Mens Rights Thread

Reviews and Books Galore

Glass fused light wrote: »

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Link up the cases of a sexual assault prosecution failing over the defence proving that it was a false accusation by a man or the CPS withdrawing charges once in court.

..No?



I mean what do you expect here?

Glass fused light

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

..No?



I mean what do you expect here?

Well you made the comment here

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

P.S. You are the one thinking that I was talking about females making false accusations against men

So what was i expecting ?

Exactly what you posted.

Reviews and Books Galore

Glass fused light wrote: »

Well you made the comment here



So what was i expecting ?

Exactly what you posted.

...Okay? Again, I am not entirely sure what you expect here?

Veritas Libertas

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

...Okay? Again, I am not entirely sure what you expect here?

It looks to me like you should expect an apology. Wouldn't hold your breath though.

Calhoun

Glass fused light wrote: »

Have you even read the article?

The police have concerns that they are investigating and sending in files which meet the current disclosed minimum standard of evidence to prove a sexual assault took place to the CPS.
The CPD is changing the rules about what level of evidence is required before the CPS will bring a case to court.
So the CPS has decided its going to act in the place of a jury and stop cases which would have previously been brought to court.

Overall there have been more reported sexual assaults, however the number of actual cases being brought to the courts have dropped below previous historical levels and your conclusion was the cases which are being rejected have all been deemend false by the CPS?

And PS not all sexual assault victims are female.

The CPS are a law unto themselves, a year ago they got found out for actually withholding evidence that exonerated sexual assault.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/13/men-may-have-wrongly-jailed-withheld-evidence-head-cps-concedes/

I would suspect the reason they are dropping cases is linked to the above.

Veritas Libertas

Calhoun wrote: »

I would suspect the reason they are dropping cases is linked to the above.

It is documented by individual survivors of this system in this short documentary by Patrick Graham.

You would be shocked how far individual cases went on mere speculation, that was easily disproved with simple evidence. It sounds ridiculous how far some of those cases went, because at the time the police were trained to believe the accuser.

Glass fused light

Veritas Libertas wrote: »

It looks to me like you should expect an apology. Wouldn't hold your breath though.

So do explain what exactly do you think the apology should be for?

Veritas Libertas

Glass fused light wrote: »

So do explain what exactly do you think the apology should be for?

For you assuming the previous poster was referring to victims only as women.

Glass fused light wrote: »

And PS not all sexual assault victims are female.

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

P.S. You are the one thinking that I was talking about females making false accusations against men

Also for doubling down instead of apologizing at this point...

Glass fused light wrote: »

Link up the cases of a sexual assault prosecution failing over the defence proving that it was a false accusation by a man or the CPS withdrawing charges once in court.

Glass fused light

Calhoun wrote: »

The CPS are a law unto themselves, a year ago they got found out for actually withholding evidence that exonerated sexual assault.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/13/men-may-have-wrongly-jailed-withheld-evidence-head-cps-concedes/

I would suspect the reason they are dropping cases is linked to the above.

The UK CPS failed to do their duty and review the evidence and quite rightly got their arses handed to them in the last few cases public cases which went to trial.

Eg ) in the uni case L i a m A ( per the article ) it was found that the witnesse/victim lied and the proof was in the communications to a friend. So was the friend ever interviewed or did the police fail to take a full statement or not check out the details or just go in blind on trust and the same with the CPS?

Similar in the case in the link had they reviewed the evidence and decided to withhold it from the defence?
There are 2 problems had the police and the CPS both supposedly seen the same evidence and ignored it?
My understaning is that to not hand over evidence the CPS would have had to given a commitment to the court that it was not relevant. so either they knowingly lied or someone in the police lied to them

So that review needs to focus on why the CPS is failing to disclose gathered evidence once they have committed to going to trial. And indeed why they are failing to look at their own evidence.

That responsibility was on the CPS, not on the victims who are now being denied any hope of justice.

