Nigel Farage MEP

MrD012

meglome wrote: »

Anyone who thinks leaving the EU would be in Ireland's interests is very foolish indeed.

so I'm foolish when I look at the Republic of Singapore , an Independent Sovereign Country similar in size and population to Ireland thats not part of any common currency or political union and yet is listed in the top 5 GDP per Capita Economies of the world by the IMF and World Bank ?

The Corinthian

MrD012 wrote: »

so I'm foolish when I look at the Republic of Singapore , an Independent Sovereign Country similar in size and population to Ireland

Singapore (710 km2) is similar in size to Ireland (70,273 km2)?

MrD012

Boskowski wrote: »

He will appeal to all those who think the EU is just a vehicle for Germany building the Fourth Reich while finding it totally acceptable if Britain were doing this instead.

Hold on a minute , the man wants an Independent Sovereign Britain , therefore if he achieves this explain to me how on earth is he building a Fourth Reich , the Fourth Reich is all about expansion and ruling over other countries .

Scofflaw

MrD012 wrote: »

so I'm foolish when I look at the Republic of Singapore , an Independent Sovereign Country similar in size and population to Ireland thats not part of any common currency or political union and yet is listed in the top 5 GDP per Capita Economies of the world by the IMF and World Bank ?

I used to go in and out of Singapore quite a bit in the late 90s/early 00s, and they were looking to us to see what we were doing. Of course, that was before we decided that we could get rich by selling each other property rather than through hard work.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Coyler

MrD012 wrote: »

so I'm foolish when I look at the Republic of Singapore , an Independent Sovereign Country similar in size and population to Ireland thats not part of any common currency or political union and yet is listed in the top 5 GDP per Capita Economies of the world by the IMF and World Bank ?

Are you talking about the same Singapore that in is a member of ASEAN and that the US has rights to use its air bases and naval ports?

I'm sorry but "Independent Sovereign Country" is meaningless. As stated previously on this forum repeatedly, the other examples often used by eurosceptics are Switzerland and Norway and they are described as fax democracies by their own politicians. They simply just aren't independent. No country is. Even the mighty US has to negotiate with the EU to gain access to the Common Market. What do you believe Ireland will succeed in gaining by not being in the EU seeing as other major economies do see a benefit forging closer relationships?

Even if I was to cast aside all the political relaties for Singapore, it's not successful due to any perceived independence, it's successful because what it has to offer the US and China, its largest trading partners. What it has to offer is very cheap services due to very low income tax and crime. This leads to no safety net for the poor which I'm not sure you could sell as a good thing to the average Irish person. The crime issue lead to questions of its freedom of speech and such powers as performing random drug tests on all citizens and caning for immigration violations. I'll safely assume you'll find similar friction here as well. Would you like to know how the labour laws compare?

Look, leaving the EU is certainly possible but you need to spell out what exactly the alternative is. The euroscpetic Tories are finding the same problem in the UK where public opinion has actually flipped since this issue came to the forefront and those alternatives suddenly change from being simple soundbites to granular policies. Claiming that if we leave the EU will result in us becoming Singapore, albeit an idealised one, needs to be backed up with a little bit of rigor and not wishful thinking.

The Corinthian

I must say that I find amusing the notion that Ireland could be like Singapore.

Last time I was there, I'll never forget a street sign I saw showing a woman with children going down an escalator, with two business men chatting at the bottom and blocking her path. The strap-line was 'Inconsideration Has Consequences'. And there are consequences.

And that's the thing about Singapore, it's clean and all works like clockwork, but there's a price for that. Everywhere you'll see signs warning you that eating or drinking or smoking in that particular public area will result in a hefty fine. You can't even get chewing gum there unless you have a prescription for it. No wonder William Gibson once described it as "Disneyland with the Death Penalty".

But no doubt we'll take to that kind of lifestyle without problem...

Scofflaw

The Corinthian wrote: »

I must say that I find amusing the notion that Ireland could be like Singapore.

Last time I was there, I'll never forget a street sign I saw showing a woman with children going down an escalator, with two business men chatting at the bottom and blocking her path. The strap-line was 'Inconsideration Has Consequences'. And there are consequences.

