Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

Peregrinus

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Well I think Richard Feynman said it best:

"If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are who made the guess, or what his name is… If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it."

So would you be fo the view, then, that there is evidence suggesting that reason is not always a reliable technique for understanding/explaining the reality we observe?

oldrnwisr

Peregrinus wrote: »

So would you be fo the view, then, that there is evidence suggesting that reason is not always a reliable technique for understanding/explaining the reality we observe?

Well, I would be of the view that evidence may contradict our current reasoning based on previous experience. However, the assimilation of the evidence into our understanding will lead to new reasoning. Take the idea of double-slit experiments like Davisson and Lerner in 1927 or Arndt et al. in 1999. Reason would have told us that we should expect that more hits would be detected when both slits were open rather than just one. However, what we found was that opening the second slit increased hits at some location and also decreased them at others. The evidence conflicted with the reasoning forcing a change in our understanding. Reason is based on logic and our combined knowledge to date. However, there are times when this is insufficient to explain reality.

walshb

robindch wrote: »

Seems Mr Arnold wishes us to be thankful that thoughtcrime wasn't on the statute book.

He said that being a homosexual was not a crime.

Mr. CooL ICE

Passed a big no rally outside Stephens Green on my way home from an exam. I narrowly failed my exam and wanted to punch something. I passed somebody with floppy hair, glasses and in a suit and did a double take. Yep, it was Herr Mullen.

No, I didn't punch him, but dammit it was tempting.

wampyrus77

Vote yes on Friday

robindch

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

I passed somebody with floppy hair, glasses and in a suit and did a double take. Yep, it was Herr Mullen.

I work in the city center too and see him and Little Quinn from time to time. The temptation to doorstep them can sometimes be almost overwhelming.

jooksavage

robindch wrote: »

I work in the city center too and see him and Little Quinn from time to time. The temptation to doorstep them can sometimes be almost overwhelming.

Is it just me or does RM bear a passing resemblance to Simon Bird's character from The Inbetweeners? In both looks and general shrill
demeanour.

robindch

Mary McAleese opens both barrels in the direction of the church. An Ionanist responds.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/mcaleese-accuses-catholic-church-of-hypocrisy-over-equality-331781.html

Irish Examiner wrote:

She criticised Catholic bishops for failing to mention in their strident anti-marriage equality campaign that the Church teaches that homosexual inclination is “objectively disordered”. Speaking at an event hosted by the BeLonG To organisation, which offers support to young gay people, Ms McAleese used the example of her son Justin as to why the law needed to change.

“A yes vote costs the rest of us nothing,” she said. “A no vote costs our gay children everything. Why? Because differential treatment of homosexual citizens, by excluding them from secular civil marriage, undermines civic equality and permanently locks in inequality. I am grateful that my gay son grew up in a gay-friendly household. But we were not able to protect him from hostility outside our home and, like so many parents of gay children, we were worried sick about the manmade barriers we knew he would encounter, including the Constitutional barrier that would never let him marry the person he loved. No parent brings a child into the world to be a second-class citizen".

ShooterSF

horseburger wrote: »

just curious, is this the case to which you are referring?

http://www.thejournal.ie/donegal-mass-gay-marriage-eamon-mcgee-1984051-Mar2015/

In fairness, there are many who attend Mass and have a faith, who would have a more open mind on various issues, including the referendum, in that they wouldn't simply vote No just because the Bishops have advocated voting No.

I reckon many of them will be voting Yes in the referendum.

In this episode of Tonight with Vincent Browne, that was presented by Ger Colleran, Eamon Dunphy, at the 21 minute mark, speaks about how a lot of people in Ireland have a faith in their religion, from which they get comfort.

The phrase he used was "you have to distinguish between God and his representatives".

I interpret what he said to be about how their faith and devotion to the Catholic Church is a separate thing from certain policies or views of the leaders of the Catholic Church in recent years - for example the Bishops and Pope's views on same sex marriage, or details revealed in recent years of inaction by those leaders in dealing with clerical sexual abuse in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, which have caused many people to question and distrust those leaders - policies that were carried out, with which they would disagree.

For example, Tom Curran of Fine Gael spoke on Sean O'Rourke's radio show yesterday, Monday 18th May, (the link to the interview is in the podcasts link below) speaking about his Catholic faith, and the fact that one of his son's is gay, and about how he is advocating a Yes vote.

