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Sick of Unemployed People Getting abuse on

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    #242
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    daltonmd wrote: »
    With respect, you seem to focus on what working people should do with their money, what they should change/cut out yet you have an issue with the same suggestions given to unemployed people, who are not earning the money.
    tbh I think the questions are reasonable, the whole discussion is on what we get compared to what we need it for whether we work or not.


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    #243
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    daltonmd wrote: »
    With respect, you seem to focus on what working people should do with their money, what they should change/cut out yet you have an issue with the same suggestions given to unemployed people, who are not earning the money.

    Does this seem fair to you?


    There are 16 pages of the employed telling the unemployed what they should and should not spend their money on and that they are getting too much and the emplyed are just scraping buy.

    Im just saying that the employed can also make savings in the same way as they are telling the unemployed what should be cut from their lifestyle

    a kind of practice what you preach statment if you will


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    #244
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    Sin City wrote: »
    There are 16 pages of the employed telling the unemployed what they should and should not spend their money on
    That's kind of a slanted way of putting it.

    I see 16 pages of discussion whether welfare rates are sufficient to provide an unemployed person with a similar lifestyle to someone working and in a lot of cases the answer is yes.

    The people truly suffering are those who carried debts and other commitments from employment into unemployment.


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    #245
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Gurgle wrote: »
    That's kind of a slanted way of putting it.

    I see 16 pages of discussion whether welfare rates are sufficient to provide an unemployed person with a similar lifestyle to someone working and in a lot of cases the answer is yes.

    The people truly suffering are those who carried debts and other commitments from employment into unemployment.


    But most people on the dole would have debts and expences to pay for aswell
    just because your unemplyed doesnt mean your mortgage , insurence or what have you will decrease, likewise your weekly shop and bills.

    If the employed are struggling to pay for these, can you imagine how an unemplyed person has to cope with it.

    Not to mention that being on the dole and not having enough to pay for the basic necessities can lead to the break up of families


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    #246
    daltonmd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭daltonmd


    Sin City wrote: »
    There are 16 pages of the employed telling the unemployed what they should and should not spend their money on and that they are getting too much and the emplyed are just scraping buy.

    Im just saying that the employed can also make savings in the same way as they are telling the unemployed what should be cut from their lifestyle

    a kind of practice what you preach statment if you will



    I'm rarely stunned. But this has stunned me.

    You cannot differenciate between someone working, earning their own money from someone not working and receiving a benefit from the taxes that the working person pays?
    Grand so.


    @ Gurgle - my point was that he took offence that people here said that internet/cars and the like are not what SW is meant to cover. "We" have the nerve to tell an unemployed person that these things are not an absolute necessity.


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    #247
    daltonmd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭daltonmd


    Sin City wrote: »
    But most people on the dole would have debts and expences to pay for aswell
    just because your unemplyed doesnt mean your mortgage , insurence or what have you will decrease, likewise your weekly shop and bills.

    If the employed are struggling to pay for these, can you imagine how an unemplyed person has to cope with it.

    Not to mention that being on the dole and not having enough to pay for the basic necessities can lead to the break up of families


    Nobody disputes that, as a matter of fact I have said as much. SW is not and was never meant to cover these debts - that is a whole other problem and working people are struggling and cuttin out what they can, in a lot of cases SKY/cars internet just to keep things ticking over. They do it with NO support from the state.


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    #248
    creedp
    Registered Users Posts: 5,676 ✭✭✭creedp


    Gurgle wrote: »
    We've had the same person minding the kids for several years at the same price. Still below the 'going rate', and always way under creche prices.

    Is this person an 'offical' childminder, i.e. registered and paying taxes, etc? This is the problem I find unfortunately .. go for somone on the black market and pay below the going rate .. go for somone registered and paying taxes and pay through the nose. Problem there is the cultivation of the black market .. however I suppose we all (sorry most of us) do it at some time of other, e.g. pay a tradesman 'in cash' for a 20% reduction in price.

    In my experience official childcare costs have reduced very little in recent years. Which at least is an improvement on the 5% 'cost of living' increase that was automatically imposed previously.


