed Himself to us, and indeed has given us standards to base our lives on, why would I limit that? Surely the reasonable position in that situation is to live for Him in His creation? I appreciate your concern, but I don't think it is well founded in the slightest. Yes, I understand that many people find my beliefs bizarre, but honestly I can say that I have a much healthier attitude to other people, and the place of mere material things in my life as a result.

I find the quote from Jesus where He says that families will be divided on account of His name strikingly true for a different reason. Namely, the world is largely intolerant to anyone who bases their lives wholeheartedly on the words of Jesus. Fortunately, that isn't true in the case of my family, but I know that it is true of many others in the world.

I've long stopped caring if people think I'm a fundamentalist, or who thinks I and others are nuts for believing wholeheartedly in Jesus. The cost of holding the beliefs I do is that some people will think that.

Galvasean

Phil, with all due respect, do you not think your "true Christian experience" comment (in the context of this thread) was unhelpful? While I'm sure you believe your version of Christianity is the right one and you certainly appear to be of one of the more pleasant variety, BUT likewise the nastier Christians also say they are the true Christians and your "Christian experience" is not the true one.

robindch

philologos wrote: »

if I truly believe that God created the universe, and if I truly believe that God has revealed Himself to us, and indeed has given us standards to base our lives on, why would I limit that?

Because -- like the billions of people who went before you with different religious beliefs, each one of whom thought themselves similarly possessed of infinite truth -- you might be wrong?

marienbad

Galvasean wrote: »

Phil, with all due respect, do you not think your "true Christian experience" comment (in the context of this thread) was unhelpful? While I'm sure you believe your version of Christianity is the right one and you certainly appear to be of one of the more pleasant variety, BUT likewise the nastier Christians also say they are the true Christians and your "Christian experience" is not the true one.

Yeah Phil- this is the very same question I put to you in another thread

Ri na hEireann

philologos wrote: »

To clarify:
I've not cast judgement on this thread at all. I merely said that if one had genuinely seen "the Christian walk of life" as Jesus has described in the New Testament, one wouldn't have a need to set up a support group.

In your opinion. Personally I think that anyone who believes some if not most of claims emanating from most religions could do with some sort of support upon relinquishing said beliefs and discovering an intellectual liberation where the shackles of ignorance can be dispelled for reason and logic, and where they can hopefully see the true wonder of the world and the universe without needing recourse to some made-up celestial dictatorship.

I know I find the universe and the amazing things within it more awe-inspiring than any miraculous claims our world religions make. Things like event horizons and evolution and the randomness of our existence - its precarious and fragile nature - and the sheer power of the human mind, but yet the vastness of the things it doesn't yet know and will probably never know.

These phenomenon to name but a few, and the things we can learn about them should make getting up in the morning worthwhile and are surely more impressive than some convoluted nonsense about a 3-in-1 god who sent his only son, who happened to be part of himself to earth in order to be given as a human sacrifice/quasi suicide to save us all from the sins we hadn't committed yet, only to resurrect as some sort of zombie. Even the "miracles" he apparently carried out along the way are bland in comparison to say what you'd find in a JK Rowling book.

actuallylike

philologos wrote: »

I merely said that if one had genuinely seen "the Christian walk of life" as Jesus has described in the New Testament, one wouldn't have a need to set up a support group.

I realise you think you're trying to help but in this thread, the reason it was started, the point the OP was making, you're not wanted. You're coming across as a barman storming an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. You don't like Scripture? Here's a bit more. It's a bit offside to be honest.

philologos wrote: »

but honestly I can say that I have a much healthier attitude to other people, and the place of mere material things in my life as a result.

According to you and you only

philologos

Galvasean wrote: »

Phil, with all due respect, do you not think your "true Christian experience" comment (in the context of this thread) was unhelpful?

I only posted it to cause the OP to question if he was really talking about Christian experience. Perhaps I was a little quick off the mark.

Galvasean wrote: »

While I'm sure you believe your version of Christianity is the right one and you certainly appear to be of one of the more pleasant variety, BUT likewise the nastier Christians also say they are the true Christians and your "Christian experience" is not the true one.

The beautiful thing is, it isn't about my version of Christianity. We can clearly see what Jesus advocated on the pages of the New Testament. It is clear to say the least as to the life that He called us to lead. I'd encourage people just to pick up Mark's Gospel and see.

I guess, I'd be more interested in discussing why people feel the need for one of these, and yeah perhaps I was a little quick off the mark, but I'm mostly certain that very little of this stuff will actually have any grounding in what Jesus actually said.

I'd be fascinated in particular to discuss the experiences of some posters who have said that they would need a support group, and believe it or not, I'd be willing to just listen for a bit!

Rí na hEireann: I had a response ready for you, but I'm not sure if I want to muddy the waters any more by responding to it here. I'll leave you a PM.

