Nigel Farage MEP

Scofflaw

ewan whose army wrote: »

Salmond gets a lot of coverage

And would be expected to get more seats in Scotland, too?

cordially,
Scofflaw

A Dub in Glasgo

ewan whose army wrote: »

Salmond gets a lot of coverage

Not UK wide coverage. ITV news, Sky news & BBC news report things from an English perspective which is understandable as England is the bigger part of the union but the BBC especially has a requirement not to be biased. Farage has dominated the air time from those 3.

Frank Lee Midere

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Not UK wide coverage. ITV news, Sky news & BBC news report things from an English perspective which is understandable as England is the bigger part of the union but the BBC especially has a requirement not to be biased. Farage has dominated the air time from those 3.

Sigh. On my twitter feed there was a determined effort to discredit UKIP for weeks. All of this is clearly people deciding to ignore the message. I posted on here a few weeks ago that UKIP were getting more working class votes, and was poo pooed by posters who suggested that it was all colonel mustards. But look at the North East and North West. My twitter feed is full of people denouncing the "11%", saying nothing has changed, dismissing the voters as loons. Mostly these guys are labour supporters ( I joined when I was there) and some are elected reps. They don't seem to get that a lot of their own supporters up t'north either swayed to UKIP fully or voted labour in the locals - where UKIP got 17% - and voted UKIP in the euros where they got 30%.

Calling your own supporters swivel eyed loons is a mistake.

A Dub in Glasgo

I have not called any of the supporters swivel eyed loons! The NE & NW were SNP & Labour heartlands!

The final tally will probably be

UKIP - 24
Labour - 20
Tory - 19
Greens - 3
SNP - 2
Sinn Fein - 1
Liberal Democrats - 1
UUP - 1
DUP - 1
PC - 1

Scofflaw

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Sigh. On my twitter feed there was a determined effort to discredit UKIP for weeks. All of this is clearly people deciding to ignore the message. I posted on here a few weeks ago that UKIP were getting more working class votes, and was poo pooed by posters who suggested that it was all colonel mustards. But look at the North East and North West. My twitter feed is full of people denouncing the "11%", saying nothing has changed, dismissing the voters as loons. Mostly these guys are labour supporters ( I joined when I was there) and some are elected reps. They don't seem to get that a lot of their own supporters up t'north either swayed to UKIP fully or voted labour in the locals - where UKIP got 17% - and voted UKIP in the euros where they got 30%.

Calling your own supporters swivel eyed loons is a mistake.

However accurate it may be - I mean, I'd cheerfully say it about the Greens. Many of my fellow supporters are swivel-eyed loons. Same is true for all parties, because the majority of voters actually do follow Churchill's dictum about the average voter being the best argument against democracy.

But by virtue of that very fact, saying it specifically about anyone who supported UKIP is sticking one's head in the sand. What UKIP means may be up for debate, but it's a real thing, not some fit of inexplicable collective eye-swivelling.

cordially,
Scofflaw

jank

Well regardless of the council elections the European elections can be classified as a political earthquake. I wonder will this make a referendum on membership of the EU a certainty.

On a side note, why are parties such as the SNP and Sinn Fein (which are nationalistic parties) OK yet parties like UKIP and the Finns First are deemed bad when they all share similar outlooks on national pride. Is it that left wing nationalism is OK but right wing nationalism is not?

A Dub in Glasgo

jank wrote: »

. I wonder will this make a referendum on membership of the EU a certainty.

Yes

On a side note, why are parties such as the SNP and Sinn Fein (which are nationalistic parties) OK yet parties like UKIP and the Finns First are deemed bad when they all share similar outlooks on national pride. Is it that left wing nationalism is OK but right wing nationalism is not?

They do not share the same outlook, have a look at the policies

blastman

SNP and Sinn Fein (for all their faults) don't blame immigrants for society's ills (well, the Shinners probably do blame one particular nation of foreigners )

jank

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Sigh. On my twitter feed there was a determined effort to discredit UKIP for weeks. All of this is clearly people deciding to ignore the message. I posted on here a few weeks ago that UKIP were getting more working class votes, and was poo pooed by posters who suggested that it was all colonel mustards. But look at the North East and North West. My twitter feed is full of people denouncing the "11%", saying nothing has changed, dismissing the voters as loons. Mostly these guys are labour supporters ( I joined when I was there) and some are elected reps. They don't seem to get that a lot of their own supporters up t'north either swayed to UKIP fully or voted labour in the locals - where UKIP got 17% - and voted UKIP in the euros where they got 30%.

