NBA Offseason Thread 2012-2013

ButtersSuki

Great read, though it's still only one side. I'm a Celtics fan and gutted Ray Ray left, but the fact that he went to Miami makes it worse for me (I do care where he went). I thought the possibility of him going to the Lakers was bad, but the Heat tops that. :mad:

Still baffled as to how bad the Rondo thing must have been given the fan base in Boston, the halving of his salary going to Miami (versus what the C's were offering) and his kid being close to the Boston Hospital etc.

Disagree with Doc on Allen off the bench, but hey, he knows a lot more than me about how they were shaping up in practice etc.

It will really suck to see him play for THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paully D

This was from during the season but still funny :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLk_xspfkx4

Paully D

Dwight Howard trade is finally done, here's the details of the four team trade:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8254119/sources-dwight-howard-los-angeles-lakers-four-team-deal-complete

A four-team trade that would send Dwight Howard to the Los Angeles Lakers is complete, multiple sources told ESPN on Thursday night.

A source with direct knowledge of the talks told ESPN.com's Marc Stein the Lakers will receive Howard, the Denver Nuggets will acquire Andre Iguodala, the 76ers will receive Andrew Bynum and Jason Richardson, and the Magic will get Arron Afflalo, Al Harrington, Nikola Vucevic and one protected future first-round pick from each of the other three teams.

A four-team trade that would send Dwight Howard to the Los Angeles Lakers is complete, multiple sources told ESPN on Thursday night. A look at what each team will receive if the NBA approves the deal:

Sources close to the process told Stein and ESPNLosAngeles.com's Ramona Shelburne that a trade call with the league office has been scheduled for Friday to secure the necessary NBA approval to make the deal official.

Lakers forward Pau Gasol had been in and out of talks, sources told Shelburne.

Earlier Thursday, Yahoo! Sports, citing sources, reported that talks of a four-team trade involving Howard have taken place this week and have "grown serious."

Sources told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard that Philadelphia has not spoken to Bynum or his representatives, and has no assurances he will sign a long-term extension with the team.

"The Sixers are willing to take a shot (without Bynum's commitment)," one source said.

Although Bynum signing an extension with the 76ers is not out of the question, according to a source, his stance all summer has been he only will sign an extension with the Lakers.

Bynum, who grew up about an hour away from Philadelphia in Plainsboro, N.J., could sign a three-year, $60 million extension this season or wait to become a free agent after the season and be eligible for a five-year, $102 million deal.

Near the end of July, Howard met with Magic general manager Rob Hennigan and reiterated he still wants to be traded, and if he isn't, will leave the team as a free agent after next season.

The Lakers' position on Howard has remained relatively unchanged for the past few months, league sources familiar with the situation told ESPNLosAngeles.com. The Lakers always have been willing to trade for Howard without assurances he'd re-sign with them after the season, believing that once Howard experienced a championship culture, he would want to stay.

What do you all think of that deal then?

The Lakers will be a scary, scary proposition next season!

ButtersSuki

Paully D wrote: »

Dwight Howard trade is finally done, here's the details of the four team trade:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8254119/sources-dwight-howard-los-angeles-lakers-four-team-deal-complete

A four-team trade that would send Dwight Howard to the Los Angeles Lakers is complete, multiple sources told ESPN on Thursday night.

A source with direct knowledge of the talks told ESPN.com's Marc Stein the Lakers will receive Howard, the Denver Nuggets will acquire Andre Iguodala, the 76ers will receive Andrew Bynum and Jason Richardson, and the Magic will get Arron Afflalo, Al Harrington, Nikola Vucevic and one protected future first-round pick from each of the other three teams.

A four-team trade that would send Dwight Howard to the Los Angeles Lakers is complete, multiple sources told ESPN on Thursday night. A look at what each team will receive if the NBA approves the deal:

Sources close to the process told Stein and ESPNLosAngeles.com's Ramona Shelburne that a trade call with the league office has been scheduled for Friday to secure the necessary NBA approval to make the deal official.

Lakers forward Pau Gasol had been in and out of talks, sources told Shelburne.