And that's the thing about Singapore, it's clean and all works like clockwork, but there's a price for that. Everywhere you'll see signs warning you that eating or drinking or smoking in that particular public area will result in a hefty fine. You can't even get chewing gum there unless you have a prescription for it. No wonder William Gibson once described it as "Disneyland with the Death Penalty".

But no doubt we'll take to that kind of lifestyle without problem...

Yeah...Orchard Road. You can't see any cops on Orchard Road, but all that means is you can't see them. The only real similarity with Ireland is the close business-government nexus at the top of the pile.

Clean, though....

cordially,
Scofflaw

MrD012

Coyler wrote: »

I'm sorry but "Independent Sovereign Country" is meaningless. They simply just aren't independent. No country is.

of course the republic of singapore is independent.

Singapore became an independent republic on 9 August 1965.Singapore's economy has grown by an average of nine percent each year. By the 1990s, the country had become one of the world's most prosperous nations, with a highly developed free market economy , strong international trading links, and the highest per capita gross domestic product in Asia outside of Japan.

you see you are confusing "trade agreements" with "political union" , it is not a requirement to have a political union in order to establish trading links , they are two complete different things , In singapore the people have supreme independent authority over the kind of society they want to live in , the public servants that they elect to carry out their wishes have complete control and freedom to carry said wishes and thus it is an independent sovereign state whereas in Ireland the same cannot be said , EU law supersedes all constitutional law and our public servants are not 'free' to carry out the wishes of those who elected them , they must at every stage be given permission from higher powers whether that be in Brussels , Frankfurt or Berlin .

Aso Singapore has managed to stay very strong through every economic depression because they have supreme control over their own currency

The Corinthian

MrD012 wrote: »

Aso Singapore has managed to stay very strong through every economic depression because they have supreme control over their own currency

Did the numerous replies that pointed out the huge difference between Singapore and Ireland pass you by, or have you convinced yourself that you can still use an example with little or no similarity to Ireland, in your argument, anyway?

Scofflaw

The Corinthian wrote: »

Did the numerous replies that pointed out the huge difference between Singapore and Ireland pass you by, or have you convinced yourself that you can still use an example with little or no similarity to Ireland, in your argument, anyway?

His opinions appear to exist without reference to facts in the first place - it's hard to see why he would be concerned by other people pointing out facts.

cordially,
Scofflaw

McDave

darkhorse wrote: »

Is a weasel someone who tells the truth, if so, thats exactly what he is.

So Nigel has been forced to tell the truth about his elitist behaviour in channelling large sums o money into his little offshore education trust wheeze. But that we all had that kind of money to squirrel away.

McDave

shanered wrote: »

Well I truly believe that the politicians we've had over the last good few years have been dreadful. None stood up against Europe in any sense, shape or form. we've been a pushover and hence half the woes of our current recession.
The last few treaties have been double voted in because the Paymasters and the puppets didn't like our democratic vote.
Bit of a farce in my view.
I have to say I respect the way Nigel has the balls to stand up against the powers that be such as the EU president and others.
Also think he is right about whatever he is talking about from any clips of him I can find.
I dont see many Irish politicians of his caliber, though we're not famous for good politicians at this stage are we?

Where do you stand on Nigel's use of offshore vehicles to channel large sums of money? Sounds like Nigel is quite happy to hang with the elite and their elitist ways when it suits him.

No, Farage is no better than the snout-in-trough politicians he supposedly excoriates.

shanered

McDave wrote: »

I don't subscribe to the 'default' school of thinking. Regrettably the real damage was done by the frontloading of a decade's worth of growth into the spending of the Ahern-McCreevy-Cowen bubble years. And the utter failure to put any brakes on the entire financial system - whether they be pirate banks, 'systemic' banks, building societies or even credit unions.

I can't personally blame Noonan for a problem he didn't cause. Hence you'll forgive me if I don't see the irony you see yourself. The link between Farage and Noonan is, I'm afraid, simply too tenuous for words.

What are you talking about, a problem he didn't cause?
He is a minister for finance.
Its like asking a plumber to fix up a house with bad pipework. Its already bad and is going to continue to get worse unless somebody does something about it.

Look, Farage availed of tax breaks in his own country, doesn't sound like as remotely on the same scale as the crimes against people that will eventually end happening due the actions and posturing of some senior officials.