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    #249
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    daltonmd wrote: »
    Nobody disputes that, as a matter of fact I have said as much. SW is not and was never meant to cover these debts - that is a whole other problem and working people are struggling and cuttin out what they can, in a lot of cases SKY/cars internet just to keep things ticking over. They do it with NO support from the state.

    These debts have to be paid regardless weather the social welfare was meant to cover them or not.

    The employed do it with the aid of their employer.


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    #250
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    daltonmd wrote: »
    I'm rarely stunned. But this has stunned me.

    You cannot differenciate between someone working, earning their own money from someone not working and receiving a benefit from the taxes that the working person pays?
    Grand so.


    @ Gurgle - my point was that he took offence that people here said that internet/cars and the like are not what SW is meant to cover. "We" have the nerve to tell an unemployed person that these things are not an absolute necessity.

    If the employed are worried about their finances they can always cut back

    Thats how you budget.

    Doesnt matter if your employed or on the dole, people may still need to budget


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    #251
    daltonmd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭daltonmd


    Sin City wrote: »
    If the employed are worried about their finances they can always cut back

    Thats how you budget.

    Doesnt matter if your employed or on the dole, people may still need to budget

    Exactly. But your prior argument was different, you said :"There are 16 pages of the employed telling the unemployed what they should and should not spend their money on and that they are getting too much"

    So again, you can give your advice freely to a working person who has probably cut back a lot already, but when we tell an unemployed person repaying debts, maintaining a car and the like, that this isn't what the money is for then we're begrudgers.

    Go figure.


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    #252
    daltonmd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭daltonmd


    Sin City wrote: »
    These debts have to be paid regardless weather the social welfare was meant to cover them or not.

    The employed do it with the aid of their employer.

    They do it because they WORK to EARN it.


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    #253
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    daltonmd wrote: »
    Exactly. But your prior argument was different, you said :"There are 16 pages of the employed telling the unemployed what they should and should not spend their money on and that they are getting too much"

    So again, you can give your advice freely to a working person who has probably cut back a lot already, but when we tell an unemployed person repaying debts, maintaining a car and the like, that this isn't what the money is for then we're begrudgers.

    Go figure.

    Probably because those on the dole have cut back to the bare bones as it is

    You try paying a mortgage, car , insurence tax, life assurence electricity, gas food, clothing and any other bills im forgetting when your on 188 a week


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    #254
    carm
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭carm


    Kurz wrote: »
    Rent allowance was looked at and changed quite aggressively just this year. This resulted in people being forced to negotiate with private landlords on behalf of the government. I don't disagree that it's a bad system but the extra allowances are all means-tested payments so the authorities have the opportunity to scrutinise the finances of the claimants in the first place.

    They could save multiples of that by cutting the base rate because 450,000 people claim the base rate, people who aren't means tested in the first place. They don't want to do this because they will lose votes.

    Kurz, I'm not sure what you mean here. After a year on Jobseekers Benefit, everyone is means tested and moves on to Jobseekers Allowance if they qualify (unless they get work)? Nearly half the 440k people are in receipt of means-tested JA.


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    #255
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    daltonmd wrote: »
    They do it because they WORK to EARN it.
    and if there were jobs around we would work for it too

    No one wants to be on the dole

    especially with the employed looking down their noses at us like we should be on the streets begging for spare change


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    #256
    daltonmd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭daltonmd


    Sin City wrote: »
    Probably because those on the dole have cut back to the bare bones as it is

    You try paying a mortgage, car , insurence tax, life assurence electricity, gas food, clothing and any other bills im forgetting when your on 188 a week

    You're not getting it sincity. Firstly you get Mortgage Interest supplement, secondly you SELL THE CAR.

    Your 188pw is NOT for that.


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    #257
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    daltonmd wrote: »
    You're not getting it sincity. Firstly you get Mortgage Interest supplement, secondly you SELL THE CAR.

    Your 188pw is NOT for that.

    How much intrest suppliment do you think we get, and anyway that only pays a part of the mortgage we still have to pay the rest, cant sell the car, how am I supposed to travel for interviews?