Earlier Thursday, Yahoo! Sports, citing sources, reported that talks of a four-team trade involving Howard have taken place this week and have "grown serious."

Sources told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard that Philadelphia has not spoken to Bynum or his representatives, and has no assurances he will sign a long-term extension with the team.

"The Sixers are willing to take a shot (without Bynum's commitment)," one source said.

Although Bynum signing an extension with the 76ers is not out of the question, according to a source, his stance all summer has been he only will sign an extension with the Lakers.

Bynum, who grew up about an hour away from Philadelphia in Plainsboro, N.J., could sign a three-year, $60 million extension this season or wait to become a free agent after the season and be eligible for a five-year, $102 million deal.

Near the end of July, Howard met with Magic general manager Rob Hennigan and reiterated he still wants to be traded, and if he isn't, will leave the team as a free agent after next season.

The Lakers' position on Howard has remained relatively unchanged for the past few months, league sources familiar with the situation told ESPNLosAngeles.com. The Lakers always have been willing to trade for Howard without assurances he'd re-sign with them after the season, believing that once Howard experienced a championship culture, he would want to stay.

What do you all think of that deal then?

The Lakers will be a scary, scary proposition next season!

Great trade for all teams - except the Magic. Crazy they gave him up for so little, ESP. When you consider that Denver got half the Knicks for Melo 18months ago. If the 76ers can keep Bynum, it's a fantastic trade for them as they are so young and have a great coach.

Lakers favourites next year?

padraig_f

Good thing we have that CBA that stops stars teaming up in big markets, eh?

Yeah the Lakers are gonna be scary. I make them favourites for the title I think. I always thought the Heat performed relatively badly against the Magic because of Howard's presence in the paint, it turned them into much more of a jump-shooting team (Orlando were 2-2 against them last year). And people think of Howard as the defensive stopper but he also scores 20 points/game, and will have Nash throwing him alley-oops now.

Unbelievably bad trade for the Magic. I thought they'd either get good picks or a star player. They didn't get a star and didn't get good picks, just protected picks from good teams. I'd have let him play out his contract instead of doing that. Every other trade possibility I heard was better than this one.

Good trade for the 76ers, they'll be a force in the East next year.

GoldFour4

Magic screwed themselves really. Brooklyn is more then likely furious that their offer wasn't accepted.

Also Paully, you really need to get to sleep earlier :P

GoldFour4

Holy crap wasn't really paying attention to posts above me. Thought the trade would stay the same as it had been around 2am, Gasol was meant to go to Orlando. This is massive for the Lakers. They're starting 5 is Nash, Bryant, artest, Gasol and Howard. Hopefully the role players can step it up for them now.

ButtersSuki

Still can't believe how bad this trade is for Orlando, esp. when you consider the Houston and Brooklyn no-deals.

Howard has behaved appalingly thoughout this whole process so I can understand the Magic just wanting rid at this stage, but FFS you can do a better trade than this guys with pretty much any other team in the League! This trade involved 3 All Stars and yet none of them end up with the Magic who give up the biggest jewel in the crown. Bonkers. This is almost as bad as Shaq walking.

Lakers will be scarily good (and big) next year if all the parts gel. The bigs in particular will give them a huge advantage if they face the Heat in the Finals as the post remains pretty much the only visible weakness in the Heat game....I'm looking at you Chris Bosh!

ButtersSuki

from si.com
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/lee_jenkins/08/10/lakers-strike-again-with-howard-trade/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a0

padraig_f

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Still can't believe how bad this trade is for Orlando, esp. when you consider the Houston and Brooklyn no-deals.

Yep, and if Bynum is leaving the Lakers, why didn't the Magic just do a straight swap, Bynum for Howard?

I heard they didn't like that Bynum would be a free-agent next year, but I thought Orlando would've had a good chance to keep him. Warm weather in Florida, no state taxes, he'd be the man there, they'd be building the team around him. And they'd have his Bird rights, so he could re-sign for more money with the Magic than anyone else. If they lose him, ok they'd be starting from scratch, but that's what they're doing now anyway.