Calling your own supporters swivel eyed loons is a mistake.

I would agree with that sentiment in general. The level of high horsed pontificating found online and in the media regarding UKIP and other similar parties is eye watering.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/23/ukip-success-local-elections-two-party-system-crisis

jank

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Yes



They do not share the same outlook, have a look at the policies

In regards Europe they are the same, Nationalist, isolationist and anti-EU. Has Sinn Fein ever backed a EU treaty? Where they differ is economically.

SeanW

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

PC - 1

Quick question - who are "PC?"

Scofflaw

jank wrote: »

Well regardless of the council elections the European elections can be classified as a political earthquake. I wonder will this make a referendum on membership of the EU a certainty.

I wouldn't think they make it even a tiny bit more likely. Sinn Fein have opposed EU treaties, but not called for our withdrawal from the EU. They're probably best described as 'eurocritical':

According to Cllr Eoin Ó Broin, who set out the party platform, the manifesto is best-described as “Euro-critical”. Sinn Féin was neither Eurosceptic nor Europhile and assessed policies on a case-by-case basis, he said.


Fiscal surveillance

Adams spoke about making the commission more accountable to the European and national parliaments. Deputy leader Mary Lou McDonald spoke against increased European budget surveillance, saying such “interference” had put Ireland on a “very, very dangerous” track.

While similarly minded campaigners in other countries are agitating for withdrawal from the EU, South candidate Liadh Ní Riada said that it is not what the party has in mind.

“Certainly I don’t think we’d be going saying, ‘look we should have a referendum on whether we pull out of Europe or not’. We’re in it now and we have to get the best deal possible for Ireland,” she said.

In Sinn Féin’s view, that should embrace more European Investment Bank aid and new deals on the debts of Allied Irish Banks, Bank of Ireland and the defunct Anglo Irish Bank. It also called for the defence of workers’ pay and conditions and for a fairer distribution of Common Agricultural Policy funding.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sinn-f%C3%A9in-manifesto-rails-against-eu-yes-men-1.1792651

jank wrote: »

On a side note, why are parties such as the SNP and Sinn Fein (which are nationalistic parties) OK yet parties like UKIP and the Finns First are deemed bad when they all share similar outlooks on national pride. Is it that left wing nationalism is OK but right wing nationalism is not?

Left wing nationalism rarely revolves around racism or xenophobia - nobody could call Sinn Fein or the SNP racist. Right wing nationalism generally does.

People can obviously feel free to start sputtering indignantly, but it should be clear that the reason right wing nationalist parties get accused of racism isn't their nationalism or their right-wing nature, since neither left-wing nationalists nor non-nationalist right-wing parties attract that particular charge. They walk like ducks, quack like ducks, and people who don't want to believe they're ducks are the only ones who don't want them called ducks.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ewan whose army

SeanW wrote: »

Quick question - who are "PC?"

Plaid Cymru

Welsh Nationalists

ewan whose army

Scofflaw wrote: »

Left wing nationalism rarely revolves around racism or xenophobia - nobody could call Sinn Fein or the SNP racist. Right wing nationalism generally does.

Neither are racist, but Nationlism does attract the somewhat dodgy kind of people. I mean SF vote is still very much down to whatever sect of Christianity you are born into and the SNP have the likes of Souter funding them (just incase nobody knows, Souter is a fundie Christian who tried to get Section 28 brought back into Scotland. As a result I refuse to travel on Stagecoach his company)

ewan whose army

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Not UK wide coverage. ITV news, Sky news & BBC news report things from an English perspective which is understandable as England is the bigger part of the union but the BBC especially has a requirement not to be biased. Farage has dominated the air time from those 3.

Is it really though, Scotland has its own TV, and on STV and BBCS he is always on there, well him and Sturgeon. We have regional TV for that reason. Living in Ireland with UPC I get UTV and the NI Beeb and the DUP/SF/Alliance people are all on there.

I don't get why Farage gets the media converge. ITs probably also the fault of Clegaronband for not putting much effort into getting coverage. One thing I will say about Farage is he is excellent at getting noticed. All his pub PR makes him relatable to the average punter around the pub, unlike Milliband etc. who look out of touch posh boys.

