Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

LXFlyer

Davidth88 wrote: »

Whoa Lxflyer , that is some answer ! ( thanks very much !!)

On the Cork one , I am a little confused , the reason being about 1 year ago I was travelling from Killarney- Dublin ( via Mallow ) and arrived in Dublin 25 mins EARLY , yeas 25 mins EARLY ..... so it is possible to lose 25 mins between Mallow and Dublin , now this was on a Sunday so it could be the track was empty.

Perhaps some temporary speed restrictions had been removed, I don't know. The schedule as stands is designed to allow for works to be carried out along the line - if they're not then it is possible that you could arrive earlier provided there are no intermediate stops.

Davidth88 wrote: »

The Rosslare one , wow , you lost me totally ( Il have to sit down and sketch it out when I am feeling bored ). But are you essentially saying that because of restrictions ( ie single track ) between Bray and Greystones this is why the train cannot accomodate the Ship passengers ? , Couldn't there be a train that terminates at Greystones from Rosslare to connect with the Dart ?

The 30 minute frequency on DART between Bray and Greystones (both directions) means Rosslare line trains can only leave Connolly so that they leave Bray southbound at either xx:17 or xx:47. Similarly northbound trains can only leave Greystones at xx:24 or xx:54.

That is important as that dictates when the three southbound peak Rosslare line services must operate at. They leave Connolly at 16:36, 17:37 and 18:38. I can't really see changing the times of those trains by thirty minutes going too well with many passengers.

The relevance of all this is:
1) The northbound train from Rosslare has to cross all three of these trains at passing loops en route. Leaving before 19:15 will mean either a long wait at Enniscorthy (27 minutes) to cross the middle train or a longer than acceptable wait for the 17:37 at Gorey which would have far more passengers on board.

2) The northbound train has to fit into the DART service pattern

3) Deferring to 19:15 would mean arriving into Dublin at 22:15. In the absence of an additional train in the timetable (unlikely due to the cost) this would mean a 6.5 hour gap in northbound trains which would be far too long, and would discommode far more users rather than it would facilitate.

The real problem is crossing the three trains (that are each one hour apart) between Rosslare and Greystones - their timings are dictated by the DART service pattern. You can only cross at passing loops. That makes pathing VERY VERY difficult.

Davidth88 wrote: »

On the Kerry Airport one , I suppose that is too difficult , it's a shame because this is I think the only airport in Ireland with a station within walking distance .

What about the through trains Cork- Belfast ?

Just can't see it happening to be honest. Different rolling stock, additional costs etc.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

For years people complained about variable gaps in DART services. Now that there is a basic 15 minute DART frequency and 30 minutes to Greystones you're suggesting breaking that up again?

if a dublin or rosslare bound train is not far behind then i don't see a problem.

lxflyer wrote: »

As I understand it the reason for the station move came from both the customs authorities who wanted a completely secure "shipside" area, and the ferry operators who wanted guaranteed access to/from the ships without it being blocked by the level crossing that was in the middle of the access lane.

and they didn't think of wanting that when IE moved the station to the port in the first place no? or couldn't have got a railway bridge built? CIE should have just told them to put up with the level crossing in exchange for lower fees, or even better not move the station near the port in the first place.

lxflyer wrote: »

The latter could well be the case, but I suspect the costs of putting an extra train on would not be offset by a handful of additional ferry passengers, much and all as I would like to see it.

yet they can find the money to run trains up and down the WRC which hardly anyone uses? whatever about ferry passengers what about the ordinary passenger who might actually want more services and may actually use them if provided? fact is IE isn't interested in this line and never has been.

lxflyer wrote: »

there are far more passengers on the DART between Bray and Greystones and on the three peak hour southbound services than would ever be travelling by foot on the ferry.

again what about the ordinary passenger on this line? the greystones bray line is single track, they knew this when they built the dart extension, but they never thought of the future problems when adding extra services to rosslare/wexford/goarey.

lxflyer wrote: »

As I said in my post above - the only way a connection can happen is if an extra mid-morning Dublin-Rosslare and mid-afternoon Rosslare-Dublin service were to be added to the timetable. In the current circumstances that frankly is not going to happen.

i think you mean no matter the circumstances it was never going to happen. the current circumstances have nothing to do with the running of this line, its IE's lack of interest in it in the first place.
it may sound like i'm dismissing your points but i'm not i've traveled up and down this line for years and have seen the shambles that it is, sure things have slightly got better but new trains is only part of it.

