Nigel Farage MEP

TheLastLazyGun

Boskowski wrote: »

He's one of those Brits living in the past or pandering to those who do.

You mean that the Brits living in the present are the ones who, like the Irish Government, do as they are told by their EU masters no matter how detrimental it would be to the country and its economy and do not care that their country is run by a group of unelected foreigners who care nothing about Britain, care nothing about democracy and are completely oblivious to the real world, as shown by their whining and whingeing that nasty, evil Cameron in Westminster and nasty, evil Farage in Brussels won't allow them to increase the Brussels' budget and increase their salaries, meaning that Britain's contribution to the EU coffers will go up when British taxpayers and those around the rest of Europe are having to tighten their belts?

You swivel-eyed, frothy-mouthed Europhiles need to realise that Euroscepticism is, thankfully, the mainstream view amongst the British public now and, if no EU in/out referendum is forthcoming by the 2015 General Election (a referendum in which, I'm show, the British voters will vote to leave the EU), then UKIP will only continue to rise and rise, making the Tories more and more worried.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

I'm afraid it's my own experience that rational discussion with British Eurosceptics on Irish boards is rather pointless. Too many of them are simply agents provocateurs.

IMO, you can judge internet proponents of Farage and UKIP in exactly the same way as you can judge UKIP themselves. Their track record on Ireland is rather pathetic. Some Dubliners would have directly witnessed their pathetic 'canvassing' stunt on O'Connell Street during Lisbon 2. Not to mention the truly risible 'Respect the Ahrish No' stunt in the EP where they dressed up leprechaun-style in green T-shirts. Like they give a damn about Ireland. :pac:

You fail to mention why you Irish were told by the EU to vote in "Lisbon 2" in the first place.

It's because in "Lisbon 1" you gave the answer that your EU masters didn't want you to give: i.e. a big, fat "NO".

So what did your EU masters do? Make you vote again until you gave them the "right" answer: i.e. "YES".

Yet the Irish do no seem overly concerned at the EU's disgraceful and disturbing snub to Irish democracy. You all, like the "Good Europeans" that you are, meekly went back to the polls and made sure you all voted the way your EU masters wanted you to vote in the second referendum.

If that had happened in Britain - the EU making us all vote again in a referendum because we had the audacity to give the "wrong" answer" - there'd be marches of protest in London and people will be going over to the EU parliament in Brussels to thrown paint at passing MEPs.

Yet you Irish don't like to show that you are "Bad Europeans" like your British neighbours so, to show that you are good boys and girls, you meekly accept the EU's two-fingered gesture to Irish democracy and make sure you behave yourselves and do what your EU masters tell you like all "Good Europeans" should.

And then when members of UKIP are standing on your soil demonstrating, quite justifiably, about the EU's disregard to Irish democracy and the opinions of the Irish people you call it a "pathetic canvassing stunt".

The only thing that's pathetic is the Irish people's shameful obedience of everything their EU masters tell them to do.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

And then when members of UKIP are standing on your soil demonstrating, quite justifiably, about the EU's disregard to Irish democracy and the opinions of the Irish people you call it a "pathetic canvassing stunt".

The only thing that's pathetic is the Irish people's shameful obedience of everything their EU masters tell them to do.

*Yawn*

UKIP 'demonstrating' against Lisbon on Dublin streets was a bit more than a 'pathetic canvassing stunt', I suppose. In its own way it helped turn a few votes the Yes direction! Thanks Noige.

Looking forward to a UK referendum on EU membership. Be careful what you wish for. You may have to change your name to EIP in pretty short order.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

Looking forward to a UK referendum on EU membership.

So am I. Because I'm certain we'll vote to leave the EU and then we can start proceedings to leave this godforsaken monstrosity and run our own country ourselves, like any normal, free, sovereign state.

TheLastLazyGun

By the way, UKIP did very well in the three by-elections the other day.

They finished SECOND behind Labour in both Middlesbrough and Rotherham and they finished third behind Labour and the Conservatives in Croydon North.

In Rotherham, the Tories finished FIFTH behind Labour, UKIP, BNP and Respect in that order, and the Liberal Democrats finished EIGHTH behind Labour, UKIP, BNP, Respect, the Conservatives, the English Democrats and an Independent.

