Gardai carrying Guns

Zambia

Rest assured they dont just pop out of the Holster. (I hope)

Touch a Police Officers firearm or kick a police dog.

You reflect on these actions later in hospital, goal or worse.

480905

If they can't afford to replace their fleet , they'll hardly be able to afford to arm and train 10,000 odd gardai. The Sig mentioned in previous posts is on average €700, working out at 7 mil just to buy the weapons . Not happening I wouldn't say. Any members have an opinion on this.....

Witcher

480905 wrote: »

If they can't afford to replace their fleet , they'll hardly be able to afford to arm and train 10,000 odd gardai. The Sig mentioned in previous posts is on average €700, working out at 7 mil just to buy the weapons . Not happening I wouldn't say. Any members have an opinion on this.....

The unit cost would be far below that if there were 14000 of them being bought. When the army changed to the USP, you can bet they didn't pay the market rate at the time. I believe police departments in the US get their service pistols for 1/2 or 3/4 price depending on the manufacturer and get 1 in every 10 free and they wouldnt be buying 14000 of them at once. The biggest factor would be the training.

Locust

It would be more like 6000 or 7000 Gardai. Glock seems to be the most widely used (globally), cost effective and easiest to use/train with (seriously after a year or so of no training you could still pick it up and score hits on target at a reasonable range). Way cheaper and handier than SIG. If routine Gardai were armed - it would certainly bring the level of training/discipline up a notch with other EU counterparts.

IRLConor

Locust wrote: »

Glock seems to be the most widely used (globally), cost effective and easiest to use/train with (seriously after a year or so of no training you could still pick it up and score hits on target at a reasonable range). Way cheaper and handier than SIG.

I doubt they'd switch handgun providers. They're not going to throw out/sell the SIGs and they wouldn't want two sets of spares, two sets of training programmes, etc. The real costs in expanding the use of guns by the Gardai would be in training, ammunition and spare parts not the initial purchase price of the firearms themselves. You only buy the gun once but you keep spending on parts, ammo and training.

The additional costs due to diversion of manpower into training plus increased ammunition expenditure would probably be enough to scupper wider arming of the force even ignoring the initial purchase price for the extra pistols they'd need to buy.

kub

480905 wrote: »

If they can't afford to replace their fleet , they'll hardly be able to afford to arm and train 10,000 odd gardai. The Sig mentioned in previous posts is on average €700, working out at 7 mil just to buy the weapons . Not happening I wouldn't say. Any members have an opinion on this.....

Lets touch reality here lads, the latest talk of another batch of Garda stations to be shut down and as mentioned above the fleet issues, its not going to happen.

The RSU's around the country are there for a reason. Also the fact that crime in general is down and that we are jumping through the IMF/ECB hoops.

goldie fish

Locust wrote: »

It would be more like 6000 or 7000 Gardai. Glock seems to be the most widely used (globally), cost effective and easiest to use/train with (seriously after a year or so of no training you could still pick it up and score hits on target at a reasonable range). Way cheaper and handier than SIG. If routine Gardai were armed - it would certainly bring the level of training/discipline up a notch with other EU counterparts.

Anyone who thinks a glock is a suitable sidearm has never fired one.
Walther P99 has been in service with the regular units for some years and all are happy with them. Firearms training with police forces is 10% target shooting, 90% how to not need to draw it. It isn't for shooting targets police have them.

MEMBER12

Just to touch on the training issue, if the Gardai were to purchase x thousand firearms, the cost would be much lower that the commercial rate, plus training would be free for a number of instructors. This is how it worked for the asp and pepper spray. However due to the financial times we are in it will most likely not happen. This is why I believe that Gardai would front up the money for their own weapons, with maybe a tax refund at a later date?

Manic Moran

Zambia wrote: »

Rest assured they dont just pop out of the Holster. (I hope)

Depends on the holster. A Level IV such as http://www.policehq.com/Products/SF-6070 is designed for a specific pistol and has a number of different requirements to get the pistol out. For example, this particular holster requires that once the hand is on the pistol's grip in preparation to draw, the thumb is rocked back and forward, the middile finger is pressing down on a release tab, and the pistol must be rocked a certain way in order to be released. Sounds more complicated than it is, the draw is still quite fast when you're practiced, but if you don't know how the holster works, you can be spending a minute or two trying to figure it out even if the cop isn't beating on you to keep you away from it. Of course, if the detectives are using a Level 1 holster which keeps the gun in by combination of friction and gravity alone, that's a different matter.

Anyone who thinks a glock is a suitable sidearm has never fired one.

Plenty of forces use them. I don't like them personally, but I see nothing wrong with them on the practical side.

NTM

MEMBER12

Well the way things are we will have to wait till there is a massive incident here before the police are armed.

Motorist

I find around 40% of Gardai to be completely unprofessional when manning standard checkpoints. No thanks, I dont want them routinely carrying firearms too.

Witcher

MEMBER12 wrote: »

Well the way things are we will have to wait till there is a massive incident here before the police are armed.

One incident wouldn't exactly be a good case for giving a firearm to 14000 people.

MEMBER12

I agree with you however, we need to talk about it now while everyone is calm rather then in the heat of the moment. Drugs are being shipped into Ireland all the time, and firearms as a bonus. It will eventually be seen as a must have for every up and coming scumbag. then what do we do.

savagecabbages

I think a more practical (more acceptable anyway...) way to tackle the culture of criminals arming themselves would be to at least properly sentence those caught in possession of firearms, and ramp up massively the mandatory punishment for any gun related crime.

Gardai are catching these criminals, and they aren't being sufficiently punished by the courts.

Witcher

savagecabbages wrote: »

I think a more practical (more acceptable anyway...) way to tackle the culture of criminals arming themselves would be to at least properly sentence those caught in possession of firearms, and ramp up massively the mandatory punishment for any gun related crime.

