Gardai carrying Guns

Zambia

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/irishsun/irishfeatures/4245972/Regional-Support-Unit-is-a-force-to-be-reckoned-with.html

I did come across this very impressive reading and nice pics

FGR

Nice find, Zambia. That's the kind of PR that's needed.

K.Flyer

redsurfer wrote: »

If you call 999 and look for help because it is an armed incident, we will respond. But who do you want to arrive to help you?
A: Gardai that arrive who are armed and able to deal with it ?
or
B: Gardai who will be unarmed and unable to defend themselves or protect you ?

We will do our job but allow us to defend ourselves and the public.

I want someone who is capable and equiped to deal with the given situation.
In exactly the same way as the General Public would expect any emergency service to arrive i.e. properly trained and equiped, and if that means armed, yes by all means.
I can understand that not every member of the force will want to or be allowed to carry a firearm, but I believe we need to take a look at the European models as an example, where even the cash in transit operatives are armed and trained to be prepared to use their weapons.
Everyone thinks because a Garda is armed he is trained to kill, my understanding is that they are trained to only use lethal force if there is a clear and imminent danger to their or a member of the publics life, but firstly to try to take a shot to disarm the assailant.
For too long An Garda have been trying to do their job with very limited resources and one hand tied behind their back. It time for it to be brought into the 21st century with a solid infrastructure to deal with todays criminality.
We are not looking for RoboCop but Men and Women who are allowed to be properly equiped for the hazards and situations that face them today.
But.. this will all be for nothing if we do not have a judicial system with some backbone to hand out tougher sentences to back up the hard work and effort from the force.

Polymers

cena wrote: »

Why do the guards not carry guns with at all times. Are we the only country were the law don't carry a gun

As far as I know, the police in the UK do not, and police in Norway carry them in the glove compartment and have to unlock them if necessary. The age-old argument of "if the Garda carry guns, the criminals will get bigger ones" won't stand up any more. Criminals are carrying bigger and more dangerous guns and are getting more brazen by the day. I am 100% in favour of arming them to the teeth. Respect for authority will soon follow. People seem to be mixing up respect and fear.

Qualitymark

It's well worth reading Guardians of the Peace, Conor Brady's history of An Garda Síochána, particularly the chapter O'Duffy Leads the Guards, which deals with the setting up of an unarmed force that would draw its legitimacy from its place in the community and its service of the people.

This was at a time when the preceding six years (1916-22) had seen a reversion to gun power, with the only power, in classic Maoist terms, coming from the barrel of a gun.

How many gardaí were killed during the Civil War?



































One.

FGR

K.Flyer wrote: »

I want someone who is capable and equiped to deal with the given situation.my understanding is that they are trained to only use lethal force if there is a clear and imminent danger to their or a member of the publics life, but firstly to try to take a shot to disarm the assailant.

When you're asked to fire your weapon you don't aim for the arm or leg. You aim for the largest part of the body (midsection) which will guarantee a hit. No one is trained to kill specifically but every time a Garda, or Soldier, fires his/her weapon they know there's a high probability that the target may die.

Like a baton, pepper spray, taser or any other weapon - each option is given consideration for the situation which is deemed appropriate. The firearm wouldn't be pulled out unless there was a clear and present danger to the officer's life or the general public around him/her.

kub

I am wondering and considering the amount of armed raids etc, over the last few days in Dublin. Are there RSU units actually in Dublin? I am just considering that the ERU are based there anyway, so perhaps they are detterent enough.

Just that I for one have not noticed any RSU vehicles patrolling the streets of our capital. I am also convinced that the sight of the RSU vehicles are enough to make the criminals think otherwise in the provincial cities and towns.

Sorry if I am crossing a line here, please disregard if necessary.

K.Flyer

FGR wrote: »

K.Flyer wrote: »

I want someone who is capable and equiped to deal with the given situation.my understanding is that they are trained to only use lethal force if there is a clear and imminent danger to their or a member of the publics life, but firstly to try to take a shot to disarm the assailant.

When you're asked to fire your weapon you don't aim for the arm or leg. You aim for the largest part of the body (midsection) which will guarantee a hit. No one is trained to kill specifically but every time a Garda, or Soldier, fires his/her weapon they know there's a high probability that the target may die.