He was interviewed in the Irish Independent recently about his stance on the referendum.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/today-with-sean-o-rourke/podcasts/

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/as-a-man-of-faith-and-a-proud-dad-to-a-gay-son-i-urge-all-catholics-to-do-the-right-thing-and-vote-yes-31208271.html

here is another example:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/referendum/i-believe-my-son-was-born-gay-and-god-cherishes-him-equally-31237634.html

There's a group called We Are Church Ireland, who would have very different analysis on these issues, than groups like the Iona Institute.

http://wearechurchireland.ie/

https://www.facebook.com/WeAreChurchIreland/info?ref=page_internal

https://www.facebook.com/WeAreChurchIreland/posts/952452044775470:0

A priest in Donegal has stated he's voting Yes

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/donegal-priest-says-he-will-vote-yes-in-marriage-referendum-1.2206838

http://www.newstalk.com/LISTEN:-My-conscience-is-clear--Donegal-priest-discusses-decision-to-vote-Yes-in-upcoming-referendum

Not that specific case, it was on my news feed people congratulating others for walking out. Which is fine if they were walking away from a vile organisation, but they're not. They're basically saying, look I'm okay with my church's bigotry as long as no one mentions it. It's disgusting. they'll be back in the building the following week and nothing will be different, except the priest won't be vocally pointing out the church's view on homosexuality.

I have no problem with devout catholics wanting equality for their children with regards civil marriage as long as they realise that they are a member of a church that opposes it and won't recognise the marriage.

To be honest what really annoyed me about the whole thing was the sentence I highlighted. The church does not want an equal society and promises the very opposite in the after life and I wanted to highlight that point to a few friends who will be back at mass this Sunday after walking out last week.

robindch

The International New York Times prints a certain mural:

robindch

Conor Cusack, a former Cork hurler and mental-health advocate, makes an emotional appeal on Brenan O'Connor's talkshow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZVD0eBQ3LE

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

The International New York Times prints a certain mural:

Who does them murals? I've seen a few around Limerick and they're quite nice. Lends a certain élan to a place.

Hotblack Desiato

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Who does them murals? I've seen a few around Limerick and they're quite nice. Lends a certain élan to a place.

Joe Caslin. He's got a new one up now on a castle
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/joe-caslin-installs-second-mural-on-the-side-of-a-castle-1.2218016

Frank Bullitt

Also made with biodegradable paper in case anyone thinks they are harmful to the environment.

K4t

walshb wrote: »

He said that being a homosexual was not a crime.

Yeah, which is worse in a way. You can be homosexual, but you must resist any and all urges to express your sexuality in a physical way. It's sadomasochistic, and it's entirely sinister to try and make an argument of tolerance towards homosexuals out of it now. It does explain how the ideas of conversion therapy and homosexuality as a choice have such prominence among religious fundamentalists though.

jooksavage wrote: »

Is it just me or does RM bear a passing resemblance to Simon Bird's character from The Inbetweeners? In both looks and general shrill
demeanour.

Brilliant!

horseburger

ShooterSF wrote: »

Not that specific case, it was on my news feed people congratulating others for walking out. Which is fine if they were walking away from a vile organisation, but they're not. They're basically saying, look I'm okay with my church's bigotry as long as no one mentions it. It's disgusting. they'll be back in the building the following week and nothing will be different, except the priest won't be vocally pointing out the church's view on homosexuality.

I have no problem with devout catholics wanting equality for their children with regards civil marriage as long as they realise that they are a member of a church that opposes it and won't recognise the marriage.

To be honest what really annoyed me about the whole thing was the sentence I highlighted. The church does not want an equal society and promises the very opposite in the after life and I wanted to highlight that point to a few friends who will be back at mass this Sunday after walking out last week.

The group We Are Church Ireland is not saying that. It is calling for a change to the Catholic Church leaders stance on homosexuality and other issues.

Brendan Butler of We Are Church Ireland discusses this in this video at the 48 minute mark, where he says their aim is to challenge "objectionable teachings in our Catholic Church", for example that a homosexual person has an intrinsic disorder. He said it was a "total disgrace for such a thing to be said about another person".

jooksavage

ShooterSF wrote: »

To be honest what really annoyed me about the whole thing was the sentence I highlighted. The church does not want an equal society and promises the very opposite in the after life and I wanted to highlight that point to a few friends who will be back at mass this Sunday after walking out last week.

I'm one of those people. I'll be voting yes. So will my elderly parents. And on Sunday, rightly or wrongly, they'll go to mass. I go a few times a month so I might be there as well.

I am aware of the conflict here - my finance finds it frustrating that I have anything to do with an organisation that regards her brother and his partner as "disordered". There's lots I hate about the Catholic church. I never remember a time when my parents, ostensibly devout Catholics, weren't at odds with their church on issues like divorce, abortion or homosexuality. I grew up in the 90s when the abuse scandal was breaking. I don't know if its a uniquely Catholic/Irish Catholic trait but I've always been aware that (excepting Iona-type zealots) the dwindling number of practicing Cathloics now tolerate a certain (ie huge) disconnect between the Church and the real world. I don't know if this is sustainsble.