Gardai are catching these criminals, and they aren't being sufficiently punished by the courts.

The minimum sentence just for having a bullet with intent to endanger life is 10 years upon conviction and people still do it.

The DOJ tactic when dealing with gun crime is to crack down on people holding them legally:pac:

MEMBER12

You don't even get 10 years for killing a Garda? Judges are a law onto themselves. I don't think it will ever change, solicitors will not let it happen.

Zambia

Manic Moran wrote: »

Of course, if the detectives are using a Level 1 holster which keeps the gun in by combination of friction and gravity alone, that's a different matter.

Plenty of forces use them. I don't like them personally, but I see nothing wrong with them on the practical side.

NTM

Logic would dictate that any widespread issue would be accompanied by L3 Rigs.

Manic Moran

Blay wrote: »

One incident wouldn't exactly be a good case for giving a firearm to 14000 people.

Would be if you were the number 14001 who ended up being the trigger event to give to the other 14,000.

kub

MEMBER12 wrote: »

You don't even get 10 years for killing a Garda? Judges are a law onto themselves. I don't think it will ever change, solicitors will not let it happen.

You are correct, it wouldn't happen, these scum bags are customers of their solicitors. So when a client is locked up for 10 years its not very good for Mr Solicitor's or Mr Barrister's bank balance. Especially when the said scum bag could be left out after a few months to carry on doing what he does best.

Its good for business all round.

MEMBER12

It's all about the money,I agree 100%. Imagine if the money seized by the Gardai was put back into the Gardai. That would piss off all the scumbags.

kub

MEMBER12 wrote: »

It's all about the money,I agree 100%. Imagine if the money seized by the Gardai was put back into the Gardai. That would piss off all the scumbags.

That is the way it should be, I for one grin every time I see the RSU BMW X5 which was seized by CAB from that nice family in Limerick, while it passes me by decorated in Garda livery.

MEMBER12

There should be more of this, It is what pisses off the scum the most. I'm just watching the news, and they are saying how crystal meth and crack are taking off in Ireland. They are now being made in Ireland, and how cheap they are, and how aggressive it makes people. Watch the news later on today. These are the drugs that cause the most problems in the states. The most dangerous to the user and to the police there. When it takes hold here, and I believe it will, it will cause untold problems to the understaffed under-equipped Gardai. Drug users going ape **** with increased strength. I can't believe it is now been made in Ireland. Such a sad turn of events.

dutopia

I'm still not sure about this idea, it's something that requires a lot of thought as it would change the face of policing in Ireland. I do agree that the statement "If the guards carried guns the criminals will start, too" is complete crap. Most criminals these days intent on committing serious crimes such as robbery or those in gangs have firearms.

At least, shouldn't the guards have tasers?

dutopia

kub wrote: »

That is the way it should be, I for one grin every time I see the RSU BMW X5 which was seized by CAB from that nice family in Limerick, while it passes me by decorated in Garda livery.

Haha I like this. The criminal assets bureau money paying for policing!

MEMBER12

I was just looking up Ice/Crystel Meth on Youtube. Look at the news today on RTE, telling everyone how cheap and easy it is to make and sell. They are saying it is ten times cheaper than Heroin, and a hundred times more addictive.Users are so paranoid, aggressive, not sure now we should go half way for the tazer. I really think a firearm is the way to go. I was listening to a doctor describe this Ice from Australia, and let me tell ya the stuff he was saying was scary. He said it took 6 people to hold down one guy who was around 7 stone. This guy was so violent. Now let's imagine a worst case scenario, imagine he had a knife running at a Garda? I hate that this has come to Ireland, our country is starting to change for the worst!

kub

dutopia wrote: »

Haha I like this. The criminal assets bureau money paying for policing!

I thought that X5 has bullet proof glass or other such novelties necessary for that particular pharamacutical distribution business. Anyway, what better use for it. Probably worth more to AGS than anyone else.

MEMBER12

My point is that we should have this conversation now in the cold light of day, rather than in the heat of the moment after someone has been shot, a Garda or a member of the public. Watch RTE today, check out the segment on Ice/Crystel Meth? Then take 5 minutes and look it up on youtube. This is probably the most dangerous drug in the world. It is here in Dublin now, cheaper than any other drug,and highly addictive. How can unarmed Gardai deal with these people now, it will be the unarmed member, probably alone that will come up against these users. Don't think that the public will help when a Garda is getting attacked it does not happen, I'm speaking from experience. That Garda is on his own till backup arrives.Let's figure this out now before it becomes an epidemic.

Witcher

When there's a need for Gardai to be issued firearms they'll get them, at the moment.there is no need, there's no point issuing firearms if Gardai are not encountering situations which demand them. When detectives, RSU's and the ERU are being called out daily and having to discharge their firearms...then..there will be a need to arm regular Gardai.

ladybird.12

war_child wrote: »

I have to say with all honesty i dread the idea of all guards being armed ....most cant deal with the small amount of beat power they have and on occasion cant resist from givin someone a good kickin just coz they didnt get laid lastnight ...arming guards is NOT an option ...and i would strongly protest against this if it ever arose in Ireland ..

Please Grow-UP. Im sure you would be the first to complain if they didnt respond to a call from you in time !

MEMBER12

There is a need, more armed gangs, more violent criminals, the IRA at it again, Ice/Crystel Meth is here. Are you just waiting for another Anthony Cambell, and I'm not trying to be smart here. Let us put it out there, have a vote both within the Gardai and the Dail. Talk about it now before some incident happens? Guns are coming in with drugs all the time. How long before we have turf wars, the IRA are trying to take a cut. Do you think these drug gangs are gonna roll over.