Like a baton, pepper spray, taser or any other weapon - each option is given consideration for the situation which is deemed appropriate. The firearm wouldn't be pulled out unless there was a clear and present danger to the officer's life or the general public around him/her.

Thanks for the clarification on that point, and for that reason it is quite understandable that not all Garda will want to carry arms.
Its very easy for Joe Public to kick and scream ... shoot them all, but they are not the ones holding the gun and pulling the trigger.

Qualitymark

K.Flyer wrote: »

Its very easy for Joe Public to kick and scream ...

"Joe Public" is the people from whom the Gardaí get their assent to do their job. A garda's legitimacy comes from the public. This attitude of contempt is not appropriate.

K.Flyer

Qualitymark wrote: »

This attitude of contempt is not appropriate.

If you feel that I am displaying an attitude of contempt, I apologise, thats not my intention. Maybe you missunderstood me. I appreciate that people are split over arming the Garda, personally I have no problem with them being armed and able to protect themselves and others.

AnglicanTroll

Polymers wrote: »

As far as I know, the police in the UK do not, and police in Norway carry them in the glove compartment and have to unlock them if necessary. The age-old argument of "if the Garda carry guns, the criminals will get bigger ones" won't stand up any more. Criminals are carrying bigger and more dangerous guns and are getting more brazen by the day. I am 100% in favour of arming them to the teeth. Respect for authority will soon follow. People seem to be mixing up respect and fear.

couldn't agree more, truer words were never spoken

Poccington

Markcheese wrote: »

I'd rather it be a choice thing ... Ie. The garda has chosen to do fire-arm training and the force has decided this guy is suitable to carry fire arms as part of the job .... Leaving most Gardai not to have to worry about guns for 99.9 % of the job....

On a slightly related topic... Is there a gost estate somewhere in the middle of no-where( near templemore ???) that could be bought for buttons and converted to an urban firearms training ground ... Would have to be cheaper than building one . :•)

If a person is chosen to be a member of AGS and makes it through all their training, they're now considered to be capable enough to implement the law and protect the public. They should already be considered capable enough to handle a firearm once they make it through training.

Why build a new range? The Defence Forces has ranges and training areas across the country, which AGS already use.

Mr Simpson

kub wrote: »

I am wondering and considering the amount of armed raids etc, over the last few days in Dublin. Are there RSU units actually in Dublin? I am just considering that the ERU are based there anyway, so perhaps they are detterent enough.

Just that I for one have not noticed any RSU vehicles patrolling the streets of our capital. I am also convinced that the sight of the RSU vehicles are enough to make the criminals think otherwise in the provincial cities and towns.

Sorry if I am crossing a line here, please disregard if necessary.

There are no RSU units in Dublin.

Manic Moran

Qualitymark wrote: »

It's well worth reading Guardians of the Peace, Conor Brady's history of An Garda Síochána, particularly the chapter O'Duffy Leads the Guards, which deals with the setting up of an unarmed force that would draw its legitimacy from its place in the community and its service of the people.

If memory serves correctly, this was also a time where a good portion of the Irish population had firearms of their own, and didn't necessarily need the services of the State for their own protection against armed personnel. If you didn't have a gun, your neighbour might have. If a member of the constabulary really needed a gun back then, there was often a chance that they could ask a nearby gentleman to borrow theirs. (This was not unusual in the UK particularly at the turn of the 20th century). The prohibition on the general public carrying firearms on a daily basis is less than a century old, and the prohibition on the ownership of weapons at the home useful for self defence (eg rifles, pistols) only came about fifty years ago. The entire environment with respect to Ireland and firearms has reversed almost entirely in a little over a hundred years: The island used to be world famous for its shooting culture.

I also submit that if people today think that the police force's legitimacy is reliant upon the fact that they are unarmed, then I suggest that either they believe the police are untrustworthy not to abuse their position which is a far more serious problem than just guns, or that the police are seriously misunderstanding what constitutes a good relationship with the public, and are probably off to a bad start there anyway.

NTM

kub

mmcn90 wrote: »

There are no RSU units in Dublin.