I don't know if I'll still be going in 5 or 10 years time. All I know is what I've gotten from it so far - my parents religion isn't the intolerant, out of touch Catholicism of David Quinn or Breda O'Brien.

jooksavage

walshb wrote: »

He said that being a homosexual was not a crime.

Arnold was also sh*ting on in the Irish Times, arguing against SSM on the basis of preserving bloodlines etc. Good to know his position on the matter. As Gene Kerrigan of the Sunday Indo pointed out, his argument is so unpalatable that the No side dont even want to use it.

PopePalpatine

So...basically Kermit in the AH thread last night?

Delirium

AUDIO: Iona Institute director David Quinn and Newstalk's Chris Donoghue go head to head in heated debate on referendum

Love the irony of David stating that Chris has "attempted to muddy the waters to the most furious extent in any interview I've heard" :pac:

lazygal

SW wrote: »

AUDIO: Iona Institute director David Quinn and Newstalk's Chris Donoghue go head to head in heated debate on referendum

Love the irony of David stating that Chris has "attempted to muddy the waters to the most furious extent in any interview I've heard" :pac:

Yeah, my irony meter exploded hearing that yesterday. It is obvious that Quinn isn't used to having to defend his more unpalatable writing and opinions. I especially loved when he said he didn't write something, then moved to say it was the old 'taken out of context' thing.

Pherekydes

Kevin Myers on Pat Kenny now, arguing that homosexual unions will not be valid because they can't consummate them (in the same way heterosexuals can).

He's in favour of SSM, but is voting against it.

Go figure...

Zubeneschamali

Pherekydes wrote: »

Kevin Myers on Pat Kenny now, arguing that homosexual unions will not be valid because they can't consummate them (in the same way heterosexuals can).

I'd say Kevin is really jealous of all the attention John Waters has been getting. I'm surprised we didn't hear more bollox from him earlier in the campaign.

Nodin

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I'd say Kevin is really jealous of all the attention John Waters has been getting. I'm surprised we didn't hear more bollox from him earlier in the campaign.

He's writing a book on the regiment he wishes he'd been in at the mo.

jooksavage

Nodin wrote: »

He's writing a book on the regiment he wishes he'd been in at the mo.

I was wondering what he was doing all during the campaign. Normally he'd be all over it, condemning media bias etc.
For a guy who, as far as I’m aware, hasn’t ever served in the armed forces, he seems awfully martially-minded. I know he has reported from conflict zones but that’s not the same as actually serving (in spite of what Brian Williams & Billy O’Reilly might say). Kind of always struck me as one of those Tom Clancy-type, military aficionados who’d piss their pants if confronted with the actual prospect of death.

Going Strong

jooksavage wrote: »

I was wondering what he was doing all during the campaign. Normally he'd be all over it, condemning media bias etc.
For a guy who, as far as I’m aware, hasn’t ever served in the armed forces, he seems awfully martially-minded. I know he has reported from conflict zones but that’s not the same as actually serving (in spite of what Brian Williams & Billy O’Reilly might say). Kind of always struck me as one of those Tom Clancy-type, military aficionados who’d piss their pants if confronted with the actual prospect of death.

I think a lot of it comes from his disgust that Ireland is a (relatively) anti-militarist (or apathetic about military matters at best) country compared to the UK. I've read articles by him stretching back to the 1980's where he bemoans this. Usually dressed up as an attack on the lack of recognition for Irishmen who fought in both World Wars or else at our neutrality being a fig leaf for political and cultural cowardice. Unfortunately for Kevin, it comes across as being written by an internet warrior or armchair general.

With the current inclusion of Ireland into remembrance ceremonies, a main plank of his argument has been removed so he casts a wider and wider net in search of something else to rail about. Being anti-SSM is just another attempt at his trolling - mainly because all those he loathes are on the "Yes" side of the argument. Hence his "I'm for SSM but voting No" eejitry.

Penn

Just noticed on the Google Ireland page:

"Google supports marriage equality #ProudToLove"

It also links to a video (can't watch it as I'm in work):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuaDPZINJc4

robindch

A "Who's who" of legal eagles on either side of the debate.

Note for any RTE people reading - the scales are not "balanced".

http://constitutionproject.ie/?p=519

robindch

And for a change, here's Kathy Sheridan, a catholic who's sick to the back of her teeth of certain individuals taking god over for the duration of the campaign:

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/kathy-sheridan-where-is-the-god-of-love-in-the-same-sex-marriage-debate-1.2218525

Zubeneschamali

Going Strong wrote: »

I think a lot of it comes from his disgust that Ireland is a (relatively) anti-militarist (or apathetic about military matters at best) country compared to the UK.

I thought he had relations who died in the British Army in WWI?