Availing of tax "havens" like Isle of Man is minescule and on a different level then the way that the EU is making laws and expanding its control financially and politically over a vast amount of countries with a steamroller approach to democratic votes such as Nice and Lisbon treaties where we Irish need a second vote so that we can "understand".

darkhorse

McDave wrote: »

But that we all had that kind of money to squirrel away.

Try politics.

McDave

darkhorse wrote: »

Try politics.

Seems to work for Farage in the EP. Nice little earner.

McDave

shanered wrote: »

What are you talking about, a problem he didn't cause?
He is a minister for finance.
Its like asking a plumber to fix up a house with bad pipework. Its already bad and is going to continue to get worse unless somebody does something about it.

Look, Farage availed of tax breaks in his own country, doesn't sound like as remotely on the same scale as the crimes against people that will eventually end happening due the actions and posturing of some senior officials.

Availing of tax "havens" like Isle of Man is minescule and on a different level then the way that the EU is making laws and expanding its control financially and politically over a vast amount of countries with a steamroller approach to democratic votes such as Nice and Lisbon treaties where we Irish need a second vote so that we can "understand".

Noonan didn't cause Ireland's economic collapse. That's clear enough.

As for Farage and his little offshore wheeze, that puts him firmly in the company of the elites. Should play well with those who complain the EU is a gravy train for the privileged few, eh? Good old Noige. Man of the people.

As for EU 'crimes' and 'steamrollers', you're losing the plot a little bit there, aren't you.

darkhorse

McDave wrote: »

Seems to work for Farage in the EP. Nice little earner.

Yeah, I think he should do it for nothing.

McDave

darkhorse wrote: »

Yeah, I think he should do it for nothing.

I doubt he'd be interested if there was nothing on offer!

IrishWelshCelt

MrD012 wrote: »

Hold on a minute , the man wants an Independent Sovereign Britain , therefore if he achieves this explain to me how on earth is he building a Fourth Reich , the Fourth Reich is all about expansion and ruling over other countries .

Do you not see the irony in that Farage and UKIP want to leave the EU as they dont want a powerful centralised government that makes decisions for a union of countries which has no say in the matter yet he and his party champion the british system?

McDave

IrishWelshCelt wrote: »

Do you not see the irony in that Farage and UKIP want to leave the EU as they dont want a powerful centralised government that makes decisions for a union of countries which has no say in the matter yet he and his party champion the british system?

With a further irony that he has no support whatsoever in Scotland, and would be better off calling his party EIP.

shanered

McDave wrote: »

As for EU 'crimes' and 'steamrollers', you're losing the plot a little bit there, aren't you.

Never mentioned crimes, just that seem to have blatant disregard to our democracy such as was the respect given to our referenda. I would come close to calling the whole banking fiasco a crime although.
As to losing the plot, I think anybody who feels the whole EU European ideology and system is working fine and that Ireland is perfectly fine continuing its present course in the EU is losing the plot in my opinion.

View

shanered wrote: »

Never mentioned crimes, just that seem to have blatant disregard to our democracy such as was the respect given to our referenda.

Ah, "blant disregard" means the electorate exercised their right to make decisions you disagree with, right?

shanered

If I believe in it or not doesn't even come into it, its more what the EU as an institute trys to push on us and when we say no, it doesn't mean anything until they get their way.
Its the fact that No doesn't mean No when they are looking to pass something, but when a yes comes along its all gravy.
It was just after we voted no to the lisbon treaty that we fell into all this forgein bondholder debt, and we were presented with economic meltdown and told the only way is to vote yes.
Look , its not that I didn't want the decision, which I didn't, its just the way they go about it, its an absolute disgrace in my opinion.

View

shanered wrote: »

If I believe in it or not doesn't even come into it, its more what the EU as an institute trys to push on us and when we say no, it doesn't mean anything until they get their way.
Its the fact that No doesn't mean No when they are looking to pass something, but when a yes comes along its all gravy.

That's not an EU issue though. That's a domestic issue since it's up to the Oireachtas whether or not to call a referendum (whether it be a first or a second referendum).

