Nigel Farage MEP

sin_city

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

If winning means that UKIP has the most MEPs then yes, if winning means the majority of people in the UK voted for them then no. If winning means they have a majority in the European Parliament then no

Ah ok, that's good...Try using that logic in the US with the presidential election.

Yes winning does mean getting the most seats in this case.

sin_city

Scofflaw wrote: »

I certainly don't claim he has no leadership skills at all - I only took issue with "great" leadership skills. After all, on the same basis, wouldn't one have to credit Eamon Gilmore with "great" leadership skills because of the 2011 election result for Labour?

cordially,
Scofflaw

No, because Labour did not come out of nowhere in the last few years to huge prominence...This is all down to the great leadership and charisma of Farage.

Is there an Eamon Gilmore thread and if there is...has it this many people on it?

I sincerely doubt it.

A Dub in Glasgo

sin_city wrote: »

Ah ok, that's good...Try using that logic in the US with the presidential election.

Getting more seats in a 2 horse race is winning, that is not applicable here

UKIP - 32.9% of seats
Labour - 27.4% of seats
Tory - 26% of seats
Others -13.7% of seats

In one definition they won, if this was a UK parliamentary election, they would have to enter coalition with someone (probably Tory) to 'win'

The Corinthian

jank wrote: »

Are we talking about Westminster here or the European parliament? As I have no idea which one you are talking about...(and I did ask for clarification).

Parliamentary elections in general.

Can you show me some obvious examples of governments being formed that excluded the biggest party? Maybe Greece or Italy but there are not that many and its rather unusual.

First, I said "not controlled by the party that 'came first'", never said anything about being excluded. Second, whether it is 'unusual' or not is irrelevant as it demonstrates that 'coming first' does not imply 'winning'. Finally, you want an example? The SVP in Switzerland.

You are disagreeing with yourself in a way in what you said above. You do not need a majority to gain control of a parliament. Take for example the PD's in 2002 or the Greens in 2007. They did not 'win' that election yet found themselves in power and had a fair amount of influence as the king makers.

I specifically mentioned coalitions; so yes, the Greens or PD's were 'winners' in those elections. No contradiction.

The days of mainstream parties getting an overall majority of over 50% of the vote are well and truly over. As I said previously, this has not happened in the UK for the best part of 70 years, so given that reasoning of 'winning' nobody has won an election that way, not even Blair in 97.

Again, I specifically cited coalitions.

It seems rather a pedantic argument in fairness when UKIP have become the first party in over a century to 'win' a national election that didn't include the other big two. What you are essentially saying, pedantically is that UKIP are still 'losers'. So if they are losers, who are the winners of the European elections in the UK?

Well if you want to see things in simplistic and binary terms, sure. Politics isn't so simple though. The UKIP made serious gains in these elections, which cannot be ignored - as did the Labour party, BTW - and so were the party that gained the most.

But who 'won' the election - that super-national group or groups that will be able to dictate how the parliament votes for the next five years. There's nothing pedantic about that.

Scofflaw

sin_city wrote: »

No, because Labour did not come out of nowhere in the last few years to huge prominence...This is all down to the great leadership and charisma of Farage.

Is there an Eamon Gilmore thread and if there is...has it this many people on it?

I sincerely doubt it.

Well, I'd still say that rather a lot of people are mixing up "come from nowhere due to the great charisma of its leader Nigel Farage" with "come from nowhere due to the great leadership of Nigel Farage".

It's not great leadership, it's Great Leader-ship. The two are different.

cordially,
Scofflaw

sin_city

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, I'd still say that rather a lot of people are mixing up "come from nowhere due to the great charisma of its leader Nigel Farage" with "come from nowhere due to the great leadership of Nigel Farage".

It's not great leadership, it's Great Leader-ship. The two are different.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sorry, what did you say about Eamon Gilmore?

sin_city

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

In one definition they won, if this was a UK parliamentary election...

But it wasn't....and they did win

A Dub in Glasgo

sin_city wrote: »

But it wasn't....and they did win

You are right, it was not a UK Parliamentary election, it was the European Parliament election.

Please explain to me how they are going to implement their policies across Europe then.

Scofflaw

sin_city wrote: »

Sorry, what did you say about Eamon Gilmore?

I made the point that if a great election result was automatically attributed to great leadership, then Eamon Gilmore was clearly a great leader back in 2011.

It doesn't really hold, does it?

cordially,
Scofflaw

sin_city

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You are right, it was not a UK Parliamentary election, it was the European Parliament election.