That is interesting how over last weekend there was what 8? armed raids in Dublin.
I know that ERU are based there and am aware of the level of armed detectives etc, on patrol.
Is it high time that RSU were introduced to the streets of Dublin? I as a law abiding citizen certainly like seeing them around. The very vehicles they drive suggest 'we take no sh**'.
I am just guessing here but, I have my doubts as to the IQ of some of these criminals and have a hunch that these RSU vehicles would put a shiver up their spines and perhaps make them think twice.
Overall it is interesting, that level of armed raids in one city over those 5 days and none anywhere else and that city does not have RSU.
Would it work to perhaps mark up the ERU fleet and send those lads out on the beat?

Mr Simpson

TBH as low as the IQ of these criminals is, they are well aware of the armed response of the Gardai. I would put money on the fact that the ERU rarely respond to armed robberies in Dublin, it would be detectives (unless its a pre-planned operation). I don't think this scares criminals at all.

After all, why would they be scared. They're well aware that an armed response more than likely won't turn up on time, whether it be RSU, ERU or detectives.

The only thing that my scare them (IMHO) is the thought that, every guard (or the majority) on patrol is carrying a weapon, and is trained to respond, so they are more likely to end up in a situation were they could be caught.

Bear in mind, this is purely a layman's view of the situation.

Morpheus

the real question is, do the majority of gardai want the responsibility involved in carrying firearms, do they believe it will make their jobs any easier. would they feel more or less safer on the streets than in being unarmed and would they feel the necessity to wear ballistic armour (not just stab vests) as they may be raising the stakes against crims who previously would think twice about shooting an unarmed garda?

kub

kub wrote: »

That is interesting how over last weekend there was what 8? armed raids in Dublin.
I know that ERU are based there and am aware of the level of armed detectives etc, on patrol.
Is it high time that RSU were introduced to the streets of Dublin? I as a law abiding citizen certainly like seeing them around. The very vehicles they drive suggest 'we take no sh**'.
I am just guessing here but, I have my doubts as to the IQ of some of these criminals and have a hunch that these RSU vehicles would put a shiver up their spines and perhaps make them think twice.
Overall it is interesting, that level of armed raids in one city over those 5 days and none anywhere else and that city does not have RSU.
Would it work to perhaps mark up the ERU fleet and send those lads out on the beat?

why would RSU scare these criminals when they know that dublin is full of armed detectives? district detective units, SDU, OCU, ERU, what more could you possibly want in dublin??

the reason RSU units exists is because the country dont have the armed units that are available in Dublin.
armed units dont scare armed crimianls now, why would more armed gardai scare them??
its a nonsense argument in my opinion.

Turner

RSU are visible on the streets in high profile high powered cars.

They are well capable of keeping up with traveller and criminal gangs that use stolen high powered cars (volvos, oktavias vrs and high powered bmw's, all of which are 2.5L+)

SDU OCU and ERU are in un-amrked cars. Mostly mondeos. And are very hard to tell from regular detective cars. (bar some their high powered cars which are not distinguishable and will not be discussed or identified here)

Turner

Turner wrote: »

RSU are visible on the streets in high profile high powered cars.

They are well capable of keeping up with traveller and criminal gangs that use stolen high powered cars (volvos, oktavias vrs and high powered bmw's, all of which are 2.5L+)

SDU OCU and ERU are in un-amrked cars. Mostly mondeos. And are very hard to tell from regular detective cars. (bar some their high powered cars which are not distinguishable and will not be discussed or identified here)

well you try driving aound in an unmarked mondeo and see how many people dont realise who you are!!
every traveller and criminal gang in the country can spot an unmarked car quicker than most police!
and they know all unmarked cars have armed gardai inside them

kub

bubblypop wrote: »

why would RSU scare these criminals when they know that dublin is full of armed detectives? district detective units, SDU, OCU, ERU, what more could you possibly want in dublin??

the reason RSU units exists is because the country dont have the armed units that are available in Dublin.
armed units dont scare armed crimianls now, why would more armed gardai scare them??
its a nonsense argument in my opinion.

I agree with you, but lets take a look at the resources in Cork and Limerick cities before RSU. The only unit which they did not constantly have was ERU.
So why, if this is your point, is there RSU in both Cork and Limerick. Ps I am aware of the recent scum bag gangs in Limerick.
Also just how many of those units as you mentioned above, other than ERU, would have the same training and equipment as the RSU lads?
I have also had many conversations with retired members and each one has mentioned that it is a pity to see armed uniform Gardai in marked cars on patrol, but also said its a sign of the times & of the future.
Ps please do not take the typical Dubliners view that every thing outside the M50 is bogland.

