Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

Jamie2k9

Remenber its not just Irish Rail operating the service and the future will very much depend on both operators agreement but I think its safe to say the current rolling stock will be around for a few years yet.

davidlacey

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Remenber its not just Irish Rail operating the service and the future will very much depend on both operators agreement but I think its safe to say the current rolling stock will be around for a few years yet.

I think it will too but according to the 2030 report the carriages are aging so this might suggest a change in the not so distant future

Jamie2k9

My option on the 2030 report is the majority of information in it is a load of bull sh*t to say the least. Its am ambition and thats all it will be and I would change it to 2060 before any changes are made unless IR are going to become very profitable and be able to foot the bill as the taxpayer won't be able to for many years to come and what they receive from the Goverment will be cut every single year.

What are they going to pay for the new stock with as both haven't a penny to spend on new trains or improvements to the network. They will get at least another 6-10 years out of them IMO but they will require an overhaul of some sort in the short term. If not you will see a mix of 22000 and Class 3000 operating on the line, next question could IR spare 22000 to operate I think not and I don't know much at NI railways but would guess they are in the same board.

dowlingm

davidlacey wrote: »

I think a more pressing issue is how many years do the die detrich( i know spelt wrong) carriages have left in them?

They are about 15 years old now - due for a mid-life refit around now but likely good for at least the same again.

dowlingm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

What are they going to pay for the new stock with as both haven't a penny to spend on new trains or improvements to the network. They will get at least another 6-10 years out of them IMO but they will require an overhaul of some sort in the short term. If not you will see a mix of 22000 and Class 3000 operating on the line, next question could IR spare 22000 to operate I think not and I don't know much at NI railways but would guess they are in the same board.

I believe there are decent efficiency gains to be had with a reshuffle of stock (DDs/201 to Heuston, 22K-Firsts to Enterprise when TPWSed). Sadly the joint ownership stuff will likely get in the way of any serious innovation as it has for years.

foggy_lad

yer man! wrote: »

I would definitely use that if it came into proper service. That's 35 minutes faster than the fastest bus to Dublin city from Galway.

If they run an express train it will most likely be one train per day at times that don't suit anybody making it more wasteful.

Judgement Day

bk wrote: »

Stop being so childish.

Of course I don't work for gobus or aircoach. In fact I have never worked for any transport company.

Many people on boards know who I am in real life, it is no secret at all. I work as a software engineer. Easily proven if the mods want confirmation.

Who do you work for JD? Care to prove it?

If you can't take a bit of gentle ribbing you're posting in the wrong forum - note that foggy_lad responded in a more adult manner here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79763586&postcount=167

I couldn't care less what you do in real life and my throwaway comment was in response to your continuous pro-bus/anti-rail posts.

Perhaps if you visited here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=126578 instead of assuming that we all know who you are. :rolleyes:

bk

No JD, it wasn't just gentle ribbing, a few times now you have accused me of working for this transport company or another and more then a few times you have accused me of being anti-rail, which I'm not.

As for the conflict of interest thread, I don't need to post on it, as I have no conflict of interest. However I note a number of people who post here, who clearly work for certain transport companies have not posted in this thread.

gobnaitolunacy

end of the road wrote: »

the mark 2s and cravens maybe but the mark 3s were comfortable and still in good condition.

I had to use my boot the last time I was in a mk3 to 'encourage' the door to open! Any remaining ones will be well mowldy in storage, the seating possibly resembling a month-old sliced pan by now.
I would wager that any regular passenger would prefer to travel in a 22k rather than a mk3, more power points, better layout etc. Cost far too much to bring what are fairly ancient stock at this remove up to this spec.

end of the road

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Any remaining ones will be well mowldy in storage, the seating possibly resembling a month-old sliced pan by now.

true, theirs no hope for them now.