Labour may have won in Rotherham but they lost votes to UKIP, with a 7.13% swing from Labour to UKIP. This not only reflects the Euroskeptic views of the people of Rotherham but also shows their anger at the Labour-controlled council taking foster children from a couple just because they happened to be members of UKIP.

In Croydon North, the Liberal Democrats finished fourth, finishing behind Labour, the Conservatives and UKIP.

All this shows that UKIP have definitely supplanted the Liberal Democrats as Britain's third party and are a rising force in British politics, reflecting the growing Euroskepticism of the British people.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

So am I. Because I'm certain we'll vote to leave the EU and then we can start proceedings to leave this godforsaken monstrosity and run our own country ourselves, like any normal, free, sovereign state.

Your understanding of 'sovereignty' seems to me to be a little out if date in the post-WW2 world.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with wanting to plough your own furrow. But in Britain's case, you just can't seem to let go of the comfort blanket of the outdated and fracturing 'special relationship'. It's a pity really because Britain has a lot of strengths. But they just don't seem to be able to come to terms with Germany and France.

British Euroscepticism is pure negative knee-jerk posturing at this point. The stabilisation of the Euro will expose many of the weaknesses in the British model, not least its inequality. Those inequalities may well lead to the fracturing of the UK itself. If so, England will continue its slow decline into international irrelevance as the Eurozone develops an economically and environmentally more stable approach to business, society and politics.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

By the way, UKIP did very well in the three by-elections the other day.

They finished SECOND behind Labour in both Middlesbrough and Rotherham and they finished third behind Labour and the Conservatives in Croydon North.

In Rotherham, the Tories finished FIFTH behind Labour, UKIP, BNP and Respect in that order, and the Liberal Democrats finished EIGHTH behind Labour, UKIP, BNP, Respect, the Conservatives, the English Democrats and an Independent.

Labour may have won in Rotherham but they lost votes to UKIP, with a 7.13% swing from Labour to UKIP. This not only reflects the Euroskeptic views of the people of Rotherham but also shows their anger at the Labour-controlled council taking foster children from a couple just because they happened to be members of UKIP.

In Croydon North, the Liberal Democrats finished fourth, finishing behind Labour, the Conservatives and UKIP.

All this shows that UKIP have definitely supplanted the Liberal Democrats as Britain's third party and are a rising force in British politics, reflecting the growing Euroskepticism of the British people.

Unlike Libertas here, UKIP are an organised party.

Like Libertas, UKIP's agenda is largely populist and negative. So their appeal will have a limited lifespan as British politics corrects its imbalances.

Ironically, any further success for UKIP will be at the expense of the Tories, and likely to benefit Labour (and a more constructive attitude to the EU) - a kind of British Ross Perot, if you will.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

Your understanding of 'sovereignty' seems to me to be a little out if date in the post-WW2 world.

Try telling that to the 83% of the world's countries which are sovereign, independent states, free from the meddling hands of pointless EU meddling and bureaucracy which stifles economic growth.

Britain needs to leave the EU and become a free, independent state once more, run by elected British MPs rather than unelected foreigners who care nothing of Britain.

But in Britain's case, you just can't seem to let go of the comfort blanket of the outdated and fracturing 'special relationship'.
It's a pity really because Britain has a lot of strengths. But they just don't seem to be able to come to terms with Germany and France.

The United States is more of a friend and ally to Britain than France, Germany, Ireland and our other so-called EU "allies" will ever be.

Britain needs OUT of the EU and it needs to forge closer links to our TRUE friends and allies in the Commonwealth and the United States, of which we have much more in common.

British Euroscepticism is pure negative knee-jerk posturing at this point.

Codswallop. The British are, rightly, angered by, amongst other things, EU bureaucrats telling us that the EU budget needs to be increased so that hard-pressed British taxpayers, who are having to tighten their belts, have to pay even more to inefficient French farmers (we pay four times more to wealthy French farmers than to poor African ones) and to give EU bureaucrats a pay rise.

Once the EU ever starts inhabiting the real world - if it's at all possible - then maybe the British will start being less Euroskeptic,

The stabilisation of the Euro will expose many of the weaknesses in the British model, not least its inequality.