Good man, you've finally figured it out

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Please explain to me how they are going to implement their policies across Europe then.

Not sure....to use a football expression, they have to take each election as it comes.

I'm delighted I was trying to explain the word begrudge to someone....now all I need to do is show him this thread

househero

When the UK leaves Europe, it won't matter who voted Nigal and his parties dangerously right wing policies in to Europe.

sin_city

househero wrote: »

When the UK leaves Europe, it won't matter who voted Nigal and his parties dangerously right wing policies in to Europe.

Ohhhh...scary.

He just wants an immigration policy like Australia....what's wrong with that?

househero

sin_city wrote: »

Ohhhh...scary.

He just wants an immigration policy like Australia....what's wrong with that?

And Hitler just wanted to make Germany proud again.


Hahaha. No seriously Farce has the support of every racist in England, UKIP is dangerous now they have the support of the ex Nick Griffin voters.

I dislike every single far right politician as they are borderline racists supported by sun readers who have no idea how their own economy works, let alone grows. Immigrants have made the working class of England wealthy, happy to invade 1/3rd of the world take all it's wealth, then close the door...

It doesn't work like that I'm afraid. England is hated enough as it is.

sin_city

househero wrote: »

And Hitler just wanted to make Germany proud again.


Hahaha. No seriously Farce has the support of every racist in England, UKIP is dangerous now they have the support of the ex Nick Griffin voters.

I dislike every single far right politician as they are borderline racists supported by sun readers who have no idea how their own economy works, let alone grows. Immigrants have made the working class of England wealthy, happy to invade 1/3rd of the world take all it's wealth, then close the door...

It doesn't work like that I'm afraid. England is hated enough as it is.

UKIP got MEPs in Scotland and Wales. Farage has a mostly non-interventionist policy. Do you like the current politicians like William Hague that want EU involvement in Ukraine? Good for you...Bad for dead people in Ukraine.

Farage doesn't mind immigrants...he just wants control on it....He says Brits have history with places like India and New Zealand but these countries are discriminated against because of the EU.

UKIP came first in this election....They got 27.5% of the vote in the North West and nobody buy the SUN in Liverpool.

You're way off....Many people all around Europe are sick of the current group of politicians and UKIP offer something different....straight talking.

Only 13% of people voted in Slovakia.

Using the term racist to end an argument against people who are not racist is no longer acceptable. People are going to have to either come up with a better argument or label large portions of populations all over the world as racists.

househero

sin_city wrote: »

nobody buy the SUN in Liverpool.

Many people all around Europe are sick of the current group of politicians and UKIP offer something different.

People in Liverpool do buy the sun, Hillsborough was a long time ago.

The Germans were sick of their weak politicians, so they VOTED for Hitler. They VOTED for the Nazis. One more time... Germans VOTED for the Nazi party.

As soon as the heroic generation that fought for our freedom dies, everybody votes for their own right wing nationalist parties. UKIP the national Front in France and our own right wing nationalists. We owe it to millions of dead soldiers to be stronger than this, instead if this separatist crap.

I absolutely agree that politicians have let us down and we are tired of them, but history we all know, and our grandparents were part of, means WE SHOULD ALL BE MORE CAREFUL ABOUT WHO WE VOTE IN... ALL OF US

A Dub in Glasgo

sin_city wrote: »

Good man, you've finally figured it out

Looks like you are still in the figuring it out phase

dlouth15

househero wrote: »

...

No need to misquote another poster to make your point.

sin_city

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Looks like you are still in the figuring it out phase

Good response.

househero

dlouth15 wrote: »

No need to misquote another poster to make your point.

Huh. Edited. Sorry mistake. A Funny one though.

Scofflaw

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Looks like you are still in the figuring it out phase

sin_city wrote: »

Good response.

Not really contributory.

moderately,
Scofflaw

dlouth15

sock puppet wrote: »

UKIP's power isn't the number of seats they're likely to win, but rather from the prospect that they'll split the conservative vote. The Conservatives have already conceded a lot of ground to their Eurosceptic win to try and prevent it. Though I'm not sure what else they can get apart from the referendum? And Labour winning would kill the referendum anyway.

But the referendum is their primary goal. Anything else is a bonus. Therefore they will only contest seats where it is in their strategic advantage to do so in order to get that referendum. They won't contest in a constituency where the result would be merely a splitting of the Conservative vote leading to a labour candidate winning.