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I would wager that any regular passenger would prefer to travel in a 22k rather than a mk3, more power points, better layout etc.

yes they would but as i'm sure you can see theirs an emerging ideal with in IE that says its okay to withdraw/store young stock. we've got 201s in storage which will most lightly not be used and nobody will buy them . the 8200 dart units didn't see much service and nobody will buy them most lightly even though their only 11 years old. the 2700s are 13/14 years old and are allready in storage and again i doubt anyone will buy them. i fear we could see some 22000s being stored in the not to distant future.

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Cost far too much to bring what are fairly ancient stock at this remove up to this spec.

now it would because of their time in some cases out in the elements. would it have cost to much to do the modifications at the time? i realy don't believe so.

foggy_lad

Loco-hauled passenger trains had to go because of the costs and reliability issues as well as the dirty grubby image of the mark 3s they had to go!

CIE

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I had to use my boot the last time I was in a mk3 to 'encourage' the door to open! Any remaining ones will be well mowldy in storage, the seating possibly resembling a month-old sliced pan by now.
I would wager that any regular passenger would prefer to travel in a 22k rather than a mk3, more power points, better layout etc. Cost far too much to bring what are fairly ancient stock at this remove up to this spec.

And you have done purchasing for whom? And since when is twenty years "fairly ancient"? The Cravens were twice as old as the Mark 3s before being retired.

What "spec" has emerged that would make rehabilitation of a Mark 3 prohibitively expensive, especially compared to buying brand-new trains? Please, I really need to see this new excuse for IE's profligate purchasing, especially from a Frank Kelly character.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Loco-hauled passenger trains had to go because of the costs and reliability issues

...none of which are named. Meanwhile, loco-hauled passenger trains are still operating all over the rest of the continent, running at speeds that would put IE to shame. Please tell them about their alleged "costs and reliability issues".

Judgement Day

Wiki's MkIII page would seem to indicate that train operators in Britain are quite fond of the mouldy old, life expired carraiges but why let facts get in the way of a good rant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_3

end of the road

Judgement Day wrote: »

Wiki's MkIII page would seem to indicate that train operators in Britain are quite fond of the mouldy old, life expired carraiges but why let facts get in the way of a good rant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_3

i think theirs even some mark 2s still in service in the UK but could be wrong.

CIE

Judgement Day wrote: »

Wiki's MkIII page would seem to indicate that train operators in Britain are quite fond of the mouldy old, life expired carraiges but why let facts get in the way of a good rant

That begs a lot of questions, e.g. defining "life-expired". Can anyone define that phrase without it becoming someone's arbitrary opinion? Even physical age is relative when it comes to the quality of initial construction. As for mould, even brand new stock can be infected by it, but it can be easily killed with sodium hypochlorite.

Now the BR Mark 4s never reached their potential (140 mph on traditional alignments), and IE's CAF knockoff Mark 4s never will get past 100 mph especially due to the government's stilted, interest-conflicted transport policy. British Mark 3s still run at 125 mph daily though, even though they never ran at that speed in Ireland (maybe should have used Class 43s with them instead of freight-haulage-designed JT22CWs and JT42HCWs; just a thought...although Class 43s are a bit heavier per axle than 071s, they're lighter per axle than 201s).

end of the road wrote: »

I think there are even some Mark 2s still in service in the UK but could be wrong

IIRC, there are Mark 2s still in operation on ScotRail's Caledonian sleeper trains.

Davidth88

Interesting thread.

To those who say the prices are too high , I traveled to Killarney from Dublin last week. It cost me 22.50 . It costs me 40 odd euro in petrol ( I know because I do this journey a lot ). There are cheap tkts out there , but you have to search them out

The trains were on time , comfortable , I had seats booked that actually did have my name on them etc ( unusual esp on the Mallow-Killarney leg )

some of the problems I see.

a) Dublin- Cork takes 2 hrs 45 Min . I can now drive this in a little over 2 hours. It should be faster , but that's not possible I imagine because there are few passing points for express trains.
b) There is little joined up thinking, why for example , why does the Stena Ferry arrive in Rosslare arrive 5 mins after the train has departed to Dublin the Irish Ferry's ship is 45mins later , why is there no train connecting to Kerry Airport for the London ( or any ) flights etc , and these were two examples I plucked out of the air with little thought .
c) I have travelled to Croke Park on a number of occasions on the train from Maynooth , there are often extra services , but .... these are never advertised clearly and no staff ever seem to know in advance when these are.
d) Why are there no through services from Cork to Belfast ? I am sure there would be a market for that