The Euro will never stabilise. It's a doomed currency which will not last beyond 2015 and Britain was RIGHT to keep the pound despite Europhiles like yourselves telling us that Britain would suffer as a result.

If so, England will continue its slow decline into international irrelevance

Yet England will be a free, sovereign state running its own affairs, unlike Ireland, which will forever be cowtowing to its German masters.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

Try telling that to the 83% of the world's countries which are sovereign, independent states, free from the meddling hands of pointless EU meddling and bureaucracy which stifles economic growth.

... most of whom are in pretty bad shape or subject to the whims of a regional powerhouse.

The EU has no role in meddling in Asia (look, e.g. to China) or Latin America (look to the US). So this aspect of your post is a total non sequitur.

As it happens, most of the EU member states are at the top of the international economic tree. Of course quite a lot of them see a strategic advantage in pooling resources and sovereignty by legal consent in the EU, and especially the EZ, to get more bang for their 'buck' (or in most cases their 'Euro').

The UK isn't obliged to be in either arrangement. If the voters want do exit the EU, that's their business. [When push comes to shove, I don't think they will.] But if it does, the EU and the EZ will develop regardless.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

The United States is more of a friend and ally to Britain than France, Germany, Ireland and our other so-called EU "allies" will ever be.

Britain needs OUT of the EU and it needs to forge closer links to our TRUE friends and allies in the Commonwealth and the United States, of which we have much more in common.

There may be cultural solace in the Anglosphere. But that's really only a kind of isolationism. In reality, the US is changing beyond recognition. In a couple of decades, the US won't give a toss about an insular and isolated UK. WASPs will be in a distinct minority there, and the US will be focussed on Asia. So much for friends.

As for continental Europe, the UK would IMO be greatly misguided in pulling away from the relationship forged by post-war British politicians up to Thatcher's time. For a while the UK had a chance to develop something other than their divide and conquer diplomatic approach. But since Thatcher, the UK seems to have got itself into a funk particularly about the Germans.

It seems the Germans have been economically vindicated by maintaining a strong manufacturing base. Britain on the other hand has been utterly skewed by its over-reliance on services, especially of the financial sort. Germany has been economically pulling ahead of Britain for decades now, and many insular Brits just don't like it. So now they want to retreat into Fortress Britain.

It's a pretty defensive attitude, and I doubt it will serve Britain well in the future. Still, it's your call.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

Codswallop. The British are, rightly, angered by, amongst other things, EU bureaucrats telling us that the EU budget needs to be increased so that hard-pressed British taxpayers, who are having to tighten their belts, have to pay even more to inefficient French farmers (we pay four times more to wealthy French farmers than to poor African ones) and to give EU bureaucrats a pay rise.

'Rightly'? More like self-righteously.

The UK has above-average EU income. In a club like the EU with social funds, it is always going to be a net contributor. That's the kind of solidarity that underpins the EU, albeit on a very modest level. And it's not just British tax-payers who are hard pressed.

At any rate, the EU budget is peanuts. It's bureaucracy is tiny. The increase being sought is rather trivial. Which is not to say there shouldn't be oversight. But I think most people get the idea that by helping less developed EU regions a greater benefit will accrue to all in the future.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

The Euro will never stabilise. It's a doomed currency which will not last beyond 2015 and Britain was RIGHT to keep the pound despite Europhiles like yourselves telling us that Britain would suffer as a result.

It's stabilising as we speak. There are very strong economies behind the Eurozone, and there is strong political will to make it work. I'm confident the Euro is here for the long haul.

See you at the end of 2015 and we'll see who's right.

At that point you'll probably find that Sterling is a marginal currency, and the markets might even have a go at it to make a profit on the UK's economic imbalances. I'd say the prospect of a market run on Sterling will be greatly increased by a referendum on EU membership. A vote to exit will be manna to hedge funds and other speculators. Enjoy! :pac:

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

Yet England will be a free, sovereign state running its own affairs, unlike Ireland, which will forever be cowtowing to its German masters.

Well, Ireland took its independence so it wouldn't have to kowtow to Westminster. I'd guess most Irish people would take the view that our economic interests are best served by voluntary involvement in a diversified legal order like the EU.