As for policy of being forced to hand over their social media access and phones for a history before the CPS will look at the other evidence?  That's evidence that the attacker now and would always have been given access to if the disclosure of evidence was being preformed correctly. A blanket demand for this type of proof of innocent for a witness will exclude a lot of people from the system because who in their right minded is going to give their attacker access to their digital information.

And yes that blankets demand will create more work as they will need someone to read the data collected. Here is an idea of they are publicly saying they are not even going to look at the information don't collect it.
Leave it as an option that the defence always has the right to look for the data from the victim.
Collecting the data and not looking at it is wrong.



However, in this newspaper report the police have raised a concern about what they are seeing when they look at the stats, a 65% rejection rate. If they are still just gathering the evidence without forming an opinion that there is a case to answer for, rather than just pushing it out to the CPS, then why are they raising concerns?

The police appear to believe that they have done their job correctly and gatherd the appropriate evidence per the agreeded policy and proceedure and sent it off for the CPS. Yet the CPS is looking at evidence and rejecting 65% of the cases and not forwarding the cases for prosecution nor giving the police feed back on why?

If the CPS is in the process of being brought to court for not prosecuting sex crimes because they are afraid of the costs the value for money review or want sure things it is failing to function for the people it should be serving.

The CPS is not being upfront about the policy changes is a problem If its risk based what are they choosing go factor in or out
If they are pushing the "we won't prosecuted" attitude in road shows based on not evidence but the likability of the victim its just wrong

If its looking at how the jury will will assess the evidence against the proof the evidence supplies the it becomes a multitiered selection process of guessing the nice middle class victim will gain more sympathy than the rougher working class one etc.

If the CPS is doing this type of push back against the police forces who are collecting the expected level of evidence why are police resources going to be allocated against complaints they know the CPS wont look at, at all?

Glass fused light

Veritas Libertas wrote: »

For you assuming the previous poster was referring to victims only as women.





Also for doubling down instead of apologizing at this point...

Will fine, where is the evidence that men who made false allegations of sexual assault against either men or women may have resulted in the CPS changing their decision making process?

Veritas Libertas

Glass fused light wrote: »

Will fine, where is the evidence that men who made false allegations of sexual assault against either men or women may have resulted in the CPS changing their decision making process?

What relevance does that have to anything?

I'd guess that men don't make as many false allegations of sexual assault as women. I'm open to correction.

Men definitely seem to be a higher percentage of victim in these kinds of cases.

Calhoun

Glass fused light wrote: »

The UK CPS failed to do their duty and review the evidence and quite rightly got their arses handed to them in the last few cases public cases which went to trial.

Eg ) in the uni case L i a m A ( per the article ) it was found that the witnesse/victim lied and the proof was in the communications to a friend. So was the friend ever interviewed or did the police fail to take a full statement or not check out the details or just go in blind on trust and the same with the CPS?

Similar in the case in the link had they reviewed the evidence and decided to withhold it from the defence?
There are 2 problems had the police and the CPS both supposedly seen the same evidence and ignored it?
My understaning is that to not hand over evidence the CPS would have had to given a commitment to the court that it was not relevant. so either they knowingly lied or someone in the police lied to them

So that review needs to focus on why the CPS is failing to disclose gathered evidence once they have committed to going to trial. And indeed why they are failing to look at their own evidence.

That responsibility was on the CPS, not on the victims who are now being denied any hope of justice.

As for policy of being forced to hand over their social media access and phones for a history before the CPS will look at the other evidence?  That's evidence that the attacker now and would always have been given access to if the disclosure of evidence was being preformed correctly. A blanket demand for this type of proof of innocent for a witness will exclude a lot of people from the system because who in their right minded is going to give their attacker access to their digital information.

And yes that blankets demand will create more work as they will need someone to read the data collected. Here is an idea of they are publicly saying they are not even going to look at the information don't collect it.
Leave it as an option that the defence always has the right to look for the data from the victim.
Collecting the data and not looking at it is wrong.