LXFlyer

end of the road wrote: »

if a dublin or rosslare bound train is not far behind then i don't see a problem.

At the end of the day it's the three southbound Rosslare line services that are dictating when the northbound train can operate. Removing a southbound DART in the evening peak between Bray and Greystones would lead to a 60 minute gap in service northbound from Greystones due to their being no Rosslare line service to take its place.

You're dwelling too much on that one issue.

As I said, it's the DART service pattern, location of passing loops, long gap in northbound trains, much later arrival into Dublin, all of which combined cause the problem.

end of the road wrote: »

and they didn't think of wanting that when IE moved the station to the port in the first place no? or couldn't have got a railway bridge built? CIE should have just told them to put up with the level crossing in exchange for lower fees, or even better not move the station near the port in the first place.

I'm not being flippant here but the later station was built in the pre-9/11 era. Things changed after that at ports and airports and from what I understand it was both the garda and the customs authorities that insisted on a secure area with no level crossing.

end of the road wrote: »

yet they can find the money to run trains up and down the WRC which hardly anyone uses? whatever about ferry passengers what about the ordinary passenger who might actually want more services and may actually use them if provided? fact is IE isn't interested in this line and never has been.

Well the WRC is a different issue altogether that I am not going to visit - that opens a complete can of worms that I am not getting involved in. I am merely pointing out that things on the Rosslare line are not as simple operationally as people have made out here. The infrastructure does pose restrictions on the service.

end of the road wrote: »

again what about the ordinary passenger on this line? the greystones bray line is single track, they knew this when they built the dart extension, but they never thought of the future problems when adding extra services to rosslare/wexford/goarey.

i think you mean no matter the circumstances it was never going to happen. the current circumstances have nothing to do with the running of this line, its IE's lack of interest in it in the first place.
it may sound like i'm dismissing your points but i'm not i've traveled up and down this line for years and have seen the shambles that it is, sure things have slightly got better but new trains is only part of it.

Going on and on about what might have been done or not done is not going to change things. We are where we are and the company has to make do with the infrastructure that it has.


As far as adding an extra train, I don't agree with your skepticism. I do have it on good authority that there was planned to be an extra service on the line, but as we all know things have changed economically in this country, and the economics right now do not allow for it. The company is trying to cut costs left, right and centre, and the subsidy is being cut too. Introducing extra services is exceptionally unlikely.

gsxr1

lxflyer wrote: »

Some good questions and I've tried to give you some simple answers to a few of them below:




Dublin-Cork (fastest trains) takes 2 hours 30 mins, with two stops. It has nothing to do with capacity but rather the state of the permanent way (i.e. the track and speed restrictions en route).

This is the problem that affects me. Directly.

I am a person/contractor (blurred) that fixes the line. Budget cuts and procurement have brought nearly all works to a halt.

I do agree that changes needed to be made , but the changes that have been made have been very extreme and travelers can expect more and more speed restrictions unless they get the right men back on track. Literally.

Wastage seems to been brought to a halt. But in doing so the lads that are on the coalface have been also been halted. If you want a running railway, then them people need to be kept going. They know what they are doing and other cheaper non skilled people are waiting to pick up the tools.
On IR heads be it. I would not employ a laborer to fix an electrical problem. Procurement seems to think it is ok. :eek:

Hilly Bill

You worked for a company that was hired by IE to do ground work on a project. You was also asked to help out on per-way work which only meant a bit of shoveling here and there . The project came to a halt and you wernt needed anymore . Irish Rail p-way staff will still be maintaining the per-way so there is no point in misleading the board readers.

purplepanda

Davidth88 wrote: »

, Couldn't there be a train that terminates at Greystones from Rosslare to connect with the Dart ?