ButtersSuki

padraig_f wrote: »

Yep, and if Bynum is leaving the Lakers, why didn't the Magic just do a straight swap, Bynum for Howard?

I heard they didn't like that Bynum would be a free-agent next year, but I thought Orlando would've had a good chance to keep him. Warm weather in Florida, no state taxes, he'd be the man there, they'd be building the team around him. And they'd have his Bird rights, so he could re-sign for more money with the Magic than anyone else. If they lose him, ok they'd be starting from scratch, but that's what they're doing now anyway.

+1
So much of this makes no sense from the Magic's point of view. You'd have to think this just became a "just get rid of him" decision, rather than a business one.

Howard has zero credibility left after all of this. Hard to beliieve that anyone could ever handle switching teams as badly as LeBron and "The Decision", but his behaviour thoughout this has been worse. Loyalty T-shirt sales should be through the roof in Orlando today (for burning).

krustydoyle

Like i said in an earlier post when Nash signed with the Lakers that possible line up is scary good.. then they go and add Howard.. Ok they lose Bynum but Howard is the best center in the league and hes only 25.

I know im getting ahead of myself but the Lakers are def favs for the title now..

Nash Kobe

Howard


Gasol Meta W.P


Now thats even scarier.

Paully D

I know the vast majority are pretty down on Orlando after this trade, but does no one think it will set them up nicely for an Oklahoma City Thunder style rebuild?

They now have a lot of cap space, 3 first round picks and 2 second round picks to work with. Of course they will be atrocious for a few seasons, but longer term things may not be so bad if they can make the right picks in the draft. Trades with the Nets for Lopez and Lakers for Bynum seem far more attractive, but at the end of the day I can understand why they weren't keen on trading the best centre in the league to a team they would have to play 4 times a season and if they take Bynum they wouldn't be too far off what they were with Howard.

I mean, the way things stand there's a seriously good chance they go into next seasons lottery with the best chance of getting the first pick in the 2013 draft. Even if they wind up getting someone like Shabazz Muhammad, Nerlens Noel, or James Michael McAdoo in 2013 and then get someone like the brilliant 2014 prospect Andrew Wiggins the following year (check this guy out if you haven't already, he will be immense, LeBron has been raving about him) it will have been a pretty good trade.

Personally I think you just have to accept they'll do badly for a couple of seasons at least and judge this trade properly in 2015 when we see what the Magic got with their picks.

Of course by then the Lakers and Howard may have won 2 titles and I don't agree with how Howard has conducted himself in all of this at all, but looking further away from the image of a spoiled brat that Howard has created for himself, in fairness the Magic had 8 seasons to put the pieces around him and made a mess of it quite a lot. He did very well for them and got them to an NBA finals, a conference finals, helped them win their division a number of times and is the franchises leading points scorer. Although things have ended badly I don't think the Magic could argue that Howard hasn't done extreme well for them since he joined in 2004. When all is said and done it's probably the right time for him to move as a player and for the Magic to move on as a franchise and rebuild. It's just a shame from their point of view that things have happened the way they have, thanks to Howard acting the way he has. Maybe he should have honoured his contract and avoided all this bad feeling but this way the Magic get some picks and a decent shot in the draft to rebuild.

On to the Lakers, I agree with those that say they become favourites for the title. Nash, Bryant, Artest, Gasol and Howard is frightening. Like Padraig has mentioned, the Heat have generally struggled against the Magic largely down to Howard's presence. With the other pieces around him they will have a great shot at the title. I think the western conference comes down to Lakers vs Oklahoma which the Lakers will win IMO and the east will be won at a canter by Miami. That would be a cracking finals. It's safe to say LeBron, D Wade and Bosh won't be happy with what the Lakers have managed to assemble anyway!

leggo

#Depressed.

padraig_f

Derrick Rose just joined twitter, first tweet:

I want to wish everyone on @USAbasketball good luck today. Bring home the gold! Wish I could be out there with you all #teamusa #olympics

What a class guy.

Mikeyt086

ButtersSuki

Had this thought over the weekend but didn't get a chance to post it until now....

Picture this....