    Im not from Dublin so public transport is fairly useless


    Or bring my kids to the hospital?

    No I think your not getting it

    It doesnt matter where our money comes from, we still have to pay for our bills.


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    #258
    srsly78
    Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    You don't have to. You can declare bankruptcy.


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    #259
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,079 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Gurgle wrote: »
    I'm not sure how true this actually is anymore. I'm in a related field, and I know we earn less than the European average and a much smaller premium over China / India compared to 5 years ago.

    I don't think the average earnings for IT here ever reached the level in the US either.

    The "we pay ourselves too much" argument is nonsense. SOME areas may pay themselves too much, Mr E. Kenny...I'm looking at you, but on the whole Irelands average wages are lower paid than most other developed countries.

    It's even lower now, because employers are taking advantage of the fact that there's a jobs deficit and people are desperate to take up anything they can get.


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    #260
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Sin City wrote: »
    These debts have to be paid regardless weather the social welfare was meant to cover them or not.

    The employed do it with the aid of their employer.

    Welfare shouldn't be used to cover debts.

    How long does a person have to be unemployed before something as burdensome as a mortgage becomes unsustainable? Savings would provide a buffer but I'd imagine it would become unsustainable very quick. What seems to come less quickly is the realisation that although you could afford a house when working you can no longer afford a house.

    You need to talk to your bank.


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    #261
    carm
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭carm


    daltonmd wrote: »
    You're not getting it sincity. Firstly you get Mortgage Interest supplement, secondly you SELL THE CAR.

    Your 188pw is NOT for that.

    Not everyone is entitled to mortgage interest supplement, which covers the interest part of your mortgage, which for some is small (they are going to be restricting this soon as of the news yesterday), which is why there's only around 19,000 in receipt of it. If you do qualify, you qualify for a year. With rent allowance, it's ongoing.

    daltonmd, why do your posts tone sound like you are under some fairy fantasy that people are driving around in BMWs with iphone strapped to their heads while on welfare? I'm exaggerating somewhat but it's something I'm noticing throughout the thread. Why the gritted teeth use of caps?


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    #262
    daltonmd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭daltonmd


    Sin City wrote: »
    How much intrest suppliment do you think we get, and anyway that only pays a part of the mortgage we still have to pay the rest, cant sell the car, how am I supposed to travel for interviews?

    But there are no jobs - why hold onto a car "at any cost". You have to cut your cloth - that's the point, it's a massive drain on your finances. I couldn't afford mine and rely on public transport - an absolute pain but I HAD to do it.

    Sin City wrote: »
    Im not from Dublin so public transport is fairly useless

    Neither am I and as a matter of fact to further reduce my outgoings I am moving further out to save 300 euro pm in rent.

    Sin City wrote: »
    Or bring my kids to the hospital?

    Same as that.
    Sin City wrote: »
    No I think your not getting it
    Oh, I get it. I got it a long time ago.
    Sin City wrote: »
    It doesnt matter where our money comes from, we still have to pay for our bills.

    It matters when taxpayers are being squeezed to death and at some point SW WILL be cut - there is no if buts and why about it.

    It may be next year - but it's for the chop and my advice to you is reign in any unneccasary spending.


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    #263
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Laminations wrote: »
    Welfare shouldn't be used to cover debts.

    How long does a person have to be unemployed before something as burdensome as a mortgage becomes unsustainable? Savings would provide a buffer but I'd imagine it would become unsustainable very quick. What seems to come less quickly is the realisation that although you could afford a house when working you can no longer afford a house.

    You need to talk to your bank.


    Welfare HAS to cover debts, no one is going to end up desitiute by not paying their debts, thats just madness

    Banks wont do anything

    Hand back the keys and go where exactly'?

    rent somewhere ill still be paying so I might aswell pay the mortagage

    Bottom line is we need jobs. Real jobs not these jobsbridge cons


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    #264
    daltonmd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭daltonmd


    carm wrote: »
    Not everyone is entitled to mortgage interest supplement, which covers the interest part of your mortgage, which for some is small (they are going to be restricting this soon as of the news yesterday), which is why there's only around 19,000 in receipt of it. If you do qualify, you qualify for a year. With rent allowance, it's ongoing.

    daltonmd, why do your posts tone sound like you are under some fairy fantasy that people are driving around in BMWs with iphone strapped to their heads while on welfare? I'm exaggerating somewhat but it's something I'm noticing throughout the thread. Why the gritted teeth use of caps?