Really it seems to me CIE is the worst of all worlds , you have the buses / trains working AGAINST each other not together , you have a people who are not really motivated , and 50 years of under investment.

dowlingm

Studies on UK Mark 3s indicate they are good until about 2035. There might have to be some components replaced before then but since they don't have integral engines they have fewer vibration components. The stainless steel cars in North America seem to go on for ever - there's a surprising amount of 50-60 year old stock, even DMUs, still going having been stripped to the shell several times. Will the newer lighter trains go as long?

I think one of the great failures of UK-Irish relations during the Tiger era is the failure to create a properly interoperable rail network replacing TPWS, CAWS etc. with ETCS. Now there is no money to do it for god knows how long. Rail is about medium-long distance routes and yet if you went and asked IE or NIR to put on a special between Limerick and Belfast for a rugby match they would say "we have no equipment cleared all the way from end to end" either because the DDs aren't cleared into Limerick and the 22000s aren't cleared into Belfast.

As for the 201, at 112 tonnes, it's about the same weight as a P42DC which Amtrak run at 110mph. NJT's new dual modes are 130 tonnes and rated for 100mph in diesel mode, 125 in electric. Is the obsession about "passenger" locos vs freight an Irish/British Isles thing? Over here putting an F40 on a freight or a GP40 on a passenger (with an EGV) isn't the end of the world.

dowlingm

CIE - did the UK operate Class 43 at 125 on the quality of track IE laid before the current UIC60 programme? There was a lot more at issue than merely locomotive choice - the slow speed layout at Portarlington for instance, the penny pinching at Lisduff, Limerick Junction's speed and platform caveats...

CIE

dowlingm wrote: »

CIE - did the UK operate Class 43 at 125 on the quality of track IE laid before the current UIC60 programme? There was a lot more at issue than merely locomotive choice - the slow speed layout at Portarlington for instance, the penny pinching at Lisduff, Limerick Junction's speed and platform caveats...

You're talking a four-decade timeline at least from the HST's development to introduction and following that, its entire service life which continues through the present day. Over the course of that four decades, the furthest that IE has gotten is to use freight engines to barely match the top speeds of the Class 55 Deltics, which came out a half-century ago. Class 43s first came out 37 years ago, remember. What's the excuse, really? because it seems like any excuse can be pulled out of the magician's hat at short notice. It's now 2012.

gsxr1

Davidth88 wrote: »

Interesting thread.

To those who say the prices are too high , I traveled to Killarney from Dublin last week. It cost me 22.50 . It costs me 40 odd euro in petrol ( I know because I do this journey a lot ). There are cheap tkts out there , but you have to search them out

The trains were on time , comfortable , I had seats booked that actually did have my name on them etc ( unusual esp on the Mallow-Killarney leg )

some of the problems I see.

a) Dublin- Cork takes 2 hrs 45 Min . I can now drive this in a little over 2 hours. It should be faster , but that's not possible I imagine because there are few passing points for express trains.
b) There is little joined up thinking, why for example , why does the Stena Ferry arrive in Rosslare arrive 5 mins after the train has departed to Dublin the Irish Ferry's ship is 45mins later , why is there no train connecting to Kerry Airport for the London ( or any ) flights etc , and these were two examples I plucked out of the air with little thought .
c) I have travelled to Croke Park on a number of occasions on the train from Maynooth , there are often extra services , but .... these are never advertised clearly and no staff ever seem to know in advance when these are.
d) Why are there no through services from Cork to Belfast ? I am sure there would be a market for that

Really it seems to me CIE is the worst of all worlds , you have the buses / trains working AGAINST each other not together , you have a people who are not really motivated , and 50 years of under investment.

Yes. I agree with you completely. But I have to ask. Was that ticket you bought one way?
And I would also like to add, that if you brought a child and an adult the car would win hands down.