Nodin

"A Ukip branch chairman has suggested that parts of London are being “ethnically cleansed” of white people."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ukip-branch-chairman-london-is-being-ethnically-cleansed-of-white-people-9448154.html

Never ending, really.

ewan whose army

Nodin wrote: »

"A Ukip branch chairman has suggested that parts of London are being “ethnically cleansed” of white people."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ukip-branch-chairman-london-is-being-ethnically-cleansed-of-white-people-9448154.html

Never ending, really.

Yup as a gay Brit I find them abhorrent

n comments posted on Facebook last year Mr Small attacked Clare Balding and Sir Elton John for their sexual orientation.
Mr Small wrote: “Why on earth is this useless Goverment pandering to Puffs? I refuse to call them gays, as what has gay to do with Perverts like Elton John and Clair Balding [sic] who get their jollies in such disgusting ways. to sum up, they should not allowed to be married, they should go back to the closet.”
He also referred to gay people as “perverts” last February, and said that “poofs and dykes” should not be allowed to marry.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/05/27/newly-elected-ukip-councillor-who-said-fk-the-poofters-suspended/

Still suspended THE DAY AFTER getting elected has to be some form of record I guess

sin_city

ewan whose army wrote: »

Yup as a gay Brit I find them abhorrent

What has that got to do with anything? Being gay?

MY brother is gay and he thinks UKIP are great

meglome

sin_city wrote: »

What has that got to do with anything? Being gay?

MY brother is gay and he thinks UKIP are great

He'd better hope they don't manage to get rid of the immigrants so they can focus more on their dislike of the gays.

sin_city

meglome wrote: »

He'd better hope them don't manage to get rid of the immigrants so they can focus more on their dislike of the gays.

He believes that Japan, where he has visited, for example has strict immigration but never gets accused of being racist and that homosexuals are treated pretty much the same there as in any western country.

He says if you listen to what UKIP say it is pretty common sense.

They just want control on who gets in. Currently people not from the EU are being discriminated against. It might be good for the UK economy to let in for example 10,000 educated workers from India, whom they have a history with, rather than 10,000 unskilled workers from various countries in Eastern Europe.

Do you think it is fair that Europe discriminates against people from not inside the EU or do you think we should have open borders worldwide?

Nodin

sin_city wrote: »

He believes that Japan, where he has visited, for example has strict immigration but never gets accused of being racist ............

I'd say he doesn't know much about Japan.

ewan whose army

sin_city wrote: »

What has that got to do with anything? Being gay?

MY brother is gay and he thinks UKIP are great

Call me old fashioned but I am not going to vote for a party who is full of people who thinks that I should hold no rights.

Look at their reaction to the same sex marriage bill.

The only gay UKIP MEP is a bit unhinged, he had a huge rant about how Same Sex Marriage makes people homophobic despite the evidence showing that the vast majority of Brits support LGBT people.

I think I know why gay people support UKIP its because they oppose militant Islam who are seen as the most homophobic group in the UK (apart from Stephen Green fundie ilk, who would probably kill me twice for being gay and then again for converting to Catholicism when I was 12!! )

ewan whose army

sin_city wrote: »

He believes that Japan, where he has visited, for example has strict immigration but never gets accused of being racist and that homosexuals are treated pretty much the same there as in any western country.

He says if you listen to what UKIP say it is pretty common sense.

They just want control on who gets in. Currently people not from the EU are being discriminated against. It might be good for the UK economy to let in for example 10,000 educated workers from India, whom they have a history with, rather than 10,000 unskilled workers from various countries in Eastern Europe.

Do you think it is fair that Europe discriminates against people from not inside the EU or do you think we should have open borders worldwide?

I am actually for caps on non Uk/Irl/EU immigration (Irish people are seen as non EU since the CTA and the Ireland Act give them far more rights than EU nationals, its vice versa though I can vote over here) a government should look after its own people first, but its strict as it is. Unless your employer pays a lot of money or you have a skill on the shortage list (very high skilled) then you have no chance of a visa.

Also consider the fact any job being given to a Non EU national has to prove they couldn't give it to a Non-EU national. Say me and this Iranian were applying for a job, we have similar degrees and both did well in the interview, the Iranian would have no chance since they would have to hire me a UK citizen.

Is that strict enough for you ?

comongethappy

sin_city wrote: »

What has that got to do with anything? Being gay?

MY brother is gay and he thinks UKIP are great

Your bro may love UKIP..... UKIPs members don't love him.

Yet another sacking.... (You'd think a pattern has well formed.)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/28/ukip-councillor-sacked-newly-elected