Sick of Unemployed People Getting abuse on

carm

Sleepy wrote: »

No. You won't be paying. The taxpayers will be and speaking as one of them, I'd far rather contribute towards your rent supplement than be one of those you expect to buy your house for you when I couldn't afford a mortgage myself even if there was value in the market...

So Sleepy, you'd prefer to be paying a family with two children e1,030 per month rent supplement as a tax payer than the greatly smaller interest from someone's mortgage? I hope you don't work in finance.

I think the point that's been missed with regard to rent allowance is - if someone loses their house, they look to go on the housing list and look for far greater assistance from the state. The rate is far greater. I have a feeling there is a minority of people who never bought would prefer to see someone lose their house they may have bought in the boom than see them assisted in paying the interest on their mortgage. Maybe I'm wrong.

Tony EH

puffishoes wrote: »

We're ranked number 2 in the oecd for average disposable income in the oecd.

You're right we should pay ourselves more and take that top spot.

:rolleyes:

I'd like to see the criteria for how that data is collated, because I don't believe it. It's been my experience that average workers in Ireland have been and are being paid less than that of other developed nations (America, Britain, France and Germany) for the same job type.

As I said, perhaps there's some areas in Ireland that are on ridiculous money, i.e. our grossly paid government officials, bankers, civil servants, etc, but by and large the average worker gets a lesser salary and gets less for that salary, than in some other countries.

This is particularly true of the present situation, where employers have used to current jobs drought to SEVERELY drop their salary options.

puffishoes

Tony EH wrote: »

I'd like to see the criteria for how that data is collated, because I don't believe it. It's been my experience that average workers in Ireland have been and are being paid less than that of other developed nations (America, Britain, France and Germany) for the same job type.

Of course you don't believe it, it doesn't fit your argument.

Tony EH wrote: »

I
As I said, perhaps there's some areas in Ireland that are on ridiculous money, i.e. our grossly paid government officials, bankers, civil servants, etc, but by and large the average worker gets a lesser salary and gets less for that salary, than in some other countries.

The avg ind wage is hovering in excess of over 35k. compared to for example Germany we have much lower taxes. so the actual disposable income you know the money you actually have to spend is higher. But if you belive the avergae salary to be higher maybe you can show us what leads you to belive it?

Tony EH wrote: »

I
This is particularly true of the present situation, where employers have used to current jobs drought to SEVERELY drop their salary options.

If I can get the job done for the same quality for paying less I will.

I would have thought this was the same for anyone?

packiec50

Is it not that we pay less in direct taxes so we have a higher disposable income.

But then we have to pay more for services, etc?

I have no figures on this, but wasn't that the whole PD/McCreevy plan?
Let the people have the money and then they can decide how to spend it?
e.g. Buy Health Insurance, rather than pay a Higher Health Tax,
or
pay private Rubbish collectors rather than pay a council tax and have your bins collected by the council?

Tony EH

puffishoes wrote: »

Of course you don't believe it, it doesn't fit your argument.

Rubbish.

I don't believe it, because I don't think it's true.

But, as I have said, some areas have been grossly overpaid, and still do in some cases. Our leader is one of the highest paid in the world! But it's been my experience that the average private sector worker has not, especially in starting salaries and there's been a steady drop for the past few years.

I don't believe that we are paying (or have paid) "ourselves" too much accross the board.

puffishoes

Tony EH wrote: »

Rubbish.

I don't believe it, because I don't think it's true.

But, as I have said, some areas have been grossly overpaid, and still do in some cases. Our leader is one of the highest paid in the world! But it's been my experience that the average private sector worker has not, especially in starting salaries and there's been a steady drop for the past few years.

I don't believe that we are paying (or have paid) "ourselves" too much accross the board.

Why would the OECD tell lies?

So someone can win an argument on the INTERNET?

You don't believe it, ok.

But do you have something that makes you not believe it? or you just don't know people on high wages?

Tony EH

Perhaps the sectors in Irish society that have been awarding themselves high wages was bumping up the average. An average can be very misleading.

But, I simply don't accept the argument that we are "paying ourselves too much" across the board.

Within my own area, I've seen differences in wages, both starting and longterm with that of Britain and on the continent and the US was and is way ahead. And recently there's been a ridiculous drop in average salaries.

My wife's on a decent wage now, but she's had to work in her job for nigh on 14 years to achieve that and has constantly seen better paid people doing the same job elsewhere.

I am talking private sector workers here, i.e. that majority of the taxpaying workforce.

puffishoes

Tony EH wrote: »

Perhaps the sectors in Irish society that have been awarding themselves high wages was bumping up the average. An average can be very misleading.

But, I simply don't accept the argument that we are "paying ourselves too much" across the board.

Within my own area, I've seen differences in wages, both starting and longterm with that of Britain and on the continent and the US was and is way ahead. And recently there's been a ridiculous drop in average salaries.