Maybe better group discounts could be made . Certainly be a step in the right direction.

goingnowhere

gsxr1 wrote: »

Yes. I agree with you completely. But I have to ask. Was that ticket you bought one way?
And I would also like to add, that if you brought a child and an adult the car would win hands down.

19.99 Adult single
9.99 Child single
3 euro fees
32.98 total

Return 62.96

Family return 2 adults + 4 under 16 => 99.00 euro

Davidth88

gsxr1 wrote: »

Yes. I agree with you completely. But I have to ask. Was that ticket you bought one way?
And I would also like to add, that if you brought a child and an adult the car would win hands down.

Maybe better group discounts could be made . Certainly be a step in the right direction.

Agreed , and of course with the family there would be luggage, the tkt was one way

Petrol would be at least 40 euro EACH WAY.

My personal circumstances mean that I often travel alone to meet my family down there who have gone there by car ( or come back on my own )

LXFlyer

Davidth88 wrote: »

some of the problems I see.

Some good questions and I've tried to give you some simple answers to a few of them below:

Davidth88 wrote: »

a) Dublin- Cork takes 2 hrs 45 Min . I can now drive this in a little over 2 hours. It should be faster , but that's not possible I imagine because there are few passing points for express trains.

Dublin-Cork (fastest trains) takes 2 hours 30 mins, with two stops. It has nothing to do with capacity but rather the state of the permanent way (i.e. the track and speed restrictions en route) and the number of station stops en route. A modest investment could bring the fastest time down to 2 hours 15 minutes, and the average down to 2 hours 30 minutes. Remember though if you remove station stops from Dublin/Cork trains, that means that additional stopping services will be needed to serve those stations which will be an additional cost. But this is a pill that will have to be swallowed. Whether every train every hour needs to be fast I'm not so sure - I don't think you'd fill a full train every hour, but perhaps bi-hourly fasts and semi-fasts off-peak and hourly fasts at peak would make more sense.

Davidth88 wrote: »

b) There is little joined up thinking, why for example , why does the Stena Ferry arrive in Rosslare arrive 5 mins after the train has departed to Dublin the Irish Ferry's ship is 45mins later , why is there no train connecting to Kerry Airport for the London ( or any ) flights etc , and these were two examples I plucked out of the air with little thought.

The Rosslare situation is far from straightforward.

I looked at this in considerable detail last year, to the extent of simulating the pathing and trying to see what options existed, and posted on Boards about it. The salient points are reprinted below:

The times of the Rosslare line trains are entirely dictated by the clockface DART timetable which which has half-hourly times to/from Greystones.

The latter means there are only two short windows each hour that a Rosslare service can fit into the DART service on the single track section between Bray and Greystones. Therefore the southbound Rosslare trains are pretty much fixed in what time they can leave Dublin.

The other constraint to be considered is that there are three peak services from Dublin (1637, 1736 and 1838) that such a train has to pass at a passing loop en route from Rosslare to Dublin.

So taking this forward - look at the technical side of this:

Thinking it through - allow 15 minutes to get off the Stena ship (I discount Irish Ferries as it has no UK rail connecting trains) and another 20 minutes to get across to the station. The earliest it could go would be 1835.

If you delay the 1755 till 1835 then it will get to Wexford at 1900 and cross the 1637 from Connolly there in the loop after leaving the station.

The revised 1835 from Rosslare would then reach Enniscorthy at 1925. So far so good, but it would then have to wait in Enniscorthy until 1952 to continue (until the 1736 from Dublin arrives). It would then continue with a short wait at Gorey (to cross the 1838 from Dublin) pretty much in the path of the current 1930 ex-Wexford.

I don't think that is a realistic option given a 25-30 minute wait along the way. You could of course delay the 1736 from Connolly for 15-18 minutes at Gorey and cross there, but do you want the busier train delayed for that long? That would not make much commercial sense I would suggest.