However, in this newspaper report the police have raised a concern about what they are seeing when they look at the stats, a 65% rejection rate. If they are still just gathering the evidence without forming an opinion that there is a case to answer for, rather than just pushing it out to the CPS, then why are they raising concerns?

The police appear to believe that they have done their job correctly and gatherd the appropriate evidence per the agreeded policy and proceedure and sent it off for the CPS. Yet the CPS is looking at evidence and rejecting 65% of the cases and not forwarding the cases for prosecution nor giving the police feed back on why?

If the CPS is in the process of being brought to court for not prosecuting sex crimes because they are afraid of the costs the value for money review or want sure things it is failing to function for the people it should be serving.

The CPS is not being upfront about the policy changes is a problem If its risk based what are they choosing go factor in or out
If they are pushing the "we won't prosecuted" attitude in road shows based on not evidence but the likability of the victim its just wrong

If its looking at how the jury will will assess the evidence against the proof the evidence supplies the it becomes a multitiered selection process of guessing the nice middle class victim will gain more sympathy than the rougher working class one etc.

If the CPS is doing this type of push back against the police forces who are collecting the expected level of evidence why are police resources going to be allocated against complaints they know the CPS wont look at, at all?

Both acts are wrong and i weigh them both equally in saying that the CPS is a joke.

Reviews and Books Galore

Glass fused light wrote: »

Will fine, where is the evidence that men who made false allegations of sexual assault against either men or women may have resulted in the CPS changing their decision making process?

I think it's more to do with the rise of drinking alcohol equals rape. So, technically, it could be classed as rape, but it's absurd to say consensual sex between two people under the influence of alcohol is rape. That's my two cents and my reading between the lines.



So, technically it could be within the guidelines of rape, but it's absurd that it is in anyway being classed as rape.

iptba

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Under pressure: Why it's time to talk about men, food and body image

Christopher Eccleston’s frank admission that he’s struggled with an eating disorder has prompted other men to open up about their body image issues. Caomhan Keane reports on a topic that’s still taboo

https://www.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/health-features/under-pressure-why-its-time-to-talk-about-men-food-and-body-image-38532569.html

One eyed Jack

I think we could start to see more of these types of cases in the media -


A PARENTS’ ROW over the enrolment of their daughter in a Co Clare school has resulted in the school being ordered to pay the father €3,500 compensation in a discrimination case.

This follows the Workplace Relations Commission (WRC) upholding the girl’s father’s claim that he was treated less favourably by the secondary school’s Board of Management (BOM) than the mother of their daughter because he is a man and she is a woman concerning their daughter’s enrolment.

The father took the gender discrimination case under the Equal Status Act against the school BOM after the school enrolled the girl for the 2017/18 school year without his consent.

The parents are estranged and share joint legal guardianship of their daughter.

Along with ordering the school’s BOM to pay the father €3,500 for the effects of the discrimination, WRC adjudication officer, Enda Murphy has ordered that the BOM should review its admissions policy with a view to making any necessary amendments to ensure that the principles of equality are applied to both male and female legal guardians in the assessment of applications for enrolment.


Father awarded €3.5k in discrimination case over daughter's enrolment in school

Veritas Libertas

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I think it's more to do with the rise of drinking alcohol equals rape. So, technically, it could be classed as rape, but it's absurd to say consensual sex between two people under the influence of alcohol is rape. That's my two cents and my reading between the lines.

So, technically it could be within the guidelines of rape, but it's absurd that it is in anyway being classed as rape.

"Rapists who target drunk women cannot be charged with rape under New York law, prosecutor says"

Independent.co.uk

Calhoun

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think we could start to see more of these types of cases in the media -


A PARENTS’ ROW over the enrolment of their daughter in a Co Clare school has resulted in the school being ordered to pay the father €3,500 compensation in a discrimination case.