Gary Busey

If every gardai carries a gun then we will have criminals shooting the second they see them. As well as that we will also get police chases through estates and shootouts etc. A gun bypasses courtrooms and induces more corruption. The gaurds that have them are trusted and have earned the right to have them. FFS I could become a gaurd next year and get a gun and go bananas.

And the main reason is because the more gaurds that have guns, the more likely one of them is to panic and kill an innocent person.

How many guards have lost their lives in the past 5 years due to not having a weapon......then how many people have lost their lives in trigger happy countries due to bad judgement of armed police. They are not needed. No matter how much a person steals they should not be killed before they even get a chance before a judge.


If every gaurd has a hand gun then criminals will simply upgrade to semis or fully automatics. If you constantly escalate this then criminals will be walking around with RPGs in no time.


What ever a gaurd is given, the criminal will be able to beat.

IRLConor

Gary Busey wrote: »

FFS I could become a gaurd next year and get a gun and go bananas.

Or you could skip the Garda college, get a firearm this year and go bananas. It's harder to get into the Gardai than it is to get a firearms licence and it's harder to get a firearms licence than it is to get an illegal firearm.

Access controls are a red herring in a discussion about arming Gardai.

Gary Busey wrote: »

If every gaurd has a hand gun then criminals will simply upgrade to semis or fully automatics.

There are already semi-automatic firearms in the possession of criminals, law-abiding civilians and the Gardai. As for fully automatic firearms, there are none legally in civilian hands but the Gardai have been seizing assault rifles from criminals for some years now. There's no "upgrade" needed, the criminals are already using those firearms.

Gary Busey wrote: »

If you constantly escalate this then criminals will be walking around with RPGs in no time.

That ship has sailed.




There are already armed Gardai, so it's hard to treat as credible your worries about bypassing courtrooms and increasing corruption. I haven't seen any evidence that the armed Gardai are any more or less susceptible to corruption than their unarmed colleagues.

Your worry about a Garda shooting an innocent person is one I share and I'm sure it's one plenty of Gardai share as well. It's one of the reasons I mentioned earlier in the thread that I would worry that not enough time and money would be set aside for firearms training if Gardai were armed on a wider scale than they are now. Safe and accurate handgun shooting requires a remarkable amount of regular training and I don't think the powers-who-make-budgets would have the willingness to pay for it.

Gary Busey

IRLConor wrote: »

There are already armed Gardai, so it's hard to treat as credible your worries about bypassing courtrooms and increasing corruption. I haven't seen any evidence that the armed Gardai are any more or less susceptible to corruption than their unarmed colleagues.

This is true, but there is a system in place for guards who want to and are suitable to become an armed member. If you gave everyone of them a gun then you nwould also put their lives at risk. If criminals knew every guard had a gun then they are more likely to open fire first.

Apart from that, does americas armed police do a better job than ours? Why do we need big guns to scare criminals anyway, we should be putting this money into round the clock surveilance and catching them in the act instead of backing them into a corner with firearms. Guns are made with one purpose in mind and i doesnt matter whos holding them

Witcher

Turner wrote: »

RSU are visible on the streets in high profile high powered cars.

They are well capable of keeping up with traveller and criminal gangs that use stolen high powered cars (volvos, oktavias vrs and high powered bmw's, all of which are 2.5L+)

SDU OCU and ERU are in un-amrked cars. Mostly mondeos. And are very hard to tell from regular detective cars. (bar some their high powered cars which are not distinguishable and will not be discussed or identified here)

Someone should tell the Gardai in my area to paint their unmarked cars a different colour. Anytime I've ever seen them it's a maroon Mondeo and it's not just the same car I've seen repeatedly they have at least 3 of them, I don't know if they're all from this district or coming in from another.

I lived in a rough enough area here for a while and you'd see them pulling up a few times a week and getting out and talking to groups of lads. Gang were breaking windows in a house down the road, maroon Mondeo showed up..they all fled. Might as well have a marked car:pac:

kub

Blay wrote: »

Someone should tell the Gardai in my area to paint their unmarked cars a different colour. Anytime I've ever seen them it's a maroon Mondeo and it's not just the same car I've seen repeatedly they have at least 3 of them, I don't know if they're all from this district or coming in from another.