Bynum does his year with the 76ers, then re-signs with the Lakers (:eek:) making them HUGE up front, or the Heat (:eek:) filling a big hole in the center. Leave aside all the maturity/ego issues, he's a big time player with big time numbers.

Scary if either can make it work finanically.

GoldFour4

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Had this thought over the weekend but didn't get a chance to post it until now....

Picture this....

Bynum does his year with the 76ers, then re-signs with the Lakers (:eek:) making them HUGE up front, or the Heat (:eek:) filling a big hole in the center. Leave aside all the maturity/ego issues, he's a big time player with big time numbers.

Scary if either can make it work finanically.

Scary but not even remotely financially possible. The Heat and Lakers would both have to trade one of their stars to have the cap room. Bynum is getting a max deal regardless of the team he;s on.

ButtersSuki

malachyscott wrote: »

Scary but not even remotely financially possible. The Heat and Lakers would both have to trade one of their stars to have the cap room. Bynum is getting a max deal regardless of the team he;s on.

Not as far fetched as you'd think, I think Miami would trade Bosh for Bynum in a heartbeat.

And I did say if they could make it work financially. But, you never know......

GoldFour4

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Not as far fetched as you'd think, I think Miami would trade Bosh for Bynum in a heartbeat.

And I did say if they could make it work financially. But, you never know......

Philly wouldn't take that trade though. They'd want a mega deal, something Miami can't offer.

ButtersSuki

malachyscott wrote: »

Philly wouldn't take that trade though. They'd want a mega deal, something Miami can't offer.

Not their (Philly's) choice at the end of the day, Bynum can effectively walk (he's in the same position now as Howard would have been in come 12 months had he stayed with the Magic). The risk Philly took in the trade was that they can woo Bynum enough in his season with them to make him want to stay long term.

The problem for Miami will be the salary cap, so off-loading Bosh makes total sense to free up that space and replace him with Bynum - be that on a trade or just cut him. And it has to be Bosh as there's no-one else paid enough to make a difference on that team after LeBron, Wade and Bosh.

Miami will have to get bigger in the short-medium term to challenge the Lakers front line. Bynum is the most obvious target given he's free in 12 months.

nerd69

i could see bynam considering the celtics as an f u to the lakers for trading him

Paully D

Seen these statistics on Twitter the other night:

Steve Nash's pass out of the pick and roll to the roll man scored 60% of the time, which is top out of those with a minimum of 100 possessions. Dwight Howard scored on pick and rolls 74% of the time, which is also the best in the league. So literally the Lakers have the best pick and roll point guard and the best pick and roll finisher in the NBA. But, if you thought it would be OK to just not commit to Nash and guard Howard, well then Nash has a 54% shooting percentage in that situation. Also, you can't trap because if you do Nash will lob to Howard, you can't guard the lob because if you do then Nash has Kobe and Gasol with open looks.

They fit really well on paper, but of course games aren't won on paper. Providing they don't end up killing each other (Kobe and Howard could be toxic in the same dressing room, but then you've got one of the best leaders around in Nash) and don't suffer injuries to key players at crucial times (how will Howard's back hold up for instance) then I think they win it all next year. When was the last time an NBA team had a 4th best player as good as Pau Gasol? It's scary.

nerd69

Paully D wrote: »

Seen these statistics on Twitter the other night:

Steve Nash's pass out of the pick and roll to the roll man scored 60% of the time, which is top out of those with a minimum of 100 possessions. Dwight Howard scored on pick and rolls 74% of the time, which is also the best in the league. So literally the Lakers have the best pick and roll point guard and the best pick and roll finisher in the NBA. But, if you thought it would be OK to just not commit to Nash and guard Howard, well then Nash has a 54% shooting percentage in that situation. Also, you can't trap because if you do Nash will lob to Howard, you can't guard the lob because if you do then Nash has Kobe and Gasol with open looks.

