Gardai carrying Guns

An0n

it wud b lik hot fuzz in real lyf lik

great gas

Witcher

Gary Busey wrote: »

Hands guns are for killing people rifles are for game etc.

Are you aware there are actually target shooting disciplines using pistols?

Turner

Found this on youtube, and this is only 50 miles or so up the country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrtKwoJ1nzg

Given the right situation in Dublin or Limerick and this could easilly happen to unarmed Gardai.

WilcoOut

mental

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=8xM_PiWZN-E&NR=1

catastrophy

Gary Busey wrote: »

This one shot himself with his service firearm.

http://www.herald.ie/news/garda-who-shot-himself-in-the-head-fights-for-life-3114673.html

Despicable comment tbh.

Gary Busey

catastrophy wrote: »

Despicable comment tbh.

I appoligise if I have offended you with this comment and I will remove it. That was not my intension. The point is we dont need more guns.

catastrophy

Gary Busey wrote: »

I appoligise if I have ffended you with this comment and I will remove it. That was not my intension. The point is we dont need more guns.

Thats fair enough.

monument

Eru wrote: »

The very simple reality here is that tonight at 4am anyone with a firearm can reap absolute havoc and kill dozens if not hundreds of people depending on location. The chances of an armed Garda being close to the scene is remote, even in Dublin its not a common event for an armed officer to be in a district at 4am. RSU? theres what maybe 4 or 5 of them in the country? ERU for Dublin? Dublin's a bloody big place and it takes time to get them mobile. Detectives? Only some carry a firearm and dont work 24/7 anyway.

Fixing this and increasing the amount of armed officers so there is good cover 24/7 seems like a far better idea than arming all officers.

Turner wrote: »

Found this on youtube, and this is only 50 miles or so up the country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrtKwoJ1nzg

Given the right situation in Dublin or Limerick and this could easilly happen to unarmed Gardai.

So, we need PSNI-style armoured vans too?

redsurfer wrote: »

If you call 999 and look for help because it is an armed incident, we will respond. But who do you want to arrive to help you?
A: Gardai that arrive who are armed and able to deal with it ?
or
B: Gardai who will be unarmed and unable to defend themselves or protect you ?

We will do our job but allow us to defend ourselves and the public.

C: A well trained/armed unit or well trained/armed officers -- the kind of training/arming you can't give everybody.

Eru wrote: »

Thats all well and good if cops have options. People seem to put Gardai in the same position as a random person, we cannot simple decide to ignore a crime. hes committing an armed robbery, we act. Its that simple.

Can members of the public who can't ignore crime also have guns?

IRLConor

Gary Busey wrote: »

Hands guns are for killing people rifles are for game etc.

Bullshit. That's an incredibly small-minded and simplistic view of the world. Maybe some examples will make it clearer for you:

This handgun is for shooting targets:



This rifle is for killing people:



This handgun is used for both target shooting and killing people:



See? It's complicated. You can't easily draw a line and say "these firearms over here are fine for civilian use and those ones over there are sooper-dooper dangerous". It's why firearms laws in every country are complicated and often (like ours) rely on a considerable amount of good judgement from the licensing authorities.

Gary Busey wrote: »

Also, look at america.......do you want to live with the amount of mistakes police make over there.

You're assuming that the Gardai would behave like US cops. There's a world of difference culturally between the Gardai and most US police forces. Not just in their approach to confrontations, but in their general attitude towards policing.

At the risk of sounding like an economist or politician, Ireland is not the USA.

Gary Busey wrote: »

Basically my point is they cause more harm than they do good.

If you can define a useful, measurable yardstick by which "harm" and "good" can be defined in that context then we can have a reasonable discussion around that assertion.

Gary Busey wrote: »

How many garda have blost their lives in the last 5 years due to not being armed? Answer that question with some factual evidence related directly to the question.;)

That's impossible to answer with solid factual evidence without use of a time machine and a box full of guns. You're the one making unfounded assertions, so you're the one who needs to turn up with some factual evidence.

IRLConor

monument wrote: »

Can members of the public who can't ignore crime also have guns?

Of course!

On the other hand, if they use them against criminals they're likely to end up in seriously hot water!

Rawhead

If I'm not mistaken, the last 3 Gardai to be killed in firearms related incidents have all been killed with official issue weapons.
Not taking a stance just making a point of fact.
A Sgt was killed by a ricochet from a ERU member and the other two appear to have been self inflicted.

Turner

Two shooting incidents in the one Garda District over night.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-arrested-after-dublin-shooting-560186.html

monument

Turner wrote: »

Two shooting incidents in the one Garda District over night.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-arrested-after-dublin-shooting-560186.html

It was in the same estate according to the article.

Turner

monument wrote: »

It was in the same estate according to the article.

True.

God help any unarmed Gardai that happened to come across this in progress.

What would the people here who are against Gardai having guns recommend they do?

Run?

Witcher

Turner wrote: »

True.

God help any unarmed Gardai that happened to come across this in progress.

What would the people here who are against Gardai having guns recommend they do?

Run?

How often does a Garda actually come face to face with an armed man?