Scofflaw

ewan whose army wrote: »

Neither are racist, but Nationlism does attract the somewhat dodgy kind of people. I mean SF vote is still very much down to whatever sect of Christianity you are born into and the SNP have the likes of Souter funding them (just incase nobody knows, Souter is a fundie Christian who tried to get Section 28 brought back into Scotland. As a result I refuse to travel on Stagecoach his company)

The North's religious divide happens to coincide largely with the nationalist/unionist divide, but the sectarianism-for-the-sake-of-it generally seems to me to be on the unionist side.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ewan whose army

Scofflaw wrote: »

The North's religious divide happens to coincide largely with the nationalist/unionist divide, but the sectarianism-for-the-sake-of-it generally seems to me to be on the unionist side.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Ironically the unionists that most of the UK can't stand

LuckyLloyd

Farage gets coverage because he is relatively dynamic as UK politicians go in terms of charisma. Excellent at sound bytes and, crucially, those sound bytes have hit a nerve in public sentiment in regards to the EU.

Seeking to deny or limit coverage is never the way to go anyway. Farage and UKIP need to be taken on straight up. What election results are demonstrating across a number of EU states is that the politics of assigning illigitemacy does not work.

jank

Scofflaw wrote: »

I wouldn't think they make it even a tiny bit more likely. Sinn Fein have opposed EU treaties, but not called for our withdrawal from the EU. They're probably best described as 'eurocritical':

Well that is Sinn Fein playing both sides in my opinion and just riding populist anti-eu sentiment. Easy to blame the EU for your domestic troubles sometimes and no doubt the bailout fanned those flames. However, even Marxist Sinn Fein recognise the good that being members of the European trading block has done us in regards in ward investment, even if they rarely admit it.

However, my point stands. Have Sinn Fein ever advocated for a yes vote on a EU treaty? If that is a no, then that to me is a resounding proof of them being Anti-EU.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Left wing nationalism rarely revolves around racism or xenophobia - nobody could call Sinn Fein or the SNP racist. Right wing nationalism generally does.

I would generally agree but I would definitely call Sinn Fein Xenophobic against Britain/England for obvious reasons.

oscarBravo

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sinn Fein have opposed EU treaties, but not called for our withdrawal from the EU. They're probably best described as 'eurocritical':

What I've always found wryly entertaining about Sinn Féin's position on the EU is that they always seem to be campaigning in favour of the last treaty they opposed. While campaigning for a "no" vote to Lisbon, their argument was that the EU was working fine under the Nice treaty. While campaigning for a "no" to Nice, they told us they were completely in favour of the EU as defined by Amsterdam...

ewan whose army

jank wrote: »

I would generally agree but I would definitely call Sinn Fein Xenophobic against Britain/England for obvious reasons.

Its not really different to the UKIP xenophobia aimed at Romania etc. I am English and the problems were nothing to do with me, any of my family or anyone I know.

It was the elite who did everything, its the same with UKIP, they focus on Romania etc. but the problems come from Westminster not Europe

Scofflaw

jank wrote: »

Well that is Sinn Fein playing both sides in my opinion and just riding populist anti-eu sentiment. Easy to blame the EU for your domestic troubles sometimes and no doubt the bailout fanned those flames. However, even Marxist Sinn Fein recognise the good that being members of the European trading block has done us in regards in ward investment, even if they rarely admit it.

Effectively, their stance admits it - and as far as I recall, they're more visibly pro-EU in the North, because the unionists are anti-EU.

jank wrote: »

However, my point stands. Have Sinn Fein ever advocated for a yes vote on a EU treaty? If that is a no, then that to me is a resounding proof of them being Anti-EU.

I wouldn't. As oscar says, they're effectively in favour after the fact. I don't see opposing treaties in itself as eurosceptical - to use a reductio, if one believed that the current EU was the best of all possible EUs, then clearly one would be opposed to any new treaty while being as deeply as possible europhilic.

jank wrote: »

I would generally agree but I would definitely call Sinn Fein Xenophobic against Britain/England for obvious reasons.

Mm, no. Xenophobia is an unreasoned fear/loathing of foreigners - most particularly, at foreigners who are really felt to be foreign and unfamiliar, as opposed to what you might call "familiar foreigners". A historically based dislike for a specific and entirely familiar nation is entirely different.