They fit really well on paper, but of course games aren't won on paper. Providing they don't end up killing each other (Kobe and Howard could be toxic in the same dressing room, but then you've got one of the best leaders around in Nash) and don't suffer injuries to key players at crucial times (how will Howard's back hold up for instance) then I think they win it all next year. When was the last time an NBA team had a 4th best player as good as Pau Gasol? It's scary.

kobe and howard seem like polar opposites but i cant see it being a problem as both want to win a title so bad

the lakers look good but you have to consider the heat have the all time leading 3 point shooter to space the floor for lebron and wade who now have the monkey off there back and lebron in particular played lights out in the playoffs wade did well considering everything he was goin through but with that over he can only improve

on top of that you have the thunder a year older and there finals experience will stand to them

the bulls if they have rose back can challenge anyone even with the players they've lost

and the 76ers i feel are improved big time off this trade also bynam has a chip on his shoulder now i think this will stand to him and help sort out his issuse and richardson should help reduce the drop off from iguodala

the lakers have huge potential from this trade but i feel its not as big as people are saying heres my issues

steve nash
(im a huge fan of nash but he cant defend and although every year people have said this he is getting along and its only a matter of time before he drops off)

kobe
(its hard to bet against the mamba but at this stage hes playing with no knees i like that he showed at the olympics that hes willing to fit around a team instead of making the team fit around him but this also shows even he himself is starting to see his limits)

metta world peace
(god only knows what to expect no point in guessing because he could very well kick a ref in the first game and be out for the year im a fan but who knows what will happen)

Gasol
(again im a fan but he knows the team dont want him and that counts for a lot)

Howard
(out with a back injury for the start of the year and hes coming back around christmas to huge expectations on a body that will possibly still be limited his injury will count for more due to his size and rough style of play and while a big defensive upgrade over bynam he leaves a lot to be desired still as a free throw shooter and to a slightly lesser extent in general offense)



im not saying they cant win it i just think people are going over the top with it....also this should get some angry responses from lakers fans thats always good for a debate

ButtersSuki

Not a Lakers fan (Celtics all the way), but some comments on the above.

steve nash
(im a huge fan of nash but he cant defend and although every year people have said this he is getting along and its only a matter of time before he drops off) doesn't need to be a good defender off the dribble with the league's best shot-blocker behind him. Drops off? Not likely. Along with Allen, you'll always hear other pros talk about how fit he is and how good shape he is always in.

kobe
(its hard to bet against the mamba but at this stage hes playing with no knees i like that he showed at the olympics that hes willing to fit around a team instead of making the team fit around him but this also shows even he himself is starting to see his limits) a true compeitior (and willing to get down and dirty (in every sense of that)) to win

metta world peace
(god only knows what to expect no point in guessing because he could very well kick a ref in the first game and be out for the year im a fan but who knows what will happen) not by any means the crucial part of the team, but there's no team in the league that wouldn't take him if he were available. He's one of those guys you hate to play against, but would love to have on your team.

Gasol
(again im a fan but he knows the team dont want him and that counts for a lot)
Not true. They kept him in the Howard trade and that will mean a lot and a big vote of confidence to him. I know there's a lot of Gasol haters out there (often for non-basketball reasons) but he can seriously play - he showed glimpses of this in the Olympic Final where he owned the 3rd quarter. He's had to share the ball with Kobe (no eay feat) since he's been in LA, and yes, they did try and trade him, but it's pro sports, you gotta be a bit tougher than that. On any night he's a 20 and 10 guy. Have you seen him play in the flesh? He has some serious post moves, is tougher than given credit for and can rebound.

Howard
(out with a back injury for the start of the year and hes coming back around christmas to huge expectations on a body that will possibly still be limited his injury will count for more due to his size and rough style of play and while a big defensive upgrade over bynam he leaves a lot to be desired still as a free throw shooter and to a slightly lesser extent in general offense) Only potential weakness is free throws down the stretch, but how many games are genuinely decided by that? He will not be the go to guy on offence if the Lakers need a score in the last minute and they sure will keep the ball out of his hands so he can't be fouled if the Lakers are up. Not a huge issue IMO.