Perhaps running some extra trains from Rosslare - Wexford - Greystones & back could be an good idea, DART maybe a bit slower to central Dublin but more potential onward journey options for passengers in many cases. Later evening services linking up with DART trains maybe?

Most "Inter City" services on this route are 1-4 minutes faster than the DART from Greystones! Unless a train is continuing onto Dundalk or somewhere else from Connelly it's just wasting it's potential duplicating existing DART services!!!!

Davidth88

lxflyer wrote: »

Just can't see it happening to be honest. Different rolling stock, additional costs etc.

I assume you are talking about Cork-Belfast

Why ?

I have seen Northern Irish trains traveling south to Dublin ( Football specials ) , and I have seen the same locos that run the ' Enterprise ' train on the Limerick line.

highlydebased

Davidth88 wrote: »

I assume you are talking about Cork-Belfast

Why ?

I have seen Northern Irish trains traveling south to Dublin ( Football specials ) , and I have seen the same locos that run the ' Enterprise ' train on the Limerick line.

The actual rolling stock used on the Enterprise is not cleared past Limk Junction I believe.

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You worked for a company that was hired by IE to do ground work on a project. You was also asked to help out on per-way work which only meant a bit of shoveling here and there . The project came to a halt and you wernt needed anymore . Irish Rail p-way staff will still be maintaining the per-way so there is no point in misleading the board readers.

Hilly, I can't speak for GSXR1 but I know a lad who is working for a company in a similar role. Their remit was for both day to day work, relaying of track, instaling new points etc and work on the reopened lines; far from a bit of shoveling here and there. Their outlook is pretty quiet as well with only emergency works and the odd routine job here and there; hardly ideal considering the amount of follow on renewal that is needed to ensure track speed limits are maintained at current levels, let alone increased.

Hilly Bill

They wernt Irish Rail staff though. They were contractors working on projects and those projects have come to an end. The New Works department has been dispanded and staff there have or are in the process of being re-deployed . Any per way work that any contractors carried out along side the perway gangs will now be done by the relevant perway gangs which has been boosted with staff from the dispanded new works dept and any upgrade works will be undertaken by these gangs.

cabincrewifly

I see from RTE news that CIE is getting an injection of €36 Million......

foggy_lad

cabincrewifly wrote: »

I see from RTE news that CIE is getting an injection of €36 Million......

C.I.E. or Irish Rail? If it goes to C.I.E. it will just vanish into the fog but at least Irish Rail would spend it on something, however foolish it might be.

Hilly Bill

It said CIE so its between them all.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It said CIE so its between them all.

It will vanish in the board members expenses bill then.

Hilly Bill

Do you know much about that Foggy?

bazza1

Fantastic! I wont have to let the home-help or the chauffeur go now!

Foie-Gras and champers all round!

Judgement Day

It will probably go towards Dick Fearn's clock.

foggy_lad

Judgement Day wrote: »

It will probably go towards Dick Fearn's clock.

It will be a life-size Big Ben in solid gold at this rate!

JeffK88

More increasing fares .. for next few years. Wow now thats how you save CIE , falling passenger numbers ohh i know lets increase fares more. The Death of CIE is near

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0725/bus-rail-fares-varadkar.html

nbar12

I can't stand the raising ticket prices. €2.50 for a single trip from my house to town on the Dart or €2.65 for the bus. I actually feel bad for people who have to pay more expensive prices than these. Think it's time to get the bike out and cycle everywhere!

Hilly Bill

To be fair €2.50 is not much now is it. Far less than a cost of a pint.

JeffK88

Without the Dublin Coach bus service I wouldn't be able to leave the town. 2 EURO for travel within Kildare and 5euro to the Red Cow. Compared to the train which is somewhere in the region of 13euro and Bus eireann around the same. More private operators like this could make a fortune by setting up similar services oh and its 24 hour service on a hourly basis. It also continues to the airport.