    Oh please. If there is anyone under a fantasy I can tell you it certainly isn't me.

    And by the way - SW is NOT for that either.

    Edit - the use of the caps is to try and emphasise that having a car for example is not a choice if you don't work and neglect neccesities to pay for it.


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    #265
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    But there are no jobs - why hold onto a car "at any cost". You have to cut your cloth - that's the point, it's a massive drain on your finances. I couldn't afford mine and rely on public transport - an absolute pain but I HAD to do it.

    Where are you from, lets compare transport services



    Neither am I and as a matter of fact to further reduce my outgoings I am moving further out to save 300 euro pm in rent.

    The cost of renting is more or less in line with my mortgage, also as I have zero savings , hard to save on the dole, how do I afford my new security deposit and first months rent in advance while still wairing for my house to sell?



    Same as that.


    Oh, I get it. I got it a long time ago.

    I doubt you do


    It matters when taxpayers are being squeezed to death and at some point SW WILL be cut - there is no if buts and why about it.

    Wait and see

    It may be next year - but it's for the chop and my advice to you is reign in any unneccasary spending

    Im on the dole
    All my spending is necessary


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    #266
    daltonmd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭daltonmd


    Sin City wrote: »
    Welfare HAS to cover debts, no one is going to end up desitiute by not paying their debts, thats just madness

    Banks wont do anything

    Hand back the keys and go where exactly'?

    rent somewhere ill still be paying so I might aswell pay the mortagage

    Bottom line is we need jobs. Real jobs not these jobsbridge cons


    Bottom line is you need to wait for the new insolvency laws and see what they can do for you.

    A lot of people who bought in the boom and are now not working are going to have to accept this reality. Not a nice thing at all, but some people just will not be able to avoid it.


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    #267
    carm
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭carm


    daltonmd wrote: »
    Oh please. If there is anyone under a fantasy I can tell you it certainly isn't me.

    And by the way - SW is NOT for that either.

    Edit - the use of the caps is to try and emphasise that having a car for example is not a choice if you don't work and neglect neccesities to pay for it.

    Social Welfare is not for "what" either?


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    #268
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    daltonmd wrote: »
    Bottom line is you need to wait for the new insolvency laws and see what they can do for you.

    A lot of people who bought in the boom and are now not working are going to have to accept this reality. Not a nice thing at all, but some people just will not be able to avoid it.

    We could always just re tax the employed till these new laws are brought in
    Help those in need


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    #269
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,176 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Sin City wrote: »
    rent somewhere ill still be paying so I might aswell pay the mortagage
    No. You won't be paying. The taxpayers will be and speaking as one of them, I'd far rather contribute towards your rent supplement than be one of those you expect to buy your house for you when I couldn't afford a mortgage myself even if there was value in the market...


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    #270
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Sleepy wrote: »
    No. You won't be paying. The taxpayers will be and speaking as one of them, I'd far rather contribute towards your rent supplement than be one of those you expect to buy your house for you when I couldn't afford a mortgage myself even if there was value in the market...

    So thats the moving to somewhere else shot down


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    #271
    puffishoes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 690 ✭✭✭puffishoes


    Tony EH wrote: »
    The "we pay ourselves too much" argument is nonsense. SOME areas may pay themselves too much, Mr E. Kenny...I'm looking at you, but on the whole Irelands average wages are lower paid than most other developed countries.

    It's even lower now, because employers are taking advantage of the fact that there's a jobs deficit and people are desperate to take up anything they can get.

    We're ranked number 2 in the oecd for average disposable income in the oecd.

    You're right we should pay ourselves more and take that top spot.

    :rolleyes:


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