I lived in a rough enough area here for a while and you'd see them pulling up a few times a week and getting out and talking to groups of lads. Gang were breaking windows in a house down the road, maroon Mondeo showed up..they all fled. Might as well have a marked car:pac:

But unmarked cars also have the usual bits and bobs so no matter what colour they are they will stick out like sore thumbs. As was mentioned earlier every scum bag and knacker will always spot them. Also if your local scum brigade scatter upon sight of the maroon Mondeo, then great, job done.
These are not undercover cars, these are unmarked cars, if AGS do not want to be noticed they won't be.

Gary Busey

kub wrote: »

But unmarked cars also have the usual bits and bobs so no matter what colour they are they will stick out like sore thumbs. As was mentioned earlier every scum bag and knacker will always spot them. Also if your local scum brigade scatter upon sight of the maroon Mondeo, then great, job done.
These are not undercover cars, these are unmarked cars, if AGS do not want to be noticed they won't be.

Thats right, All unmarked cars have 3 aerials on the roof, black wheels no hubcaps or alloys, no displayed tax etc, and you can usually see the black square siren in the window. These are unmarked and usually come in the form of mondo's, avensis's and volvos. And yes, anyone can spot them a mile away

I have also seen undercover lads pulling up in anything from BMWs with alloys to ten year old bangers(all with high pec engines) with L platesThese are undercovers and you wont see them.

Any car that pulles up to a group of lads will cause them to run, I find the lads on push bikes get up close and before they are seen or heard.

IRLConor

Gary Busey wrote: »

This is true, but there is a system in place for guards who want to and are suitable to become an armed member.

So why not widen that to uniformed members?

Gary Busey wrote: »

If you gave everyone of them a gun then you nwould also put their lives at risk.

Their lives are already at risk. Also, I'm sure if any Garda thought that carrying a firearm would increase the risk to themselves they wouldn't volunteer to carry a firearm. Why do you not want to give them a choice?

Gary Busey wrote: »

If criminals knew every guard had a gun then they are more likely to open fire first.

And you know this because you know the mind of every criminal in the country? Or because you have statistically valid evidence from other countries? Or because you're guessing?

Gary Busey wrote: »

Why do we need big guns to scare criminals anyway, we should be putting this money into round the clock surveilance and catching them in the act instead of backing them into a corner with firearms.

It's not an either-or. If Gardai are given wider access to firearms it doesn't mean they'll suddenly stop doing their jobs and just shoot/threaten everyone instead!

Gary Busey wrote: »

Guns are made with one purpose in mind and i doesnt matter whos holding them

That's patently untrue. Some guns are made exclusively for killing people. Some guns (like mine) are made exclusively for shooting paper targets. Some guns are well suited to both.

An "all guns are killing machines" attitude is woefully naïve.

Gary Busey

IRLConor wrote: »

So why not widen that to uniformed members?



Their lives are already at risk. Also, I'm sure if any Garda thought that carrying a firearm would increase the risk to themselves they wouldn't volunteer to carry a firearm. Why do you not want to give them a choice?



And you know this because you know the mind of every criminal in the country? Or because you have statistically valid evidence from other countries? Or because you're guessing?



It's not an either-or. If Gardai are given wider access to firearms it doesn't mean they'll suddenly stop doing their jobs and just shoot/threaten everyone instead!



That's patently untrue. Some guns are made exclusively for killing people. Some guns (like mine) are made exclusively for shooting paper targets. Some guns are well suited to both.

An "all guns are killing machines" attitude is woefully naïve.

Hands guns are for killing people rifles are for game etc.

Also, look at america.......do you want to live with the amount of mistakes police make over there. These were from just 5 minutes browseing through google. This is only the tip of the iceberg.

http://newsone.com/1964795/fake-911-call-leads-to-cops-killing-innocent-black-college-student/

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-802721

http://hiphopandpolitics.wordpress.com/2012/04/06/29-black-people-have-been-killed-by-policesecurity-since-jan-2012-16-since-trayvon/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129203/8-LAPD-police-officers-shoot-kill-unarmed-man-19-90-rounds-dramatic-car-chase-caught-live-TV.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-071205cops-htmlstory,0,2906787.htmlstory


Basically my point is they cause more harm than they do good. How many garda have blost their lives in the last 5 years due to not being armed? Answer that question with some factual evidence related directly to the question.;)

Gary Busey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV6e_L99SAY&feature=related