I'm indifferent to arming the Gardai really with a slight leaning towards arming them. But if they don't encounter regular situations where people pull a gun on them its a waste of time and money arming every Garda on the street.

deadwood

Blay wrote: »

How often does a Garda actually come face to face with an armed man?

A bit more often than your average soldier, but nobody minds them carrying guns on our streets.

Witcher

deadwood wrote: »

A bit more often than your average soldier, but nobody minds them carrying guns on our streets.

Yeah...a rifle is generally a necessary piece of equipment for a soldier and they're not out patrolling the streets so they aren't going to be engaging with armed people.

I'm not against the Gardai having them but there is a considerable cost in arming and training thousands of people and if the guards aren't encountering situations where they are needed then there is no need for them to be carrying a gun.

monument

Turner wrote: »

True.

God help any unarmed Gardai that happened to come across this in progress.

What would the people here who are against Gardai having guns recommend they do?

Run?

What ever is needed - judge it case by case. If needed hold back from a shooting call until the armed response arrives. Even with forces which have everybody armed officers sometimes have to hold back for a tactical unit.

And as I said I'd put resources into having more highly trained and armed units / officers, rather than spending it on arming everybody.

Manic Moran

As for fully automatic firearms, there are none legally in civilian hands

Actually, I believe that is not true, on two technicalities.

1) I understand that there are a very few (we're talking under a dozen here) licensed full-auto firearms held by private citizens, one being a Glock 17C. The distinction being between a "Restricted" weapon, such as an assault rifle listed in SI 21 (2008), and a "prohibited weapon" in the Firearms Act, which as I read it is chemical weapons.

2) The technical definition of civilian. But that's another argument, depending on which dictionary edition you happen to be reading. I'm a traditionalist.

This is, of course, splitting hairs, and doesn't affect the thrust of your argument.

NTM

bpb101

Although it is rare that a garda would ever need a gun , You would never know.
I Remember the innocent of a few years ago where a driver drove his car at a gardí and into a wall , killing the garda.
If he was armed , this wouldn't have happened.

Although this is rare, i believe they should be armed


Edit : link http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-229816328.html
edit 2: guy got 6 years http://www.thejournal.ie/teen-sentenced-to-six-years-for-causing-gardas-death-83290-Feb2011/

FGR

Not that I'd agree with Micheal Graham often but -

On the Right Hook he referred to an officer who saved his own life by shooting a madman who was driving directly at him.

I immediately thought of Garda McLoughlin. Rip.

K.Flyer

bpb101 wrote: »

Guy got 6 years http://www.thejournal.ie/teen-sentenced-to-six-years-for-causing-gardas-death-83290-Feb2011/

I know I am slightly off topic here but, ONLY six years !!
7 years for causing the death of a Garda, why is 1 suspended?
5 years for endangering the lives of two other Garda.
3 years for stealing a car.
3 years for other burglary and criminal charges.
According to my calculator that equals 17 years. At most he will do 3 1/2 - 4 years.
They have to get rid of this concurrent Bulls**t and make them serve their time for what they have done wrong.
What an insult to the family and collegues of the Garda that was killed.

IRLConor

Manic Moran wrote: »

1) I understand that there are a very few (we're talking under a dozen here) licensed full-auto firearms held by private citizens, one being a Glock 17C. The distinction being between a "Restricted" weapon, such as an assault rifle listed in SI 21 (2008), and a "prohibited weapon" in the Firearms Act, which as I read it is chemical weapons.

Full auto guns are prohibited EU-wide and to the best of my knowledge Ireland has implemented that directive.

I've heard about a Glock 18 (I presume you meant 18 rather than the more conventional 17 of which there are indeed several?) but as I understand it that was some comical cock up by the supplier and the firearm in question didn't spend very long in the hands of the owner who, if I'm told correctly, ordered a 17 and got an 18.

If other people legally have full auto stuff they're keeping it very, very quiet.

Manic Moran wrote: »

2) The technical definition of civilian. But that's another argument, depending on which dictionary edition you happen to be reading. I'm a traditionalist.

Fair point.

Zambia

With respect folks the conversation appears to be that firearms are required because Criminals have Firearms.

Lets not forget the common threat of Knives, baseball bats, Trolley Handles and other equally lethal weapons if used with intent.

http://www.herald.ie/news/garda-stabbed-in-face-on-street-2608558.html

The officer was injured as he took on the suspect, who was wielding a broken bottle, at Main Street, Raheny.

Minutes earlier the thug had stabbed another man, out walking with his partner and child, in an unprovoked attack at St Anne's Park.

The incident took place in daylight, at 6.30pm yesterday. The man who carried out the attack was aged in his late 20s.

A short time later a Garda approached a man on nearby Main Street and was also attacked. He received injuries to his eye and was taken to Beaumont Hospital but later released.