As to your comment about 'German masters', quite a few of you chaps are rather obsessed by them. It's quite some inferiority complex many British have about them. Sure, the Germans are pretty successful economically and politically. And they're playing an absolute blinder on the EZ crisis.

With all the negativity on display in London, it seems you boys are going to be among the really big losers when the Euro finally finds its internal balance. And the Germans, and those others who have democratically joined the currency, will reap a political and economic dividend.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

While we welcome robust debate, please avoid personalizing your comments. You can address the contents of someone's post without criticizing the individual.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

Like Libertas, UKIP's agenda is largely populist and negative. So their appeal will have a limited lifespan as British politics corrects its imbalances.

I can't see what's negative about wanting independence from the EU, wanting to cut immigration, wanting to bring back grammar schools and wanting to increase defence spending.

UKIP's agenda is largely populist

No, it isn't. It's largely popular.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

... most of whom are in pretty bad shape

And the EU, especially the Eurozone - the Sick Man of the World - isn't?

The EU has no role in meddling in Asia (look, e.g. to China) or Latin America (look to the US).

It meddles in Britain's affairs.

As it happens, most of the EU member states are at the top of the international economic tree.

The EU and most of its member states are in terminal decline.

Britain needs to leave the Titanic that is the EU and forge closer economic links and ties with our TRUE friends and allies in the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth has just overtaken the Eurozone in terms of share of the world's economy. It is the Commonwealth where Britain's future should lie, not the sclerotic and dying EU.

the EU and the EZ will develop regardless.

The EU and, especially, the Eurozone are in terminal decline. The Euro will not live much beyond 2015 and, despite the scaremongering perpetrated by the swivel-eyed Europhile loons ten years ago, Britain's decision to stay out of the Euro and keep the Pound was one of the best decisions this country has ever made.

The EU, meanwhile, is slowly collapsing and falling apart and it doesn't have much of a future. Britain needs to leave the EU Titanic before the iceberg finally takes it, and its member states (including Ireland should the Irish be stupid enough to stay onboard), down forever.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

In a couple of decades, the US won't give a toss about an insular and isolated UK.

There is nothing insular and isolated about a country which is a member of the Commonwealth, an organisation which consists of 53 member states compared to the EU's 27 and which includes almost a third of the entire world's population.

Britain's future lies with this economically vibrant assoiation, not with the rest of Europe. Europe has had its day.

It seems the Germans have been economically vindicated by maintaining a strong
manufacturing base. Britain on the other hand has been utterly skewed by its over-reliance on services, especially of the financial sort. Germany has been economically pulling ahead of Britain for decades now, and many insular Brits just don't like it. So now they want to retreat into Fortress Britain.

Is that the same Germany which is just going back into recession whilst at the same time Britain has just come out of it? Whilst Britain grows next year Germany, France and the Eurozone as a whole will be shrinking again.

And many economists agree that it's only a matter of time before Britain overtakes Germany to become the largest economy in Western Europe. Germany isn't helped by the fact that its population is shrinking, whereas Britain's is going and will one day become bigger than Germany.

Britain's economy is also expected to France's by 2016.

and I doubt it will serve Britain well in the future.

That's what you Europhiles said ten years ago when we decided to keep the Pound.

However it turned out that you were wrong about that and we were right.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

It's stabilising as we speak. There are very strong economies behind the Eurozone, and there is strong political will to make it work. I'm confident the Euro is here for the long haul.

See you at the end of 2015 and we'll see who's right.

At that point you'll probably find that Sterling is a marginal currency, and the markets might even have a go at it to make a profit on the UK's economic imbalances. I'd say the prospect of a market run on Sterling will be greatly increased by a referendum on EU membership. A vote to exit will be manna to hedge funds and other speculators. Enjoy! :pac:

I can't believe I'm being lectured on economics by a citizen of the Eurozone.

Britain was RIGHT to stay out of the Euro, despite the scaremongering perpetrated by the Europhile weirdos.