My wife's on a decent wage now, but she's had to work in her job for nigh on 14 years to achieve that and has constantly seen better paid people doing the same job elsewhere.

I am talking private sector workers here, i.e. that majority of the taxpaying workforce.

Ok so you accept the numbers and the facts.

but not the argument?

Ok again, do you have anything to base your non accepting of the facts and figures on or is just a gut feeling?

christmas2012

Wages shouldnt go down if the average standard of expense is not going down either..

creedp

puffishoes wrote: »

Ok so you accept the numbers and the facts.

but not the argument?

Ok again, do you have anything to base your non accepting of the facts and figures on or is just a gut feeling?

Surely that's enough!

Tony EH

puffishoes wrote: »

Ok so you accept the numbers and the facts.

but not the argument?

Ok again, do you have anything to base your non accepting of the facts and figures on or is just a gut feeling?

What "facts"? YOU have said the the "average" is too high.

I'v pointed out to you that an average can be a very misleading concept. I work with averages all the time and without context, or the background criteria, they are useless.

An average can scalled up or down drastically by a relatively small block of information.

And as I've said to you, there have been areas of Irish labour that has awarded themselves very high salaries. The civil service, for example, above a certain rank.

But the ordinary joe soap private sector worker is not being "paid too much".

Gurgle

puffishoes wrote: »

We're ranked number 2 in the oecd for average disposable income in the oecd.

I can't find this, can you link please.

puffishoes

Gurgle wrote: »

I can't find this, can you link please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage#Average_disposable_wage_of_OECD_members

puffishoes

Tony EH wrote: »

What "facts"? YOU have said the the "average" is too high.

I'v pointed out to you that an average can be a very misleading concept. I work with averages all the time and without context, or the background criteria, they are useless.

An average can scalled up or down drastically by a relatively small block of information.

And as I've said to you, there have been areas of Irish labour that has awarded themselves very high salaries. The civil service, for example, above a certain rank.

But the ordinary joe soap private sector worker is not being "paid too much".

I'm a normal private sector worker and I'm paid too much.

Everyone around me is paid too much.

Can I claim now that we pay ourselves too much?

My job in the Us is paid about 50% less. in the UK it's paid roughly the same.

over most of the EU it's from 25-50% less.

You understand how averages are made up right?

some are paid higher some are lower, it's the same for all countries where the average is established some will be on higher and some on lower..

but your suggesting the average in other countries is flawed?

Tony EH

puffishoes wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage#Average_disposable_wage_of_OECD_members

That doesn't show how the figures were arrived at. What criteria were used to project them?

Were hours worked taken into account? How was the data split? Which areas bump up and bump down the mean?

There's a large number of factors at play here.

It's also two years out of date.

puffishoes

Tony EH wrote: »

That doesn't show how the figures were arrived at. What criteria were used to project them?

Were hours worked taken into account? How was the data split? Which areas bump up and bump down the mean?

There's a large number of factors at play here.

It's also two years out of date.

It's the average wage minus compulsory reductions.

If it was the same criteria used for each country we come out in the top in all aspects, including average wage.

Do you have anything to suggest we're underpaid?

puffishoes

dchris wrote: »

The OECD figures are averages. And don't take into account that Income distribution. In Ireland, Income distribution per decile (10%) was

B

of course there averages but every country on the list is averaged in the same manner.

They didn't do Ireland any differently to any other country.

dchris

puffishoes wrote: »

We're ranked number 2 in the oecd for average disposable income in the oecd.

You're right we should pay ourselves more and take that top spot.

:rolleyes:

I think you disposable income figure is correct, it is not a relevant statistic as it is an average, and does not take into account distribution of income, nor distribution of wealth.

47% of people (employed & unemployed) have less that 100euro disposable income at the end of each month.



According to the ILCU's Final 2011 ‘Whats Left’ Disposable Income Tracker Results

Of those that work

7% or 126,000 workers find their disposable income does not even cover essential bills. A further 7% or have nothing left after they have paid their essential bills.



26% or 468,000 have1-5% of their disposable income left after paying their bills.

18%% or 324,000 have 6 -10% of their disposable income left after paying their bills.

23% or 414,000 have 11-20% of their disposable income left after paying essential bills.

19% or 342,000 have 20+% of their disposable income left after paying essential bills.



The OECD figures are averages. And don't take into account that Income distribution. In Ireland in 2009, Income distribution per decile (10%) was

Bottom 10% 2.3
20% 3.6
30% 2.03
40% 6.31
50% 7.66
60% 9.11
70% 10.96
80% 12.94
90% 16.15
Top 10% 25.83




http://www.creditunion.ie/communications/pressreleases/2012/title,1724,en.php

http://www.socialjustice.ie/sites/default/files/file/SER%202011/2011-05-16%20-%20chapter%203_1%20Income.pdf

puffishoes

dchris wrote: »

4
http://www.creditunion.ie/communications/pressreleases/2012/title,1724,en.php

Tesco most popular option for weekly grocery shop followed by Dunnes and the low cost German retailers Lidl and Aldi

Why are these people shopping in the most exspesnive shops when they can't afford to pay their bills?