I accept your point that Miami are deeper with Jesus Shuttlesworth, but not as deep as LA, and nowhere near as big. And LA have serious options now in the 4/5 positions, which remain Miami's weakest areas both in terms of size and ability.

nerd69

steve nash
(im a huge fan of nash but he cant defend and although every year people have said this he is getting along and its only a matter of time before he drops off) doesn't need to be a good defender off the dribble with the league's best shot-blocker behind him. Drops off? Not likely. Along with Allen, you'll always hear other pros talk about how fit he is and how good shape he is always in.
nash is very different to ray allen both keep themselves in shape but allen spots up and shoots nash dribbles and dribbles and dribbles it takes a lot more out of you

kobe
(its hard to bet against the mamba but at this stage hes playing with no knees i like that he showed at the olympics that hes willing to fit around a team instead of making the team fit around him but this also shows even he himself is starting to see his limits) a true compeitior (and willing to get down and dirty (in every sense of that)) to win
so was jordan did you see him with the wizards i have the utmost respect for kobe but when you carry a franchise to that extent it takes a tole

metta world peace
(god only knows what to expect no point in guessing because he could very well kick a ref in the first game and be out for the year im a fan but who knows what will happen) not by any means the crucial part of the team, but there's no team in the league that wouldn't take him if he were available. He's one of those guys you hate to play against, but would love to have on your team.
no argument with his ability just his temperament seems like a nice guy but hes gona miss time hopefully its mid season when it wont be to problematic

Gasol
(again im a fan but he knows the team dont want him and that counts for a lot)
Not true. They kept him in the Howard trade and that will mean a lot and a big vote of confidence to him. I know there's a lot of Gasol haters out there (often for non-basketball reasons) but he can seriously play - he showed glimpses of this in the Olympic Final where he owned the 3rd quarter. He's had to share the ball with Kobe (no eay feat) since he's been in LA, and yes, they did try and trade him, but it's pro sports, you gotta be a bit tougher than that. On any night he's a 20 and 10 guy. Have you seen him play in the flesh? He has some serious post moves, is tougher than given credit for and can rebound.
dont get me wrong i love his ability but they did trade him last season and i think tried to this year but other teams wanted bynam over him of coarse it could go the other way and he could end up playing out of his skin using this as a chip on his shoulder
Howard
(out with a back injury for the start of the year and hes coming back around christmas to huge expectations on a body that will possibly still be limited his injury will count for more due to his size and rough style of play and while a big defensive upgrade over bynam he leaves a lot to be desired still as a free throw shooter and to a slightly lesser extent in general offense) Only potential weakness is free throws down the stretch, but how many games are genuinely decided by that? He will not be the go to guy on offence if the Lakers need a score in the last minute and they sure will keep the ball out of his hands so he can't be fouled if the Lakers are up. Not a huge issue IMO.
in the playoffs a lot of games come down to free throws because there so tight it matters more than ever when one game can decide matters my main issue with howard is not really his ability we all know what he can do but what hes gona be like when he comes back he takes a pounding so he could aggravate the injury easily or find it hard to play the same style for a while you have this season and maybe next before nash and kobe have to start going down hill after that i think the lakers will get him complimentary pieces far better than the magic did but thats an unknown

I accept your point that Miami are deeper with Jesus Shuttlesworth, but not as deep as LA, and nowhere near as big. And LA have serious options now in the 4/5 positions, which remain Miami's weakest areas both in terms of size and ability. [/QUOTE]
for the most part i agree with you i would definitely have them as a serious contender and a top 2 or 3 favourite to win it outright but there to many questions for me to say outright there favourites any team can have an injury but if nash or kobe in particular get injured its going to be far harder for them to recover given how they've pushed there bodies over the years

GoldFour4

you analyse the living hell out of the lakers team but its success will come down to whether or not Kobe learns to share the ball. Nash has to be the playmaker. There shouldn't be a possession where Kobe is bringing the ball up the court. The pick and roll had the potential to be sensational if the team blends. Metta World Peace could take more wide open 3's then anyone else in the nba next year. He's a good shooter but still the 5th offensive option for them.

stuchyg

For people questioning Howards back, im willing to bet my house that his back is fully healed come opening night tip off, imagine he wasnt rushing back to play for Magic with any sort of pain in it

Paully D

Good read from Woj here on Manu Ginobli and Argentina:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--basketball-world-owes-manu-ginobili-and-argentina-debt-of-gratitude-.html

LONDON – Ten years ago, San Antonio Spurs general manager R.C. Buford walked into a steak house in Indianapolis, leaned into a private dining room, and witnessed Manu Ginobili and the brokenhearted Argentine silver medalists gathered at a long table for dinner. Children bounced on knees, wives and girlfriends chatted, and the fiber of a 2004 Olympic gold medalist strengthened itself in the aftermath of basketball's '02 world championships.