So back to the drawing board. The next option is to leave at 1915 and cross the 1637 from Connolly at Rosslare Strand. So far so good. That would mean then crossing the 1736 from Connolly at Enniscorthy at about 2001 (would require that train waiting for an additional 10 minutes there), and the 1838 from Connolly at Gorey (with no additional delay). Arrival time in Dublin would be somewhere around 2215.

The issue is that while this would accomodate ferry passengers, is it too late for passengers from stations along the line to be getting to Dublin? The current train is timed really to suit customers from Wexford north heading towards Dublin. It'd be a massive gap from the previous train as well, which arrives in Conolly at 1545.

Unless you add an extra train from Rosslare between the 1255 and the revised 1915 , say around 1555, I would think that you could end up discommoding more customers than you are gaining by making the ferry connection for the simple reason that it would probably be too late for the majority of customers along the rest of the line arriving back into Dublin.

And unfortunately adding an additional service on the route is I would think a non-runner given the current economic climate.

You are constrained by the infrastructure - unless brand new loops are installed at different locations (at considerable cost).

As for the Tralee/Farranfore situation - the line is operated using two 3 car ICR sets which connect into Dublin/Cork trains at Mallow. Their timings are relatively fixed given the requirement to pass at Rathmore en route and to be in Mallow to connect. Changing times to connect with flights (whose times change twice a year) would not be that practical.

Where you are operating a single track railway, while you can move times around somewhat, the infrastructure does impose significant constraints on what you can and cannot do.

Davidth88 wrote: »

c) I have travelled to Croke Park on a number of occasions on the train from Maynooth , there are often extra services , but .... these are never advertised clearly and no staff ever seem to know in advance when these are.

They ought to - they are always included in the internal weekly circular which gets issued a week in advance.

foggy_lad

lxflyer wrote: »

Dublin-Cork (fastest trains) takes 2 hours 30 mins, with two stops.

This is only for one train per day in each direction, 17.00 Dublin-Cork and the 06.15 Cork-Dublin

Remove these two trains from the equation and the average time is more like 2hours 50minutes.

sanbrafyffe

i remember travelling from dub to mayo and we were half an hour behind time,,,the driver made it up so they can move these trains if they want,,,,,what i say is do it all the time

corktina

sanbrafyffe wrote: »

i remember travelling from dub to mayo and we were half an hour behind time,,,the driver made it up so they can move these trains if they want,,,,,what i say is do it all the time

At what cost to the trains heading the other way waiting for it at crossing places though?

foggy_lad

sanbrafyffe wrote: »

i remember travelling from dub to mayo and we were half an hour behind time,,,the driver made it up so they can move these trains if they want,,,,,what i say is do it all the time

They can make up time but intermediate stations are then left with a wholly unreliable service with trains arriving 20-40minutes late or even arriving and departing early!

It is not a massive task for railway operators around the world to have their trains pull in and out of stations as they are timetabled but here on this tiny island the national rail operator has this problem with their flagship service. Trains may leave Dublin or Cork on time and may arrive up to ten minutes late at their destination and still be considered on time but the same trains rarely arrive on time at intermediate stations!

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

The times of the Rosslare line trains are entirely dictated by the clockface DART timetable which which has half-hourly times to/from Greystones.

which should have never been extended in the first place as its single track, yes it has great usage but it means services can't be improved on the rosslare line. i'm sure IE could change those times around if they realy wanted to.

lxflyer wrote: »

The latter means there are only two short windows each hour that a Rosslare service can fit into the DART service on the single track section between Bray and Greystones. Therefore the southbound Rosslare trains are pretty much fixed in what time they can leave Dublin.

an idea might be to consider canceling the dart service from greystones if a dublin bound rosslare train is not far behind and canceling the dart to greystones or operating it to bray only if a rosslare bound train is not far behind. can't happen at the moment because of the 3 car situation but if a 6 car could operate on the services where their would be demand this could take up the slack?

lxflyer wrote: »

another 20 minutes to get across to the station.

well if they stopped moving the station every few years. they had it near the port did they not? from what i understand the station at the port was opened in 1989. truth is they wanted to break the ferry connection and moved the station to make sure that would happen.