This follows the Workplace Relations Commission (WRC) upholding the girl’s father’s claim that he was treated less favourably by the secondary school’s Board of Management (BOM) than the mother of their daughter because he is a man and she is a woman concerning their daughter’s enrolment.

The father took the gender discrimination case under the Equal Status Act against the school BOM after the school enrolled the girl for the 2017/18 school year without his consent.

The parents are estranged and share joint legal guardianship of their daughter.

Along with ordering the school’s BOM to pay the father €3,500 for the effects of the discrimination, WRC adjudication officer, Enda Murphy has ordered that the BOM should review its admissions policy with a view to making any necessary amendments to ensure that the principles of equality are applied to both male and female legal guardians in the assessment of applications for enrolment.


Father awarded €3.5k in discrimination case over daughter's enrolment in school

Good news, it's only a pity they had to learn it from a financial perspective.

I hope we see more cases in all public services.

iptba

Johnson finally breaks his silence after backlash

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has finally addressed the outpouring of criticism following the heated debate in Parliament on Wednesday.

Speaking to the BBC, Johnson said:
We must deplore any threats to anybody, particularly female MPs.
Tempers need to come down, and people need to come together because it's only by getting Brexit done that you'll lance the boil, as it were, of the current anxiety and we will be able to get on with the domestic agenda."

https://edition.cnn.com/uk/live-news/boris-johnson-parliament-thursday-dle-intl/index.html

I think a threat to a male politician is comparable in its importance to a threat to a female politician.

iptba

Boy, 5, with autism 'put on record as sex offender’ after hugging classmate
Nursery school pupil Nathan was reported for hugging a classmate and his parents warned he would be placed on a record for the rest of his life, his family claim

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/boy-5-autism-put-record-20173215
It's not clear to me that he will be on any register for the rest of his life. But still, it shouldn't even be an option in a situation like this.

iptba

I wonder what those who have complained about men-only spaces such as Portmarnock golf club (the Irish Equality Authority spent a lot of taxpayers' money on court cases) would say about something like this:

Spanish hotel has ‘no men allowed’ policy, even for visitors

https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/28/spanish-hotel-no-men-allowed-policy-even-visitors-10823754/

iptba

iptba wrote: »

I wonder what those who have complained about men-only spaces such as Portmarnock golf club (the Irish Equality Authority spent a lot of taxpayers' money on court cases) would say about something like this:

They will justify it on safety grounds.

iptba

Deleted User wrote: »

They will justify it on safety grounds.

Okay, though some of the staff are male.

A brave person could argue that a men-only space could protect men from false allegations and the like.

Calhoun

iptba wrote: »

Okay, though some of the staff are male.

A brave person could argue that a men-only space could protect men from false allegations and the like.

It only opened this year and if they feel they can keep open being woman only then all power to them.

Cutting off a big part of your demographic possibly could work if its the only one of its kind.

In time we more than likely will have men only spaces again, or unofficially men only. Once you let the cat out of the bag with segregation it will just naturally happen.

iptba

https://www.facebook.com/rushandluskcrime/posts/704938623316793
Nothing earth-shattering, but it occurred to me that people would be less inclined to answer the door to help a male. People talk about privileges males have but one could say this is a disadvantage males have or a privilege females have.

Similarly, it had also occurred to me previously that if someone's car broke down, they might be more likely to get people stopping to help if they were female.

Veritas Libertas

iptba wrote: »

Nothing earth-shattering, but it occurred to me that people would be less inclined to answer the door to help a male. People talk about privileges males have but one could say this is a disadvantage males have or a privilege females have.

Similarly, it had also occurred to me previously that if someone's car broke down, they might be more likely to get people stopping to help if they were female.

I remember reading a study a few years ago(might be a bit more than that) about male vs female hitchhikers.

I'm guessing you can tell where this is going... average wait time was far less for ladies.
I guess this partly could be 'sexist' and partly that women are naturally less intimidating(smaller).