Argentina had delivered the United States its first loss in the post-Dream Team era, sending a ragged and motley Team USA tumbling toward sixth place and a well-deserved moment of global reckoning. USA Basketball had no system, no soul, no vision. The program had collapsed under the weight of its own neglect and hubris, a sense of entitlement that ultimately met its international match with a relentless band of brothers out of Argentina.

Argentina had long been a good team, but Manu Ginobili's emerging greatness promised to make them champions. He was daring and fearless, alive with a fervor and an innate sense of duty and obligation for the greater good of his basketball teams.

"The American guys had limousines lined up at the team hotel to get out of Indy as soon as they could," Buford said by phone from San Antonio this week. "The way the Argentines played, the passion they had for their national program, the way that they cared about each other, was something that was clearly missing with the U.S. program."

A senior USA Basketball official, Sean Ford, happened to be at the restaurant in July 2002, and the scene of the Argentine team stayed with him. As much as any national team on the planet, Argentina's rise to relevance demanded something closer to a revolution than a response stateside. Jerry Colangelo and Mike Krzyzewski were hired, Kobe Bryant and Jason Kidd were recruited, and truer training camps and feeder systems were installed.

Make no mistake: Argentina became a blueprint for the United States on its re-ascension to dominance. Yes, talent mattered, but so did culture, and no one has embodied team the way that Argentina has with Ginobili as the best player and leader. Another Spur, Fabricio Oberto, taught Ginobili on the national team, and he's passed it down, too.

Ten years later, Ginobili, 35, is on the cusp of saying goodbye to international basketball, but his legacy is unparalleled in this Olympic basketball tournament. On his way out, he's still averaging the most points, steals, and holding the highest efficiency ranking of these Games. He's still going to the floor and chasing loose balls, a national hero with the spirit to honor that Argentine uniform and flag.

As a young boy, Ginobili watched Maradona win the World Cup for Argentina in '86, but Ginobili turned out to be his country's Michael Jordan.

"It would be a little arrogant if I say that we are a blueprint of the USA Basketball," Ginobili told Yahoo! Sports. "But I think we did a heck of a job for a decade and am incredibly proud of what we've accomplished. And a lot of teams started to maintain a group of players – a core – that played together."

Ginobili was truly one of the children of the NBA's globalization, a young soccer player mesmerized over the flickering images of the Jordan and Magic Johnson highlights broadcast every Sunday night at midnight on Channel 9 in Argentina. Commissioner David Stern sold the rights for $2,000 to an eager basketball and soccer analyst named Adrian Paenza, and those images inspired Ginobili to try it all himself.

"When I was a kid, I didn't even dream of playing in the NBA," Ginobili says. "Nobody ever from Argentina played in the NBA when I was 10. I was watching MJ's tapes and thinking he was from another planet, that he was unreachable, untouchable – the same as Magic and Larry.

"And then I find myself, years later, raising the same trophy as they did."

Three times, Ginobili lifted an NBA championship trophy with the Spurs. He is the only player in history to have won an NBA title, an Olympic gold medal, and a Euroleague championship. That'll probably stand the test of time, too. Across the past decade, the two teams that have most shaped his legacy – the Spurs and Argentina – have been reflections of the culture his presence fosters, a touchstone player and leader that fits into environments and programs with precisely what teams need out of him.

Argentina had a core of toughness and tenacity, a 30-something team now that includes Luis Scola and Andres Nocioni and Carlos Delfino. Behind them had been Oberto and Pepe Sanchez. They all played in the NBA to different degrees of success, but Ginobili has forever been the game changer.
"He is my hero," Scola says.