Improbable

philologos wrote: »

The beautiful thing is, it isn't about my version of Christianity. We can clearly see what Jesus advocated on the pages of the New Testament. It is clear to say the least as to the life that He called us to lead. I'd encourage people just to pick up Mark's Gospel and see.

Just to pick up on this bit, is it not the case that there are allegorical and metaphorical stories contained within the bible? In interpreting these stories, how do you determine that the interpretation you have is necessarily the correct one? In addition to that, given the fact that such an ancient document has gone through many translations and that some of the translations may not have been entirely accurate, how do you come to the conclusion that you are reading a fully accurate account of what the historical person Jesus said/thought. Also, how do you reconcile some of the contradictions within the bible?

My point is that I don't think there can be one definitive version of what christianity is, as evidenced by the fact that there are different interpretations of the message that he supposedly espoused and the manipulation of it by historic and modern figures. So to say that what you believe is the definitive version of the truth of the matter is, to me, a bit presumptuous.

philologos

Improbable wrote: »

philologos wrote: »

The beautiful thing is, it isn't about my version of Christianity. We can clearly see what Jesus advocated on the pages of the New Testament. It is clear to say the least as to the life that He called us to lead. I'd encourage people just to pick up Mark's Gospel and see.

Just to pick up on this bit, is it not the case that there are allegorical and metaphorical stories contained within the bible? In interpreting these stories, how do you determine that the interpretation you have is necessarily the correct one? In addition to that, given the fact that such an ancient document has gone through many translations and that some of the translations may not have been entirely accurate, how do you come to the conclusion that you are reading a fully accurate account of what the historical person Jesus said/thought. Also, how do you reconcile some of the contradictions within the bible?

My point is that I don't think there can be one definitive version of what christianity is, as evidenced by the fact that there are different interpretations of the message that he supposedly espoused and the manipulation of it by historic and modern figures. So to say that what you believe is the definitive version of the truth of the matter is, to me, a bit presumptuous.

There's parable in the Bible sure. I'm not convinced that parable of necessity means unclear either. There's also a heck of a lot of plain speaking as to how we as Christians should then live in this creation. I'd encourage you to look into Matthew 5 through 8 or Luke 6. It's pretty clear and radical stuff about how those who belong to Jesus should live.

As for alleged contradictions we've had many on the Atheist / Christian debate thread on the Christianity forum. None have held up on scrutiny to date. I'd encourage you to post any you claim to have over there.

28064212

philologos wrote: »

I guess, I'd be more interested in discussing why people feel the need for one of these, and yeah perhaps I was a little quick off the mark, but I'm mostly certain that very little of this stuff will actually have any grounding in what Jesus actually said.

Why on earth would an "Ex-Christian Support group" have any mention of anything in scripture? Would an Ex-Scientology Support Group talk about Xenu? Would an AA meeting discuss the merits of different types of beer?

robindch

philologos wrote: »

The beautiful thing is, it isn't about my version of Christianity. We can clearly see what Jesus advocated on the pages of the New Testament.

So your version of christianity is the One True Version and anybody who calls themselves a christian, but who disagrees with you about something, is wrong?

And more generally, as I asked last night, when you suggested that there should be no limits on what you do in the service of your religion, you believe that it's impossible that you could be wrong?

tony81

A lot of former-atheists also attends meetings once a week called "mass". Good luck with your new church, op.

Galvasean

philologos wrote: »

We can clearly see what Jesus advocated on the pages of the New Testament.

To that end, have you given away all your posessions yet?

tony81 wrote: »

A lot of former-atheists also attends meetings once a week called "mass". Good luck with your new church, op.

You do realise that not every instance where multiple people meet up is a mass?
Of course you do. I smell a troll attempt.

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

To that end, have you given away all your posessions yet?

I think that bit was metaphorical - Jesus was probably talking about giving away your religion all the time.

Improbable

philologos wrote: »

There's parable in the Bible sure. I'm not convinced that parable of necessity means unclear either. There's also a heck of a lot of plain speaking as to how we as Christians should then live in this creation. I'd encourage you to look into Matthew 5 through 8 or Luke 6. It's pretty clear and radical stuff about how those who belong to Jesus should live.

As for alleged contradictions we've had many on the Atheist / Christian debate thread on the Christianity forum. None have held up on scrutiny to date. I'd encourage you to post any you claim to have over there.

"Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven."

philologos

Galvasean wrote: »

To that end, have you given away all your posessions yet.

I dealt with that already in another post on this thread. I linked to a post where I look clearly to the context of the discussion and how Jesus deals with Zaccheus in another context.

You should read what I've already posted before responding. robindch could do with going the same.

Sarky

Obviously "give away all your possessions" means something completely different when read with an open heart. As doe practising righteousness in front of others.