I'm sure it's the same answering the door or stopping for someone to help with their car.

iptba

From 2016:

I'm a man and I have an eating disorder. That's not a contradiction
John Paul Brammer
Wentworth Miller’s brave Facebook post reminded me how difficult it is for men to talk about mental health and their bodies. But it’s an issue for millions of us

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/01/eating-disorder-men-wentworth-miller

I decided the post this despite the fact that I'm not convinced feminism is required to discuss such issues. (He brings it up at one point)

iptba

148 seconds

Former England rugby player Paul Doran-Jones on Fathers4Justice and his experiences of the family courts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0AUH8cbMmA

iptba

An agony aunt column in the independent.ie.

Response is quite long, but I thought it was interesting to see men's groups being recommended.

https://www.independent.ie/life/family/ask-an-expert-my-overly-critical-mother-keeps-asking-me-about-my-sex-life-38581926.html

Belinda Kelly

October 11 2019 8:16 AM

Q: I am a 20-year-old male studying in college. I live alone with my parents and have discovered that my older sister has ended her relationship with our mother.

My mother hates my sister’s boyfriend and has said awful things to her about him. My mother is the life and soul of the party, spends all her time volunteering and helping others.

Everybody tells me she is a wonderful person. She tells everyone how proud she is of me, but privately, she can be critical. When I was younger, if I didn’t get full marks in my school exams, she would give me the silent treatment for days.

Whenever I get upset, she tells me I’m too sensitive, that I need to “man up”. She’s always says, “I’m your mother, I know everything that’s going on inside your head.” I couldn’t tell her which course I wanted to study because it wasn’t worth the hassle going against her choice for me.

She often asks about my sex life and mocks my father’s sexual abilities. He has always turned a blind eye to how she treats us. He is only interested in a quiet life and spends all his time working abroad or being in the pub. I don’t know how I feel about her anymore. I am so anxious and confused, it’s like I can’t breathe.

Authentic feelings threaten her, so she will humiliate and overpower you to deny them. This is tragic for you as there is no room for you to develop your own identity. When you tried to be authentic, by being vulnerable, your masculinity was shamed. When you show your feelings, she abandons and rejects you.

Trust and nurture your separate self

Find ways to support your emerging adult voice. You could start therapy to support your true self. This would help heal the wounded child and infant who wasn’t allow to express himself. Most colleges provide free counselling on campus. You could join a men’s group to find positive male role models. Check out mensgroups.ie. Draw a huge jar and write in it all the things that make you feel good about yourself, such as exercise, yoga or meeting friends.

iptba

I saw this on Twitter. Minister Doherty retweeted it without commenting on non-gender neutral language so I'm guessing she had no problem with it.

---

Christina Finn‏
Verified account @christinafinn8

Minister Regina Doherty announces measures in her brief: • ‘returnships’ for women who have taken time out of their careers to raise their families who the minister says have ‘bucketloads of experience’ and perhaps just lack the confidence and belief in themselves to return

---

In this case, the vast majority would be women, but still some men can take time out to care for their children or for another loved one, e.g. sick spouse or parent. It would be interesting to know whether they might be excluded in principle or in practice.

Calhoun

iptba wrote: »

I saw this on Twitter. Minister Doherty retweeted it without commenting on non-gender neutral language so I'm guessing she had no problem with it.

---



---

In this case, the vast majority would be women, but still some men can take time out to care for their children or for another loved one, e.g. sick spouse or parent. It would be interesting to know whether they might be excluded in principle or in practice.

Hopefully we won't have to worry about the good minister for too much longer. As the writting maybe on the wall for FG, particularly if its a soft brexit.

Also the next tweet in the chain mentions the below, so i think here she is trying to dial up the "vulnerable" community angle but it more than likely will be open to all.
"similar scheme for ex-offenders, Travellers and those from the Roma community to be announced also."

The other angle to look at is considering how bad the private company is for people on the dole this might not be a good thing.