"He took on a huge responsibility, and elevated everything there," Kobe Bryant says. "I admire him."

For all the discussion about how the NBA's desire to turn the Olympics into an under-23 tournament will affect the Americans, there's been little perspective on how this rule will impact the rest of the world. This has been a magical generation for the Argentines, and there hasn't been great young talent rising behind them in the country. In some ways, moving to under-23 will make the United States even more dominant in the Games, because these kinds of generational core groups aren't so easily replaced in the Argentinas and Spains.

"If I was 24 right now, I'd be crying in that corner over there," Ginobili says. "[Olympic basketball] has been one of the wonderful experiences of my life, and I wish that every athlete could have the opportunity."

Ginobili has almost always played for Argentina in his summers, and the Spurs understand that it's cost them a cumulative toll on his body. He tore ligaments in his ankle in a medal-round game against the United States in the 2008 Olympics, necessitating surgery. Yet Buford and Spurs president and coach Gregg Popovich have always accepted that they've reaped the benefit of all those pressure international games that Ginobili played, reaped all that winning and team building that he brought to the Spurs.

As Buford says, "When we brought him over [in '02], we wanted him to bring that to our program."

Ginobili was wired to care deeply, wired to loyalty, and the continuity of the Spurs' core players and values blended perfectly with the Argentine national's.
"The success of this team is chemistry, compromise," longtime Argentina national coach Julio Lamas says. "They want always after a win, like Athens, is that they want to win again."

Lamas was talking about the national team, but he could've been describing the Spurs, too. This is the reason that Buford and Popovich, Tim Duncan and Tony Parker, will be forever indebted to Ginobili. He was a two-time All-Star, an NBA sixth-man of the year, but most of all, he was the player no one dared take their eyes off, full of flamboyance and ferocity, endless grace and humility.

Yes, Ginobili comes out of Bahia Blanca, Argentina, and Bologna, Italy, of the Euroleague and San Antonio of the NBA. He's won Euroleague championships and Euroleague Final Four MVPs, and elevated Argentina into the global basketball elite. He comes out of the core of a Spurs dynasty that delivered three NBA titles on his watch, and, rest assured, Manu Ginobili deserves to go into the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame with one of the great collective NBA and international resumes in history.

"He's the poster child for what's good about being part of a team," Buford says.

Ginobili will likely wear his Argentina colors for the final time in these Olympic Games. And for all that everyone wants to talk about the end of the NBA superstar in London as purely a story about Team USA – about Kobe Bryant and LeBron James – the biggest goodbye of all belongs to the three-time Olympian who changed the way the world looked at Argentina basketball, and maybe, too, the way that USA Basketball looked at itself.

As a boy, the NBA stars taught him the game, but as a man, Ginobili and Argentina passed on a refresher on the lessons and values the U.S. national team needed to incorporate again. USA Basketball responded, revolutionized, and Ginobili is forever owed a debt of gratitude. Ten years later, the Team USA gold medal deserves a nod to one of the great basketball givers of this time, Emanuel David Ginobili.

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Paully D wrote: »

Seen these statistics on Twitter the other night:

Steve Nash's pass out of the pick and roll to the roll man scored 60% of the time, which is top out of those with a minimum of 100 possessions. Dwight Howard scored on pick and rolls 74% of the time, which is also the best in the league. So literally the Lakers have the best pick and roll point guard and the best pick and roll finisher in the NBA. But, if you thought it would be OK to just not commit to Nash and guard Howard, well then Nash has a 54% shooting percentage in that situation. Also, you can't trap because if you do Nash will lob to Howard, you can't guard the lob because if you do then Nash has Kobe and Gasol with open looks.

They fit really well on paper, but of course games aren't won on paper. Providing they don't end up killing each other (Kobe and Howard could be toxic in the same dressing room, but then you've got one of the best leaders around in Nash) and don't suffer injuries to key players at crucial times (how will Howard's back hold up for instance) then I think they win it all next year. When was the last time an NBA team had a 4th best player as good as Pau Gasol? It's scary.

Pau is a better player than Nash