LXFlyer

JeffK88 wrote: »

More increasing fares .. for next few years. Wow now thats how you save CIE , falling passenger numbers ohh i know lets increase fares more. The Death of CIE is near

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0725/bus-rail-fares-varadkar.html

This is a government policy decision to shift more of the burden of running public transport onto passengers - frankly there is no other way of looking at it.

Someone has to pay for the running of it.

JeffK88

lxflyer wrote: »

This is a government policy decision to shift more of the burden of running public transport onto passengers - frankly there is no other way of looking at it.

Someone has to pay for the running of it.

I am aware of this and yes somebody has to pay for it but all this will do is create an exodus from CIE and open up the market for private operators. So if there is any on this forum set up routes along rail corridors and bus corridors.

nbar12

Hilly Bill wrote: »

To be fair €2.50 is not much now is it. Far less than a cost of a pint.

well i dont drink so I wouldnt know the price of a pint, anyway thats only a single fair, €4.50 for a return. I think that's a little steep if you use the dart regularly imo.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Someone has to pay for the running of it.

Of course, but we don't want to pay for the bloated, inefficent edifice that is CIE.

mickydoomsux

It's high time that the 600,000+ DSP pass holders are made to pay something for their travel, even if it's only quarter fares.

Raising the price for paying customers is ludicrous.

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

It's high time that the 600,000+ DSP pass holders are made to pay something for their travel, even if it's only quarter fares.

Raising the price for paying customers is ludicrous.

Get rid of subvention and hand the routes over to private operators and see how well they are able to operate the services!

dowlingm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Get rid of subvention and hand the routes over to private operators and see how well they are able to operate the services!

Hmm...
http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-business-plan-indicators-input-07/

Cost by franchise
Operator Operating cost (£m) Allocated network grant (£m)
c2c Rail 100.4 (1) 42.2
Chiltern 118.6 (1) 75.0
CrossCountry 409.4 (1) 291.2
East Coast 463.8 (2) 191.3
East Midlands Trains 307.4 (3) 183.9
First Capital Connect 338.5 (2) 117.9
First Greater Western 637.9 (2) 317.0
First Transpennine Express 203.7 (4) 116.8
London Midland 329.9 (5) 137.2
National Express East Anglia 414.5 (1) 211.4
Northern Rail 534.0 (6) 359.7
Southeastern 624.0 (5) 244.6
Southern 421.7 (7) 191.1
South West Trains 513.4 (3) 259.6
Virgin Tains 634.2 (8) 297.2

Don't get me wrong, I want to think an open access/franchise model could work in Ireland but let's be grown ups and accept that public transport costs money irrespective of ownership.

foggy_lad

dowlingm wrote: »

Hmm...
http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-business-plan-indicators-input-07/

Cost by franchise
Operator Operating cost (£m) Allocated network grant (£m)
c2c Rail 100.4 (1) 42.2
Chiltern 118.6 (1) 75.0
CrossCountry 409.4 (1) 291.2
East Coast 463.8 (2) 191.3
East Midlands Trains 307.4 (3) 183.9
First Capital Connect 338.5 (2) 117.9
First Greater Western 637.9 (2) 317.0
First Transpennine Express 203.7 (4) 116.8
London Midland 329.9 (5) 137.2
National Express East Anglia 414.5 (1) 211.4
Northern Rail 534.0 (6) 359.7
Southeastern 624.0 (5) 244.6
Southern 421.7 (7) 191.1
South West Trains 513.4 (3) 259.6
Virgin Tains 634.2 (8) 297.2

Don't get me wrong, I want to think an open access/franchise model could work in Ireland but let's be grown ups and accept that public transport costs money irrespective of ownership.

Then shut down the lines that are costing the taxpayer the most money as they are a luxury the country as a whole can not afford! Maybe it is ok for the CIE board members types to tavel in first class but only if they are paying the full cost of the ticket out of their own pockets and not on an expenses junket or paid for by higher fares for all other passengers!