The fact is the Garda should have the option of going one level of force above the offender.

bpb101

K.Flyer wrote: »

I know I am slightly off topic here but, ONLY six years !!
7 years for causing the death of a Garda, why is 1 suspended?
5 years for endangering the lives of two other Garda.
3 years for stealing a car.
3 years for other burglary and criminal charges.
According to my calculator that equals 17 years. At most he will do 3 1/2 - 4 years.
They have to get rid of this concurrent Bulls**t and make them serve their time for what they have done wrong.
What an insult to the family and collegues of the Garda that was killed.

in America the fella would be publicly hanged in Washington for all to see him. To show that you dont kill a cop and get away with it.

(obliviously exaggerated but through)


EDIT : might have got all them sentences but he serves them altogether

war_child

bpb101 wrote: »

Although it is rare that a garda would ever need a gun , You would never know.
I Remember the innocent of a few years ago where a driver drove his car at a gardí and into a wall , killing the garda.
If he was armed , this wouldn't have happened.

Although this is rare, i believe they should be armed


Edit : link http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-229816328.html
edit 2: guy got 6 years http://www.thejournal.ie/teen-sentenced-to-six-years-for-causing-gardas-death-83290-Feb2011/

This has to be one of the most stupid non sensical comments that has ever graced boards.

How on earth can you quantify that if the Gaurd was armed he wouldnt have been killed. Shooting at a car doesnt mean its going to stop.

And even if he had by some miracle actually killed the driver of the car the vehicle would have then become more dangerous as it had no one controlling it.

In relation to the soldier v guard debate , on the whole all soldiers are trained to use deadly force , the gardai are not , i honestly think this whole thread is ridiculous the fact that we dont have armed guards patrolling our streets our neighbourhood our counties is the main reason i stay in this country, arming the police is just far to American and with all honesty knowing some guards in this country i personally wouldnt arm them.

pah

war_child wrote: »

In relation to the soldier v guard debate , on the whole all soldiers are trained to use deadly force , the gardai are not

All armed Gardaí are.

war_child wrote: »

i honestly think this whole thread is ridiculous the fact that we dont have armed guards patrolling our streets our neighbourhood our counties is the main reason i stay in this country, arming the police is just far to American and with all honesty knowing some guards in this country i personally wouldnt arm them.

Why is it so American??

I really don't get this. It gives the impression that your only frame of reference is TV & Movies.

Why isn't arming all police in this country too Canadian?, too Italian?, too French? too insert any nationality here bar the uk?


Other arguments in this thread about Gardaí on a power trip are farcical to say the least. The suggestion that a member(and I know plenty of them) who is on one, would suddenly start pulling his gun out and waving it around??? GTFO. He's still gonna be c**t and give you a ticket/give you a lecture/arrest you for being pissed...

How many threads are started here complaing that The Guard stopped me and I was a bit uncooperative so he pulled his ASP out and started twirling it around, with his pepper spray in the other hand pointed at my face??

The suggestion that members, given guns would start acting like cowboys is ludicrous. Endof.

In 6 years I have drawn my baton once, not used it and I haven't used my pepper spray yet. I think I've just been lucky tbh as I have had colleagues assaulted, injured, stabbed, hospitalised... A different shift or duty at the time and it could have been me.

I'd like to think that if I was in a situation where a firearm was pointed at me that I had the option of protecting myself, my colleagues and the public by taking action and not by running away.

Manic Moran

IRLConor wrote: »

Full auto guns are prohibited EU-wide and to the best of my knowledge Ireland has implemented that directive.

There's an 'opt-out' clause in Article 6 which merely requires that "this is not contrary to public security or public order". It doesn't state what the 'special circumstances' are, and appears to leave it at the discretion of the member State. The Czech republic is an example, the default position is that automatic weapons are not authorised, but exemptions can be granted by the police. Finland, similarly, categorises them as 'Especially Dangerous Weapons", and will only grant permits on a rare basis.

I suspect that Greece may be an interesting example. Due to the proximity with Turkey, private posession and acquisition of automatic weapons (Including belt-fed machineguns!) in Crete is common on the theory that it helps public security for the lads to be able to effect a defence until the Greek military shows up.

Then again, it's not so much a matter of the law saying as much in writing as Crete is still subject to the Greek law restricting firearms, but it is consciously not enforced.

NTM

Eru

war_child wrote: »

This has to be one of the most stupid non sensical comments that has ever graced boards.

How on earth can you quantify that if the Gaurd was armed he wouldnt have been killed. Shooting at a car doesnt mean its going to stop.

And even if he had by some miracle actually killed the driver of the car the vehicle would have then become more dangerous as it had no one controlling it.

In relation to the soldier v guard debate , on the whole all soldiers are trained to use deadly force , the gardai are not , i honestly think this whole thread is ridiculous the fact that we dont have armed guards patrolling our streets our neighbourhood our counties is the main reason i stay in this country, arming the police is just far to American and with all honesty knowing some guards in this country i personally wouldnt arm them.

What a pathetic post.

Really, I couldn't even be bothered pointing out the glaring holes in it so I will leave it to the many others that surely will.

deadwood

Eru wrote: »

What a pathetic post.

Really, I couldn't even be bothered pointing out the glaring holes in it so I will leave it to the many others that surely will.

The clue might be in the name, there.