This is the sort of stupidity that's being pointed out.

they claim they can't afford this and can't afford that yet won't shop in the cheapest stores for food

Gurgle

puffishoes wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage#Average_disposable_wage_of_OECD_members

Thanks.
This data is from 2010, which appears to be the latest available for disposable income. It doesn't take into account the tax hikes in budgets since then.

Average gross pay = $48,757, this translates to €39,200 at today's exchange rate.

But here is Q1 2012 data showing €2996 monthly or €35,952 yearly, a fall of 8.3%.

Having a large drop in gross and large increases in taxation I suspect we will be quite far from that top spot when the statistics catch up.

daltonmd

Sin City wrote: »

So thats the moving to somewhere else shot down

You shot that down yourself here:

"rent somewhere ill still be paying so I might aswell pay the mortagage"

That you can't afford to pay - but want to keep your house.

"You try paying a mortgage, car , insurence tax, life assurence electricity, gas food, clothing and any other bills im forgetting when your on 188 a week."

You can't afford a car - but want to keep your car.

You want to work but not one of those Jobsbidgey thingy's.

Basically you "want" everything you had when you worked.

daltonmd

Sin City wrote: »

We could always just re tax the employed till these new laws are brought in
Help those in need

The announcement is tommorow.

dchris

puffishoes wrote: »

Tesco most popular option for weekly grocery shop followed by Dunnes and the low cost German retailers Lidl and Aldi

Why are these people shopping in the most exspesnive shops when they can't afford to pay their bills?

This is the sort of stupidity that's being pointed out.

they claim they can't afford this and can't afford that yet won't shop in the cheapest stores for food

You have proof of what is the cheapest store then? Would love to see some factual information to back that up! I'll go put the kettle on and await your response..

dchris

Gurgle wrote: »

Thanks.
This data is from 2010, which appears to be the latest available for disposable income. It doesn't take into account the tax hikes in budgets since then.

Average gross pay = $48,757, this translates to €39,200 at today's exchange rate.

But here is Q1 2012 data showing €2996 monthly or €35,952 yearly, a fall of 8.3%.

Having a large drop in gross and large increases in taxation I suspect we will be quite far from that top spot when the statistics catch up.

More importantly it doesn't account for income distribution. Which just highlights Rich/Poor divide. The rich are so rich that the averages are skewed and don't reflect reality

Sleepy

puffishoes wrote: »

Tesco most popular option for weekly grocery shop followed by Dunnes and the low cost German retailers Lidl and Aldi

Why are these people shopping in the most exspesnive shops when they can't afford to pay their bills?

This is the sort of stupidity that's being pointed out.

they claim they can't afford this and can't afford that yet won't shop in the cheapest stores for food

Honestly, we find Tesco the cheapest to shop in. Were we buying branded goods, yes, perhaps Lidl or Aldi would be the best option but for generic own-brand stuff, Tesco compete very well. Grocery shopping for a family of 4 typically costs us between €80 and €100. Often rises to €120 if we put a case of beer into the trolley for the weekend.

Gurgle

dchris wrote: »

More importantly it doesn't account for income distribution. Which just highlights Rich/Poor divide. The rich are so rich that the averages are skewed and don't reflect reality

We're near enough the OECD average, but of course this is skewed by our high rate of social welfare.
(ducks)

Tony EH

No average figure can be taken as definitive, until the background data of that average is defined.

An average is made up of blocks of information and you could have 20 blocks of info that contain relatively low figures and 2 blocks of info containing massive figures, which will bump the average up to a misleading degree.

Without the context the figure is just a figure.

puffishoes

dchris wrote: »

You have proof of what is the cheapest store then? Would love to see some factual information to back that up! I'll go put the kettle on and await your response..

Yes the proof is in the store on the price tag.

dchris

Gurgle wrote: »

We're near enough the OECD average, but of course this is skewed by our high rate of social welfare.
(ducks)

This is sarcasm right?

Gurgle

Sleepy wrote: »

Honestly, we find Tesco the cheapest to shop in. Were we buying branded goods, yes, perhaps Lidl or Aldi would be the best option but for generic own-brand stuff, Tesco compete very well. Grocery shopping for a family of 4 typically costs us between €80 and €100. Often rises to €120 if we put a case of beer into the trolley for the weekend.

Feck, you're doing alright there.
I take in Lidl and Supervalu in a round trip and we rarely get away with less than €150 for a family of 5. Maybe my kids are older, or just hungrier.