lxflyer wrote: »

And unfortunately adding an additional service on the route is I would think a non-runner given the current economic climate.

its nothing to do with the climate, its to do with the fact IE don't want this line and putting on more services means that people might actually use the train service. sometimes it feels the WRC is higher up the priority line then us.

lxflyer wrote: »

You are constrained by the infrastructure - unless brand new loops are installed at different locations (at considerable cost).

could have been installed during the good times, but of course that might have made more services possible which IE don't want us to have.
the dart situation and pathing issues are valid points but i believe this could have been sorted if IE realy realy wanted to. i believe the greystones dart extension should never have happened because of the single track line and the fact they can't double it but it has so were stuck with it.

LXFlyer

end of the road wrote: »

which should have never been extended in the first place as its single track, yes it has great usage but it means services can't be improved on the rosslare line. i'm sure IE could change those times around if they realy wanted to.

For years people complained about variable gaps in DART services. Now that there is a basic 15 minute DART frequency and 30 minutes to Greystones you're suggesting breaking that up again?

end of the road wrote: »

an idea might be to consider canceling the dart service from greystones if a dublin bound rosslare train is not far behind and canceling the dart to greystones or operating it to bray only if a rosslare bound train is not far behind. can't happen at the moment because of the 3 car situation but if a 6 car could operate on the services where their would be demand this could take up the slack?

Again if you do that then there will be a 60 minute gap in DART service in at least one direction between Bray and Greystones.

end of the road wrote: »

well if they stopped moving the station every few years. they had it near the port did they not? from what i understand the station at the port was opened in 1989. truth is they wanted to break the ferry connection and moved the station to make sure that would happen.

As I understand it the reason for the station move came from both the customs authorities who wanted a completely secure "shipside" area, and the ferry operators who wanted guaranteed access to/from the ships without it being blocked by the level crossing that was in the middle of the access lane.

end of the road wrote: »

its nothing to do with the climate, its to do with the fact IE don't want this line and putting on more services means that people might actually use the train service. sometimes it feels the WRC is higher up the priority line then us.

The latter could well be the case, but I suspect the costs of putting an extra train on would not be offset by a handful of additional ferry passengers, much and all as I would like to see it.

end of the road wrote: »

could have been installed during the good times, but of course that might have made more services possible which IE don't want us to have.
the dart situation and pathing issues are valid points but i believe this could have been sorted if IE realy realy wanted to. i believe the greystones dart extension should never have happened because of the single track line and the fact they can't double it but it has so were stuck with it.

An extra loop was added at Wexford actually. However all of that pre-dated the introduction of the 15 minute DART timetable which has massive ramifications for all the other services.

Like it or not, the DART is there so there is no point moaning about it. The reality is that there are far more passengers on the DART between Bray and Greystones and on the three peak hour southbound services than would ever be travelling by foot on the ferry. No business in their right mind is going to discommode the majority of their customers to facilitate a small number of people.

As I said in my post above - the only way a connection can happen is if an extra mid-morning Dublin-Rosslare and mid-afternoon Rosslare-Dublin service were to be added to the timetable. In the current circumstances that frankly is not going to happen.

Davidth88

Whoa Lxflyer , that is some answer ! ( thanks very much !!)

On the Cork one , I am a little confused , the reason being about 1 year ago I was travelling from Killarney- Dublin ( via Mallow ) and arrived in Dublin 25 mins EARLY , yeas 25 mins EARLY ..... so it is possible to lose 25 mins between Mallow and Dublin , now this was on a Sunday so it could be the track was empty.

The Rosslare one , wow , you lost me totally ( Il have to sit down and sketch it out when I am feeling bored ). But are you essentially saying that because of restrictions ( ie single track ) between Bray and Greystones this is why the train cannot accomodate the Ship passengers ? , Couldn't there be a train that terminates at Greystones from Rosslare to connect with the Dart ?

On the Kerry Airport one , I suppose that is too difficult , it's a shame because this is I think the only airport in Ireland with a station within walking distance .

What about the through trains Cork- Belfast ?