Think about what Farage said about Romanians, the famous "would you want them living next to you?" line. Essentially, no reasons were given for not wanting that, although dark allusions were made to child trafficking. When challenged why it was different from having Germans living next to you, the snapped response of "you know perfectly well why" is an exact illustration of xenophobia - Romanians are unfamiliar foreigners, and the reason they're different from Germans is really no more than that. Germans are 'familiar foreigners', Romanians (or even worse, Roma) are culturally unfamiliar. The unease that Farage taps into there is xenophobia pure and simple.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

ewan whose army wrote: »

Its not really different to the UKIP xenophobia aimed at Romania etc. I am English and the problems were nothing to do with me, any of my family or anyone I know.

It is quite different. An Irish nationalist is unlikely to dislike you personally, because as you say "the problems were nothing to do with me, any of my family or anyone I know". They would take against you if you supported continued British government in Northern Ireland, but that's a political dislike, and it would apply the same (or more) if you were Irish.

ewan whose army wrote: »

It was the elite who did everything, its the same with UKIP, they focus on Romania etc. but the problems come from Westminster not Europe

I think the difference with the SF point of view is that it was the British elite, and it was Westminster who caused the problems SF oppose.

That's not to say there's not a standard streak of anti-establishment rhetoric there.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lastlight.

ewan whose army wrote: »

What achievements? All he does is do PR in a Pub, dodge questions about his policies and look smug.

As a MEP he has hardly sat in Brussels missed key votes about things that would effect the UK.

Taking a party like UKIP and fighting off the smears and the Establishment and getting them to win a national election. An extraordinary achievement. Not to mention they have changed the debate in British politics.

He is an incredible leader.

Scofflaw

Lastlight. wrote: »

Taking a party like UKIP and fighting off the smears and the Establishment and getting them to win a national election. An extraordinary achievement. Not to mention they have changed the debate in British politics.

He is an incredible leader.

I don't think his leadership skills are anything to be amazed at. He is UKIP, he's more or less the single public face of the organisation, and a large part of his "leadership" appears to consist of explaining how the latest swivel-eyed madness from the rank and file of the party is nothing to do with him.

He's a charismatic individual, and a skilled self-publicist who rides the celebrity wagon very well, but the fact that without him UKIP would be in the toilet is a tribute to those facts rather than his leadership skills.

cordially,
Scofflaw

DubVelo

He seems pretty swivel-eyed to me.

ewan whose army

Scofflaw wrote: »

It is quite different. An Irish nationalist is unlikely to dislike you personally, because as you say "the problems were nothing to do with me, any of my family or anyone I know". They would take against you if you supported continued British government in Northern Ireland, but that's a political dislike, and it would apply the same (or more) if you were Irish.

Thats not really xenophobia then.

UKIP are different I guess , they seem to hate anyone who isn't from the UK

Lastlight.

Scofflaw wrote: »

I don't think his leadership skills are anything to be amazed at. He is UKIP, he's more or less the single public face of the organisation, and a large part of his "leadership" appears to consist of explaining how the latest swivel-eyed madness from the rank and file of the party is nothing to do with him.

He's a charismatic individual, and a skilled self-publicist who rides the celebrity wagon very well, but the fact that without him UKIP would be in the toilet is a tribute to those facts rather than his leadership skills.

cordially,
Scofflaw

His leadership skills are outstanding. He has tapped into something in British politics which many of the other parties didn't go near. He brought the discussion of uncontrolled immigration and the European Union to the front of British politics.

So much so that even David Cameron is changing policy like the promised EU referendum because of UKIP. When Farage talks, people listen and like him and can relate to him in many ways.

When Ed Miliband talks, that isn't the case.

Scofflaw

ewan whose army wrote: »

Thats not really xenophobia then.

UKIP are different I guess , they seem to hate anyone who isn't from the UK

That will get you the answer "but Farage is married to a German" as if that proved UKIP doesn't run on xenophobia.

There's probably some kind of scale on which you can place UKIP relatively exactly:

1. they don't like unfamiliar foreigners at all - not even European ones like Romanians.

2. they dislike "familiar foreigners" (like the Germans) less, but...

3. ...they don't like them en masse

4. ...they don't want to have to trust them in a cooperative framework

I'm not sure about racism as such, but the above reflects the policy position of the party.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Lastlight. wrote: »

His leadership skills are outstanding. He has tapped into something in British politics which many of the other parties didn't go near. He brought the discussion of uncontrolled immigration and the European Union to the front of British politics.

So much so that even David Cameron is changing policy like the promised EU referendum because of UKIP. When Farage talks, people listen and like him and can relate to him in many ways.

When Ed Miliband talks, that isn't the case.

None of that has anything to do with leadership, though.

cordially,
Scofflaw