An it will also be good for Britain to leave the EU, despite the scaremongering by Europhile weirdos.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

Well, Ireland took its independence

Only for fifty years though. All that bloodshed to gain independence only to give it up again just half a century later. It's quite pathetic really.

so it wouldn't have to kowtow to Westminster.

And then you swapped rule by Westminster for rule by Brussels.

I'd guess most Irish people would take the view that our economic interests are
best served by voluntary involvement in a diversified legal order like the EU.

Anyone who receives loads of money from the EU are going to like it, aren't they?

Your views would be different, though, were you a net CONTRIBUTOR to the EU rather than a net subsidy junkie.

As to your comment about 'German masters', quite a few of you chaps are rather
obsessed by them.

Yet we don't meekly take orders from them like you Irish do.

And our non-existant "obsession" with the Germans would only be just like the obsession the Irish have with the British.

It's quite some inferiority complex many British have about them.

The British don't have an inferiority complex about a country we beat twice in 30 years for our country's freedom and democracy, despite the best attempts of the Germans yet again to change all that.

Sure, the Germans are pretty successful economically and politically.

Yet Germany will be in recession in 2013 - unlike Britain.

With all the negativity on display in London, it seems you boys are going to be
among the really big losers when the Euro finally finds its internal balance.

Yet more Europhile scaremongering which will, as always, eventually be proved to be wrong.

There's a big wide world out there, pal. There are over 200 countries in this world and the planet doesn't revolve around 17 has-beens in the world's most economically stagnant club.

The Euro will not find its "internal balance". The Euro is finished. It's on its way out and deciding on not joining that disastrous and doomed currency is the best thing that Britain did.

will reap a political and economic dividend.

Well, I can't see where this "political and economic dividend" is going to come from. The Euro had been a complete and utter disaster so far and I cannot see how that is going to change.

The British were right to say "No, thanks" to it.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

TheLastLazyGun banned for a week.

LincolnsBeard

I agree with everything Lazy Gun said. Superb posting.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

The British don't have an inferiority complex about a country we beat twice in 30 years for our country's freedom and democracy, despite the best attempts of the Germans yet again to change all that.

By any objective analysis, in WW1 the Allied powers [not Britain] defeated the Central European powers [including Germany].

In WW2, the Russians were far and away the party most responsible for the defeat of the Nazis. Britain was hardly at the races [although they manfully defended their own territory].

No cigar, LLG.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

Yet Germany will be in recession in 2013 - unlike Britain.

You mean the 'Britain' that has already been in recession *twice* during the current crisis?

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

Well, I can't see where this "political and economic dividend" is going to come from. The Euro had been a complete and utter disaster so far and I cannot see how that is going to change.

Once firmly established, I think the Euro will be rapidly perceived globally as a sustainable economic arrangement - with policies of balancing budgets, controlling inflation, maintaining international competitiveness and regulating finance.

Countries that stick with old ways of doing business like budget deficiting, inflating out of debt and slashing public spending will quickly fall behind the EZ both economically and socially.

mlumley

LincolnsBeard wrote: »

I agree with everything Lazy Gun said. Superb posting.

+1 with that.

Now back to topic?

Nigel for PM. He's a great man.

walrusgumble

shanered wrote: »

What are everybodies views on this guy?
I've been watching his videos on youtube and I do have to say I'm very impressed by him.
I know I might be opening a can of worms here by mentioning him as he quite a character but I'd like to here all views on him and them being discussed.

The guy can't even get a seat in Westminister. If the Brits reject him, why should we admire him?

bob50

walrusgumble wrote: »

The guy can't even get a seat in Westminister. If the Brits reject him, why should we admire him?

I do think at a bye election or at the next general election he will win a seat for ukip

HowsAboutThis

Nigel says how it is.

Similarly, Daniel Hannan.

McDave

HowsAboutThis wrote: »

Nigel says how it is.

Similarly, Daniel Hannan.

Farage says what some people want to hear.

Similarly, Hannan.

NAP123

walrusgumble wrote: »

The guy can't even get a seat in Westminister. If the Brits reject him, why should we admire him?

Surely you don,t just admire people who are elected to Westminister.

Murderers, paedophiles, fraudsters, spies, as well as heroes and patriots have sat in Westminister.

Of course we are blessed to have a Mannequin as Taoiseach.