Were "the EU" as insistent on "getting their way" as you imagine they would presumably have insisted a long time ago that we get rid of the political (but not necessarily constitutional) requirement to hold referenda on all bar the most minor of EU Treatiies, right?

Essentially you're complaining about the fact that the Oireachtas exercised the option to refer an issue to the people a second time - an option that only exists because the people approved the constitution with that possibility in it.

As to why the Oireachtas does so - constitutionally it is up to the government of the day to negotiate on behalf of Ireland. If they come away with what they regard as "the best deal available for Ireland" they are not going to walk away from that easily. For, unlike their domestic critics, they were privy to the negotiations and hence know what options were in practice available at the time.

And, yes, if we are supposedly unhappy with what our government is negotiating for us then that is again a domestic issue. The other governments aren't there to guess what we are unhappy about. That is up to us to figure out and communicate to our government during the negotiation process and it needs to be something concrete not "We don't like 'stuff"".

shanered

The was pressure on our government to force the issue I'm sure of it, it came along as extreme financial pressure to when we where told to pay off the bondholders between the first and second referendum.
Do you honestly that the EU central bank and senior EU officials had any part to play during our banking crises?
Do you believe this was the crucial factor for pushing us into voting yes?
I understand why you are saying it is a domestic matter, but I honestly believe the screw was being turned at a level higher than domestic in my opinion.

BlitzKrieg

As pointed out there would have been more effective ways of *tightening the screws* then the Lisbon debacles...

Scofflaw

shanered wrote: »

The was pressure on our government to force the issue I'm sure of it, it came along as extreme financial pressure to when we where told to pay off the bondholders between the first and second referendum.
Do you honestly that the EU central bank and senior EU officials had any part to play during our banking crises?
Do you believe this was the crucial factor for pushing us into voting yes?
I understand why you are saying it is a domestic matter, but I honestly believe the screw was being turned at a level higher than domestic in my opinion.

The "pay the (remaining) bondholders" pressure from the ECB came in 2010, as a condition of our bailout, not between the two Lisbon referendums. Bondholders were being paid off from 2008-2010 courtesy of Lenihan's blanket guarantee, which meant that failure to pay any bondholders or other creditors would have triggered the guarantee.

Of the two periods, the one where decision were made nationally was characterised by 100% repayment of every bondholder no matter how junior their debt was, while the ECB-instituted regime post-bailout was characterised by 100% repayment of remaining senior bondholders only, while junior bondholders were given significant haircuts amounting to €16bn.

FF have done a strikingly good job of promoting almost the exact opposite of the truth.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Cody Pomeray

That's not quite so.

There were "liability management exercise" which amounted to buybacks, in 2009 at Anglo, and again on the 21st of October 2010.

The first buyback was pretty straightforward. The latter was a bit more bloody. At the latter date, which preceded the troika programme, junior bondholders were sent a letter warmly inviting them to offer their bonds for exchange at 20c in the €1, on the stated condition that they convene a bondholders' meeting to cancel the terms of the outstanding bonds, or face an alternative of 0.00001c in the €1.

This is, effectively, what a hard default is.

All but 8% of junior bondholders accepted the offer. While there was a legal challenge by Assenagon, that became irrelevant at the wind-up, and the remaining 8% effectively got wiped out altogether.

McDave

From earlier in the thread:

shanered wrote: »

Never mentioned crimes, just that seem to have blatant disregard to our democracy such as was the respect given to our referenda. I would come close to calling the whole banking fiasco a crime although.
As to losing the plot, I think anybody who feels the whole EU European ideology and system is working fine and that Ireland is perfectly fine continuing its present course in the EU is losing the plot in my opinion.

McDave

And earlier still!

shanered wrote: »

What are you talking about, a problem he didn't cause?
He is a minister for finance.
Its like asking a plumber to fix up a house with bad pipework. Its already bad and is going to continue to get worse unless somebody does something about it.

Look, Farage availed of tax breaks in his own country, doesn't sound like as remotely on the same scale as the crimes against people that will eventually end happening due the actions and posturing of some senior officials.

Availing of tax "havens" like Isle of Man is minescule and on a different level then the way that the EU is making laws and expanding its control financially and politically over a vast amount of countries with a steamroller approach to democratic votes such as Nice and Lisbon treaties where we Irish need a second vote so that we can "understand".